Posted by bitty41:

Posted by sebstar:

Man Bitty, would you please stop with this talk of GS being "significantly better" than us. Thats just not true no matter what subjective or skewed analysis you're using.

The Indiana trade is a good point. Mullin was able to move Dunleavy, who is about as unattractive of a player as you'll find in the league, and bring back solid players. I dont see why Zeke cant do the same, and to me the Knicks are a solid draft/and or trade away from being a contender. Especially in the (L)East. Perhaps us "Knicks fans" should concentrate on that instead of rooting for the Bulls in the draft and screaming about how hopeless are situation is.

Question who just won the first game of a playoff series against the best team in the NBA? Yet you still want to make a case for a team that lost 49 games being better.

See I think your problem is that you may focus on the Knicks too much. Only a true disillusioned Knick fan would believe this 49 loss team is one draft or trade away from being a contender.

Never said the Knicks were better than the Warriors. I just challenged the assertion that somehow the Warriors are significantly better than the Knicks ( and I consider that all encompassing, present and future) and have "organizational leadership."

Then again, the Warriors did win ONE PLAYOFF GAME.

Yeah, the Knicks did lose 49 games. Lets just give up like all good fans do.

Posted by bigbeast:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by PresIke:

I was excited about having Barnes when we got him, but at the time he was released he was not doing jack for the team. I'm not exactly certain that all of the fault should lay upon Isiah either. The coach is certainly accountable as well. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-23-2007 12:15 AM]

Matt Barnes said his biggest credit to his improved play is Nelson giving him a defined role and telling him to work on shooting 3's. The problem with this franchise no role player really has a defined role at least not until this yr maybe. Just think if ISAYUGH waived a guy everytime that player never did well from the start. Shouldn't Jeffries have been waived if that's the case, what about Jerome James or the Channing Frye of this yr? One of Barnes' strength is defense and I'd wager he played just as good of defense as Jeffries did here.

Wasnt it LB's responsibility to give Barnes a role?

LMFAO not when the GM is telling the coach what to do with the personnell and not when named player gets waived after his 5th game as a Knick. Kind of hard to establish a player's role under those circumstances.

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by Solace:

Anji, the point you miss is that it's one game and Mavs fans aren't sitting there complaining about Dirk. If not for Dirk, they're not the best team in the league. Comparing it to the Knicks is retarted. They're good, we're not. As for pushed around... dude, it's one game. I don't really see your point, if there even is one.

You notice how people who are think Curry is all-star caliber are quick to discredit First-teamers.

Doesn't make much sense to me. Dirk is a proven winner. He could probably be a little better in a few areas... but not many. When he gets his first championship, maybe the unenlightened will finally be quiet. Same goes for Nash. I couldn't believe that people actually were knocking Nash on this board when he won his second MVP. I read comments like 'plays no defense', 'is overrated', etc... yet his teams win and when Stephon Marbury didn't play defense for the first 10 years of his career, these same people weren't complaining. I just don't get it.

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by sebstar:

"raped". Com'n now. Zeke's trades have been lateral for the most part, and thats avoiding being argumentative. Go check Mullin's track record and tell me if he would have inspired any sort of faith to make a good deal.

I dont know what you're getting at with some of the comments in your post. So there isnt anybody on the Knicks that possesses a positive attitude? Frye is positive and cheap. Murphy and Dunleavy had horrible contracts (per Mullin) and they were moved. Period.

This pessimism is blinding I guess. Despite his mistakes, Zeke is a smart and aggressive guy.

Lateral?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You can't really believe that Zeke's trades have been lateral. That's too ridiculous to even respond to other than asking you to review his trade history. Anyway, if you were talking about trading Frye, fine. I wasn't considering Frye an unattractive player, because he has a small contract, and anyone with a small contract can be traded. How about Jerome James? You think he's movable? Steve Francis? Jared Jeffries? These are the guys we need to rid ourselves of. Frye, Nate, etc... are tradeable... BECAUSE they're in their first contract.

See how you're quick to jump to the Steve Francis move...Typical. And who really knows what inner organizational machinations went behind that trade (although Zeke should ultimately be held accountable.)

How about taking all of Zeke's trades in totality. Do that.

