Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by RemBee76:

Marbury's and Crawford's games benefited immensely from the attention Curry got in the post. I think Lee's did too. This is an observation I can't base on stats, but I think it should be obvious to people who watch the games.

marbury
before curry (04/05): 46 fg%, 35 3fg%, 83 ft%, 3 rebs, 8 assists
after curry (06/07): 41.5 fg%, 35 3fg%, 77 ft%, 3 rebs, 5.5 assists

crawford
before curry (04/05): 40 fg%, 36 3fg%, 84 ft%, 3 rebs, 4.3 asts
after curry (06/07): 40 fg%, 32 3fg%, 84 ft%, 3 rebs, 4.4 asts

yup, stats don't back it up. and obvious may not be the right word.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-10-2007 9:30 PM]

Yeah RemBee, you need to do some work to sell that one. Even before dj posted the stats I tried to draw a mental picture of what facet of the game you were referring to and couldn't.

The only reason Marbury's game is better is because he's playing D and giving the ball up earlier in the clock. That's been several coaches strategy for him before he even reached the Knicks, let alone Curry's presence. Credit his admiration for Isiah for that change. And his greatest natural skill, penetration, is at an all time low.

As for Jamal's game, I can't recall seeing any improvement in his game. I did think he tried to play more controlled the season prior under Brown, but in truth he struggled to adapt and I think it took the better part of the season to show up as an improvement. I liked the direction his game was taken, and I credit Brown for it, but I saw little remnant of the approach last season. That may in large part be due to isiah shifting him back to SG while Brown was playing him more at PG. All told Jamal's game and role here seems as confused to me as ever; other than where he's expected to get hot in the fourth quarter and save us.

As for Lee, it's really impossible to make any assumptions since we never saw him play without Curry. But since his greatest skill is put-backs and rebounding I don't see how Eddy's high shooting percentage and drawing of additional bigs into the paint is an asset to the cause. I suppose one could make the case that by being a poor rebounder himself Eddy allows more rebounds for Lee makes Lee's rebounding production better, but I don't think that's the sort of "betterment" we want for our team.

What facet of the game? I'm talking about Crawford and Marbury taking better shots because the floor is opened up when teams pack the defense down low. Crawford's improvement in shot selection later in the season, in particular, was dramatic and there to see for anyone willing to see it. As for David Lee, its simple. When his man is putting a body on Curry down low he isn't boxing out Lee, who is then able to slip in for those offensive rebounds and put-backs.

As I said, I can't point to stats, its an observation. Although I have said before that the Knicks played their best ball in January and February before Crawford went down, and it so happens that January was the best month of the year, statistically, for both Crawford, Marbury and Curry. February was Lee's best month, Crawford and Curry's second best.

Too small a sample size? This is a case where that may be true. But I would submit, to anyone willing to listen, that when your biggest contributors' best periods of play coincide with each other, there is very likely a causal relationship. Maybe not just from Curry, but he is definitely a big part of the picture.

Ha, ha. He said "big part".

Curry making other players better? Is that a joke?

Ally Eddy has to do is help a team win and he'll silence the critics. He and his buddy Jamal are 0 for 13 in making the playoffs and aren't gonna get cut much slack.

Posted by BlueSeats:

I don't want to take too much away from Curry, he is a very good low post scorer, one of the best in the game. But that is a very specific distinction that shouldn't be confused with something like Shaq being called the most dominant force in the game. Eddy is nothing like that. As you say, he's claim to fame is being one of the best scoring CENTERS in the game. But that's because so often a guy with range is played at PF. At one point in time guys like JO, Garnett, Bosh, Gasol, Dirk, Duncan, etc, would have been groomed for the center position by virtue of their height. Not anymore, so the other good scoring centers are drawn out of competition with Eddy. He almost becomes that best of the centers merely by evacuation of the position by scorers.

Also, with the extended range and mobility of today's players, more and more the centers of the league are not placed in that position by virtue of being able to score down low, but by the ability to defend down low, and that's where Eddy falls so short of his peers. Even 6'5 Malik does a better job in that regard.

So what you have with Eddy is a guy who is at center because he knows how to score down there but not how to pass or defend from there. The skilled players, who at another point in time might have driven his comparative worth way down the scale, have moved to PF and left Eddy looking like a strongman, when really it's a relatively weak position, and one he's only suited to at one end of the floor. He does one thing well, and that's to score from the low blocks, but the usefulness of that skill is highly dependent upon the composition of the rest of the team, and this particular one, (with it's reliance on an open lane for slashing, limited post entry skills and poor perimeter shooting,) doesn't seem well constituted for that style of play. They don't make him better, nor does he better them.

I'm a little bit reminded of Rod Thorn's feeling about Marbury on the Nets: "And he was, too. Better than everyone else, that is. But it all didn't add up to much, did it?"

[Edited by - blueseats on 05-10-2007 8:27 PM]

What is all of this crap? Guys want to play at PF, cuz they don't want to bang with real Centers. They want to be able to take advantage of lesser PF's and shoot jumpers, rather than banging with Centers on offense and especially defense. Eddy doesn't have that problem. He's not only capable but willing to bang inside with centers cuz he's a REAL CENTER and he's up to the task.

