Current Knicks vs. the 37-win Layden Knicks in a 7 game series
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Pharzeone
Posts: 32183 Alba Posts: 14 Joined: 2/11/2005 Member: #871 |
4/14/2007 11:51 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:Posted by Pharzeone:Posted by BlueSeats:Posted by Pharzeone:Posted by BlueSeats:Posted by Pharzeone: True. Two bad teams. I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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bigbeast
Posts: 22333 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 12/21/2005 Member: #1060 |
4/15/2007 12:17 AM
Posted by SupremeCommander:Posted by Pharzeone:Posted by 4949:Posted by Bonn1997: The team Layden pieced together??? Houston and Kurt were acquired by Checkettes and Grundfeld as I've stated earlier. "Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
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SupremeCommander
Posts: 34114 Alba Posts: 35 Joined: 4/28/2006 Member: #1127 |
4/15/2007 1:10 AM
Posted by bigbeast:Posted by SupremeCommander:Posted by Pharzeone:Posted by 4949:Posted by Bonn1997: I'm considering it the team Layden pieced together for purposes of this thread, when Layden technically was GM when Houston was resigned. Blame is often heaped on Layden's shoulders for that $100 million deal, but he obviously can't get any credit for him here. Also, everyone else considers Marbury a Thomas deal, when Layden did all the legwork for that. But my stance will most assuredly change once I finish the Gospel of bigbeast. First I have to get through Matthew, but I will get bigbeast done real soon, I promise. DLeethal wrote:
Lol Rick needs a safe space
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nyk4ever
Posts: 41012 Alba Posts: 12 Joined: 1/12/2005 Member: #848 USA |
4/15/2007 1:21 AM
The Isiah knicks have a ton of talent but that talent has done nothing in this league besides accumulate stats. I'll take the Kurt Thomas's Allan Houstons and Latrell Sprewells of the world over any of the current Knicks. While Thomas/Houton/Sprewell never won a thing, atleast they were in the playoffs and advanced int he playoffs, something Marbury/Crawford/Curry haven't even come close to accomplishing.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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oohah
Posts: 26600 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 4/7/2005 Member: #887 |
4/15/2007 8:45 AM
If you guys recall, Marbury used to eat Ward alive, Curry used to eat Thomas alive, and Crawford had some pretty big ones vs. the Knicks back in the day too.
On the flipside, that squad had one defensive stopper (Sprewell), Houston probably would have dropped 45+ a game, they took decent care of the ball, and they made their free throws. Rebounding would have been close, neither had defense to write home about, the old Knicks were a bit better(They still got killed on open 3's). It's almost a wash, but I would give the edge to these Knicks vs. the geriatric 12 and it goes to 7 games. Geriatrics could win if 4 of Isiah's Knicks go down with injury during game 5. But here is the biggest difference, which somebody above pointed out. These Knicks are mostly young and going to get better. Those Knicks are all radio announcers now. So I'll take this team thank you very much. oohah Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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TheGame
Posts: 26657 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/15/2006 Member: #1154 USA |
4/15/2007 10:06 AM
The point is which team will be better in 2-3 years. IT's Knicks are young and can improve. Layden's Knicks had maxed out their potential. I suspect this will not even be a conversation after Lee, Balkman, Collins, Nate and Curry have another season or two to play with each other and develop their games.
Trust the Process
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bigbeast
Posts: 22333 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 12/21/2005 Member: #1060 |
4/15/2007 10:39 AM
Posted by SupremeCommander:Posted by bigbeast:Posted by SupremeCommander:Posted by Pharzeone:Posted by 4949:Posted by Bonn1997: Que??????? "Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
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Nalod
Posts: 72403 Alba Posts: 155 Joined: 12/24/2003 Member: #508 USA |
4/15/2007 12:44 PM
Isiahs teams would whine and implode in a close series.
Laydens teams while old had battle tested charactor and played as a veteran team. Isiahs Vets of Marbury, francis, Craw, and curry are still immature in many ways. Q is a good character but given his personal problems prior to this year it might be negated. Chaney was a better coach than Isiah regarding x-0's. Laydens teams played in a time when the East was better also. Payroll is up 50% in 3 seasons. Evident progress is when you look back on the Layden teams and think "not there was ateam that played hard and gave it all!" I wonder what could have been had we rebuilt organically by letting contracts fall off and both drafted and manipulated the market with sign and trades instead of starphuching? same old story! Bottom line I think That we may be closer to being respectable. Next year our rookie core is now going into their 3rd year and eddie into his prime. While Laydens teams chock full of vets looked hopeless, we were entering the stage where things could have gotten done. And they were with Isiah. I think Had Isiah gone straight with youth the fans would have been there and we would not have had the bloated cap. A young team with a great young point could have been the start of somthing great. Isiah with his young protege Chris in NYC could have been cool. [Edited by - nalod on 04-15-2007 12:53 PM] |
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misterearl
Posts: 38786 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 11/16/2004 Member: #799 USA |
4/15/2007 12:52 PM
Scott Layden did not have a single productive transaction while managing the Knicks roster that he could be proud of.