If Dunleavy can be moved, Jefferies sure as hell can be moved.

this is how i look at isiah's trading ability...he's made trades with the following teams over the past few years:

chicago, toronto, orlando, spurs, and the suns.

after he dealt with chicago, they immediately made the playoffs and have remained there.
after he dealt with toronto, the next season, they win the division and are in the playoffs.
after he dealt with orlando, the next season, they make the playoffs.
after he dealt with the spurs, they win the title.
after he dealt with the suns, they sign the MVP and win 50+ games the next 2 seasons.

meanwhile, we have yet to break 33 wins for a full season.

so it appears that isiah has given every team he dealt with EXACTLY what they wanted while we have not shown any benefits in any way. that's how i view isiah's trades in total.

Jeffries can be moved? Maybe if packaged with Lee. Compared to Dunleavy:

Dunleavy - 12.8 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 2.8 asts and is a passable three point shooter and a pretty good free throw shooter.
Jeffries - 4.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.2 asts, poor scorer, TERRIBLE free throw shooter, average defender.

Sorry, and I can't stand Dunleavy... but not even close. Frye vs. Dunleavy, fine, probably pretty close. Jeffries vs. Dunleavy? No way. I think Jared Jeffries, quite honestly, falls into the BOTTOM 100 players in the league.

As for the trades, I think dj made a good breakdown above.

[Edited by - Solace on Apr 23 2007 10:57 AM]

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by sebstar:

"raped". Com'n now. Zeke's trades have been lateral for the most part, and thats avoiding being argumentative. Go check Mullin's track record and tell me if he would have inspired any sort of faith to make a good deal.

I dont know what you're getting at with some of the comments in your post. So there isnt anybody on the Knicks that possesses a positive attitude? Frye is positive and cheap. Murphy and Dunleavy had horrible contracts (per Mullin) and they were moved. Period.

This pessimism is blinding I guess. Despite his mistakes, Zeke is a smart and aggressive guy.

Lateral?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You can't really believe that Zeke's trades have been lateral. That's too ridiculous to even respond to other than asking you to review his trade history. Anyway, if you were talking about trading Frye, fine. I wasn't considering Frye an unattractive player, because he has a small contract, and anyone with a small contract can be traded. How about Jerome James? You think he's movable? Steve Francis? Jared Jeffries? These are the guys we need to rid ourselves of. Frye, Nate, etc... are tradeable... BECAUSE they're in their first contract.

See how you're quick to jump to the Steve Francis move...Typical. And who really knows what inner organizational machinations went behind that trade (although Zeke should ultimately be held accountable.)

How about taking all of Zeke's trades in totality. Do that.

If Dunleavy can be moved, Jefferies sure as hell can be moved.

this is how i look at isiah's trading ability...he's made trades with the following teams over the past few years:

chicago, toronto, orlando, spurs, and the suns.

after he dealt with chicago, they immediately made the playoffs and have remained there.
after he dealt with toronto, the next season, they win the division and are in the playoffs.
after he dealt with orlando, the next season, they make the playoffs.
after he dealt with the spurs, they win the title.
after he dealt with the suns, they sign the MVP and win 50+ games the next 2 seasons.

meanwhile, we have yet to break 33 wins for a full season.

so it appears that isiah has given every team he dealt with EXACTLY what they wanted while we have not shown any benefits in any way. that's how i view isiah's trades in total.

LOL. You guys have become skillful at this myopia 'ish. Thats not even close to a legit answer. Then again, I'm just inviting one of you guys to analyze every Isiah trade with a laughably skewed lens. Oh well.

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by sebstar:

"raped". Com'n now. Zeke's trades have been lateral for the most part, and thats avoiding being argumentative. Go check Mullin's track record and tell me if he would have inspired any sort of faith to make a good deal.

I dont know what you're getting at with some of the comments in your post. So there isnt anybody on the Knicks that possesses a positive attitude? Frye is positive and cheap. Murphy and Dunleavy had horrible contracts (per Mullin) and they were moved. Period.

This pessimism is blinding I guess. Despite his mistakes, Zeke is a smart and aggressive guy.