Now you can't call guys that are really PF's Centers just because there are few offensively gifted Centers in the league now. KG, Dirk, Bosh etc aren't really Centers and they don't want to be. Curry IS A CENTER, PERIOD. Now he hasn't been getting after it on the boards, blocking shots and intimidating as much as he should, but he's a decent man defender. He's been passing the ball more and getting better at it. His passes aren't leading to TO's it's just not leading to assists, but part of that is the other guys on the floor too and part of it is his not knowing the correct pass to make and when. I believe the more he actually does pass the better he's going to get and we have to keep working with him on it.

In terms of the make up of this team, let's at least allow for some time to continue to develop this team in this direction. It's not a perfect fit yet but there's most assuredly going to be some changes and some of the guys we already have will continue to develop. We have shooters and slashers, so i'm not sure why this team isn't already on it's way toward being a good fit. We can look to add another perimeter shooter and basically just keep perfecting the offense. We have to rely on guys who are young to learn to execute this and develop their games some more which requires some patience. The important thing is that we've just come off a season in which we finally established Curry inside and now we have to continue the process.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by BlueSeats:

I don't want to take too much away from Curry, he is a very good low post scorer, one of the best in the game. But that is a very specific distinction that shouldn't be confused with something like Shaq being called the most dominant force in the game. Eddy is nothing like that. As you say, he's claim to fame is being one of the best scoring CENTERS in the game. But that's because so often a guy with range is played at PF. At one point in time guys like JO, Garnett, Bosh, Gasol, Dirk, Duncan, etc, would have been groomed for the center position by virtue of their height. Not anymore, so the other good scoring centers are drawn out of competition with Eddy. He almost becomes that best of the centers merely by evacuation of the position by scorers.

Also, with the extended range and mobility of today's players, more and more the centers of the league are not placed in that position by virtue of being able to score down low, but by the ability to defend down low, and that's where Eddy falls so short of his peers. Even 6'5 Malik does a better job in that regard.

So what you have with Eddy is a guy who is at center because he knows how to score down there but not how to pass or defend from there. The skilled players, who at another point in time might have driven his comparative worth way down the scale, have moved to PF and left Eddy looking like a strongman, when really it's a relatively weak position, and one he's only suited to at one end of the floor. He does one thing well, and that's to score from the low blocks, but the usefulness of that skill is highly dependent upon the composition of the rest of the team, and this particular one, (with it's reliance on an open lane for slashing, limited post entry skills and poor perimeter shooting,) doesn't seem well constituted for that style of play. They don't make him better, nor does he better them.

I'm a little bit reminded of Rod Thorn's feeling about Marbury on the Nets: "And he was, too. Better than everyone else, that is. But it all didn't add up to much, did it?"

[Edited by - blueseats on 05-10-2007 8:27 PM]

What is all of this crap? Guys want to play at PF, cuz they don't want to bang with real Centers. They want to be able to take advantage of lesser PF's and shoot jumpers, rather than banging with Centers on offense and especially defense. Eddy doesn't have that problem. He's not only capable but willing to bang inside with centers cuz he's a REAL CENTER and he's up to the task.

Now you can't call guys that are really PF's Centers just because there are few offensively gifted Centers in the league now. KG, Dirk, Bosh etc aren't really Centers and they don't want to be. Curry IS A CENTER, PERIOD. Now he hasn't been getting after it on the boards, blocking shots and intimidating as much as he should, but he's a decent man defender. He's been passing the ball more and getting better at it. His passes aren't leading to TO's it's just not leading to assists, but part of that is the other guys on the floor too and part of it is his not knowing the correct pass to make and when. I believe the more he actually does pass the better he's going to get and we have to keep working with him on it.

In terms of the make up of this team, let's at least allow for some time to continue to develop this team in this direction. It's not a perfect fit yet but there's most assuredly going to be some changes and some of the guys we already have will continue to develop. We have shooters and slashers, so i'm not sure why this team isn't already on it's way toward being a good fit. We can look to add another perimeter shooter and basically just keep perfecting the offense. We have to rely on guys who are young to learn to execute this and develop their games some more which requires some patience. The important thing is that we've just come off a season in which we finally established Curry inside and now we have to continue the process.

I think you're confusing banging with steamrolling. Sure Eddy doesn't mind jamming his shoulder into someone 40 lbs lighter than him, but a guy who loves to bang will body up on D and push a guy out of his comfort zone in the paint. When Eddy puts as many guys on the floor playing defense as he does on offense we can talk about his love of banging.

You're trying to paint this warrior portrait of curry that just doesn't fit. The day Eddy has a reliable jumper will be the last day you see Eddy "bang".

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by BlueSeats:

I think you're confusing banging with steamrolling. Sure Eddy doesn't mind jamming his shoulder into someone 40 lbs lighter than him, but a guy who loves to bang will body up on D and push a guy out of his comfort zone in the paint. When Eddy puts as many guys on the floor playing defense as he does on offense we can talk about his love of banging.