Not one. once a knick always a knick
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misterearl
Posts: 38786 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 11/16/2004 Member: #799 USA |
4/15/2007 12:53 PM
The Knicks who made a difference were Ernie Grunfeld's guys.
and he was stabbed in the back by Van Gundy and Checketts. once a knick always a knick
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misterearl
Posts: 38786 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 11/16/2004 Member: #799 USA |
4/15/2007 12:54 PM
Nalod - please, let's not rewrite Knicks history to suit an agenda
once a knick always a knick
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Bonn1997
Posts: 58654 Alba Posts: 2 Joined: 2/2/2004 Member: #581 USA |
4/15/2007 12:55 PM
Posted by misterearl: I guess he has something in common with Isiah after all!  |
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misterearl
Posts: 38786 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 11/16/2004 Member: #799 USA |
4/15/2007 12:59 PM
Layden was horrible. Plain and simple. There is no way to sugarcoat it by fantasizing about any number of "what if" scenarios. Clarence Weathespoon? Felton Spencer? Erick Strickland? Slavko Vranes? Eric Chenowith? Milos Vujanic? C'mon...
Layden got four years. Isiah is moving into his fourth year on the job as of December 2007. If this is about the future and moving forward in the context of TODAY'S NBA, not the NBA of five to seven ears ago... are you really that eager to bring Layden back? and who you gunna trust with the draft... Layden or Thomas? I'm jes' axin. [Edited by - misterearl on 04-15-2007 1:01 PM] once a knick always a knick
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djsunyc
Posts: 44929 Alba Posts: 42 Joined: 1/16/2004 Member: #536 |
4/15/2007 1:07 PM
if the objective was to win games, layden went after the RIGHT type of veterans - all of those guys won in this league and contributed to playoff teams. layden made the RIGHT move in going after dice (dolan probably never let him rebuild).
it backfired. that was his undoing. otherwise, dice + h20 + spree would've been enough to get to the 2nd round, maybe even ECF's. but no "what if's". btw, layden COULD draft (proven in his tenure in utah finding key nba players with late picks). it looks like dolan didn't give layden any shot to tear it down...and it's quite possible that WITHOUT those 4 years of layden's tenure (under dolan), isiah wouldn't have been able to switch gears (somewhat) to get younger. everyone brings up the mandate by dolan to isiah but nobody wants to acknowledge that layden may have been under a bigger mandate. this is not a defense of layden, but if we want to give isiah some benefits of the doubt in certain aspects of his tenure, then i think layden should get some as well. personally speaking, layden was a terrible gm. i don't think isiah's THAT much better. team's sexier but not better. the guy may recognize talent but is pretty poor in terms of team building. but no matter what, as long as dolan is running the show, there will always be a glass ceiling. [Edited by - djsunyc on 04-15-2007 1:11 PM] |
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misterearl
Posts: 38786 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 11/16/2004 Member: #799 USA |
4/15/2007 1:23 PM
djsu - not that I care about what Scott Layden did in Utah, but who are the treasures you are referring to that Scott Layden was responsible for?
C'mon, you KNOW we boys an' all that but... all I'm axin' is that you back these claims up with some relevant facts to validate them. would you really trust Layden with the next draft over Isiah Thomas? once a knick always a knick
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misterearl
Posts: 38786 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 11/16/2004 Member: #799 USA |
4/15/2007 1:26 PM
and dj
if you are suggesting the "benefit of the doubt" be provided to Layden after four years, then why not a consideration.. or "benefit of the doubt (on a curve for the inherited damage) to ANY General Manager who would have followed his unproductive schtick.... after only three years? c'mon bro. once a knick always a knick
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djsunyc
Posts: 44929 Alba Posts: 42 Joined: 1/16/2004 Member: #536 |
4/15/2007 1:38 PM
Posted by misterearl: i would never trust layden and hated him as a gm. but my feelings for isiah's job, well, you know where i'm with that one. recognizing talent is one aspect of gm'ing, just like utilizing draft picks. but you still need a philosophy and concept to building a team. and so far, i don't see any of that from isaih. layden drafted shandon and eisley LATE. 2 players that were KEY contributors to finals teams in utah. and he left utah with AK47, another LATE pick that turned out to be a stud (albeit injury prone). so the guy has shown the ability to draft and scout. |
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djsunyc
Posts: 44929 Alba Posts: 42 Joined: 1/16/2004 Member: #536 |
4/15/2007 1:52 PM
as for isiah, i feel like he was given more liberties by dolan. he was allowed to be more aggressive. i think he was also allowed to go after whomever he wanted. isiah brought in all these players. so far, no tangible results. until the team wins, they're nothing but a bad team. isiah's going to get another 2 years so he'll have 5 1/2 years to show something. we'll see where we are by the end of the 08/09 season.
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BlueSeats
Posts: 27272 Alba Posts: 41 Joined: 11/6/2005 Member: #1024 |
4/15/2007 1:52 PM
True or not, Layden is credited by his father in being instrumental in the selections of Stockton and Malone. This could have simply been something dad did to give his son's career a boost, or, he may have really been a useful scout. He also got Byron Russell with the 45th pick. Shandon was also a 2nd rod pick. Any second rd pick that lasts in the league for 10 yrs is a good pick. Greg Ostertag was a 28th pick. Etc.
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Current Knicks vs. the 37-win Layden Knicks in a 7 game series