Lateral?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You can't really believe that Zeke's trades have been lateral. That's too ridiculous to even respond to other than asking you to review his trade history. Anyway, if you were talking about trading Frye, fine. I wasn't considering Frye an unattractive player, because he has a small contract, and anyone with a small contract can be traded. How about Jerome James? You think he's movable? Steve Francis? Jared Jeffries? These are the guys we need to rid ourselves of. Frye, Nate, etc... are tradeable... BECAUSE they're in their first contract.

See how you're quick to jump to the Steve Francis move...Typical. And who really knows what inner organizational machinations went behind that trade (although Zeke should ultimately be held accountable.)

How about taking all of Zeke's trades in totality. Do that.

If Dunleavy can be moved, Jefferies sure as hell can be moved.

this is how i look at isiah's trading ability...he's made trades with the following teams over the past few years:

chicago, toronto, orlando, spurs, and the suns.

after he dealt with chicago, they immediately made the playoffs and have remained there.
after he dealt with toronto, the next season, they win the division and are in the playoffs.
after he dealt with orlando, the next season, they make the playoffs.
after he dealt with the spurs, they win the title.
after he dealt with the suns, they sign the MVP and win 50+ games the next 2 seasons.

meanwhile, we have yet to break 33 wins for a full season.

so it appears that isiah has given every team he dealt with EXACTLY what they wanted while we have not shown any benefits in any way. that's how i view isiah's trades in total.

LOL. You guys have become skillful at this myopia 'ish. Thats not even close to a legit answer. Then again, I'm just inviting one of you guys to analyze every Isiah trade with a laughably skewed lens. Oh well.

what was the question again?

all i read was "How about taking all of Zeke's trades in totality. Do that."

Posted by Solace:

Jeffries can be moved? Maybe if packaged with Lee. Compared to Dunleavy:

Dunleavy - 12.8 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 2.8 asts and is a passable three point shooter and a pretty good free throw shooter.
Jeffries - 4.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.2 asts, poor scorer, TERRIBLE free throw shooter, average defender.

Sorry, and I can't stand Dunleavy... but not even close. Frye vs. Dunleavy, fine, probably pretty close. Jeffries vs. Dunleavy? No way. I think Jared Jeffries, quite honestly, falls into the BOTTOM 100 players in the league.

As for the trades, I think dj made a good breakdown above.

[Edited by - Solace on Apr 23 2007 10:57 AM]

Dunleavy also makes about 20 million more and couldnt guard you on Defense. Just dont use the ammo you want to use.

Jefferies is a much better defender and he is just above average at best.

The point is they suck; hence, they both can be traded. Neither is vastly superior to the other.

I don't think GS is going to beat Dallas in a 7 game series. Dallas is far too well coached, and they have all the right elements in their roster. I think they'll win the next 4.

THAT said, the Nellie's got that old school Run TMC flavor going on out there. They hit a lot of contested 3s in the 4th quarter - give 'em credit for making 'em. They have nothing to lose. In fact, by winning 1 game, they're already heroes.

The post-game commentators brought up a great point that I was thinking all along - why the heck did Dallas change their starting lineup? They're the better team, and they shouldn't be adjusting their game plan for the lesser team. Sure, they matched up better speedwise, it negated Dallas's big man game. They have the rare ability to play with multiple 7 footers when Dirk plays PF. Sure, you can have Al Harrington on Dirk, but what, is Matt Barnes going to keep Dampier off the offensive boards... or even stop a soft entry pass? (yeah, they'd play Biedrins, but he negates the running game)...

Posted by sebstar:

The point is they suck; hence, they both can be traded.

Bad conclusion. But, I'll bite. Anyone in the league can be traded in the right package. But you wind up doing one or two things. Either putting a piece that teams desperately want in the package or taking back other team's garbage in return. Jeffries, however, as bitty said, doesn't even really look like an NBA player. His defense is *okay*. It's better than Dunleavy's, but that's not much of a compliment. Average, slightly above average, whatever. Irrelevant. If we successfully find a team to bite on a Jeffries trade and don't get raped in the deal, then I'll buy your argument.

btw, jeffries has a trade kicker too which brings his salary up another 15%.

but yes, he can be traded. anybody can be traded. we got latrell for an old starks, mills and cummings. but latrell choked a coach. it worked out for us.

but sacramento got artest for cheap. and that didn't work out for them.

anybody could be traded but moving jeffries ain't gonna bring back anything of note.