You're trying to paint this warrior portrait of curry that just doesn't fit. The day Eddy has a reliable jumper will be the last day you see Eddy "bang".

So you're suggesting that Curry is SOFT now? He doesn't back down on D from anyone. He may not be the greatest defender but man to man, he holds his position. I don't think he's going to turn into Dirk if he adds a jumper to his arsenal. That's just being needlessly pessimistic. Adding a jumper to his game will only make him tougher to deal with. I think it will help his assists and FT shooting too. Overall the main point is that he is a REAL Center in terms of what he can do against other real Centers and how he plays near the basket.

I understand the dislike for Curry because of his lack of effort on help D and rebounding, but don't try to minimize the positive effects of what he does well offensively. He's VERY close to being a player that makes a huge difference in this league and it's a good thing that WE HAVE HIM.

I think you're trying to make distinctions that don't really exist in reality. What is a REAL center? In my day a real center was a good rebounder, defender and shot blocker.

And what's this story about Eddy being a good man to man defender? When Eddy isn't scoring he sits on the bench. If he doesn't improve other facets of his game the day he isn't a 20 ppg threat he'll be a reserve. As is Isiah takes him out for defensive possessions late in the game.

Lets just call Eddy what he is: a good low post scorer. The rest of your imagery is fooey.

Posted by bigbeast:

Posted by BlueSeats:

I didn't see this "better shot selection" you refer to, I saw less penetration than the year prior and declining shooting percentages reflective of that.

Marbury's FG% was the third worst of his career. Crawford's wasn't only lower than the year prior, it was a hair below his career average. Lee's was .004 above the season prior (.600 vs .596) and probably a natural progression for a second year player.

You talk about causal relationships but then don't explain why so called "better shot selection" yielded a net decrease in shooting percentages.

There's a logic to your presumption that Eddy aided Lee's offensive rebounding by drawing double teams, but it's mitigated by his being just as good when playing without Curry, like in summer league and the rookie/soph all-star game.

(as an aside, the real reason Lee's FG% went up all of .004 was because, contrary to the hype of how much he improved his jumper in the off-season, he shot less jumpers last season than the one prior and at a lower percentage.) IOW, Lee's jumper got worse last year and he used it less. That's why his percentage rose .004)

I think this all adds up to a case of your mind seeing what it wants to see.

BTW, even if Marbury, Crawford and Lee had shown the improvement you believe they did, (which stats show they did not) who says it's causal to Curry? Do you ascribe the falloff in production of Jeffries and Frye to him as well? If we take the decline in Marbury and Crawford's production/efficiency and combine it with the drastic falloff in Jeffries and Frye, is that the kind of betterment we're looking for?

Lastly, if Curry really does make his teammates better why is he a net -7.0 for on/off court production?

You can't be serious!? I understand we dont have much of a sample to choose from in terms of Lees production without Curry, but the Rookie/Soph game and Summer league!? This is the perverbial "grasping for straws", dont you think?

It is what it is. If there were other examples to observe we'd use them, but in those instances that Lee plays without Curry he still operates the same way and seems unaffected by him. What can I tell you, that's just the way it is.

It should be mentioned that Lee is also a very good defensive rebounder, and that is not something that should logically be aided by Curry. On the contrary, because Eddy doesn't do a great job of boxing out his own man, Lee has to battle both of the opponents bigs and still prevails. So Lee is obviously a good rebounder on his own merits. Trying to give Curry credit for that is the real grasping of straws.

Posted by djsunyc:

playoff teams:

east:
detroit - built on defense, not built around a low post player
cavs - not built around a low post player
toronto - not built around a low post player
bulls - not built around a low post player
heat - built around a low post player and a superstar
nets - not built around a low post player
washington - not built around a low post player
orlando - built around a center, but is currently just a defensive one

west:
dallas - not built around a low post player
suns - not built around a low post player
spurs - built around a low post player who also plays defense (probably great pf ever)
rockets - built around a low post player and a star wing player
jazz - not built around a low post player
nuggets - not built around a low post player
lakers - not built around a low post player
warriors - not built around a low post player

teams that advanced:

detroit, cavs, nets, bulls - only the pistons and cavs have a low post player although they're not built around them.

warriors, suns, spurs, jazz - only the spurs are built around a low post player, although the suns and jazz have one.

this is the direction the nba is moving in. can you win if you're primary offense is built around post players like curry and zach? looks like only the spurs can get away with it right now (and they have the best pf ever). curry CAN be a part of a winning team (just like almost every nba player) but building the entire offense around him may not be the wisest of strategies.

Advancing teams have ball control player(s). A point guard, a leader. Someone to trust witht the ball.

I dig eddy and am on board with him and the progress he is making. We still overpaid for him but thats what it was and how it works in KNickland.

I think a team that can go to the post and kick it out wins deep in the playoffs come crunch time.
Its not about pieces but how they fit.

Marry Eddy with the right PF and it works nice. Marry Eddy and Marbury with a high IQ player to control the ball and it could be nice.

I can see Isiahs vision but it need be executed!

Either Draft leaders or trade for one! Is Mardy that man?

Leave Nay Nate at home.