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Bippity10
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4/9/2007  4:17 PM
Cap flexibility is only over-rated when you have no chance of getting any.
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Ira
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4/9/2007  4:19 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Cap flexibility is only over-rated when you have no chance of getting any.

Remember when the Spurs who were already good had cap flexibility one year? Who did they get? Nesterovich.
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  4:21 PM
Posted by Ira:

Cap flexibility is much overrated, because when all is said and done, there isn't much out there to spend your money on. The result is you have to overpay. I like Ben Wallace, but he's already on the downside of his career. He's still very good this season. Maybe next season he'll be good, but not very good. After that, who knows. But Chicago will have to keep paying him. That's what cap flexibility gets you.


You know what's really comical about fans dissing the Bulls signing of Wallace, the fact that the deal isn't that bad. He signed a 4yr deal. He'll have 3yrs after this while his salary declines because they front loaded it a little. That's right his salary declines the next 3yrs. This isn't the CBA of 2-3yrs ago when FA signed 6-7yr $100mil dollar contracts.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
djsunyc
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4/9/2007  4:23 PM
Posted by Ira:

Cap flexibility is much overrated, because when all is said and done, there isn't much out there to spend your money on. The result is you have to overpay. I like Ben Wallace, but he's already on the downside of his career. He's still very good this season. Maybe next season he'll be good, but not very good. After that, who knows. But Chicago will have to keep paying him. That's what cap flexibility gets you.

yup, cap room in nyc is definitely overrated. who would want to play in this terrible city where endorsement deals would put you into the $100+ million club?

you need a franchise stud. until you have one, you keep the door open to all avenues, and that includes trying to get cap space. otherwise, you will be stuck in no man's land...like we've been for so so so long.
islesfan
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4/9/2007  4:27 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by islesfan:

What is this begat crap? How far do you go with it? The Bulls used the money saved to sign Big Ben. The Suns used the money to sign Nash. Do they count in judging those trades?

Balkman will be coming off the bench his entire career, which isn't a knock on him because I think he's a nice player but Gay, Roy and Thomas are going to be starters their entire careers and potential all stars.

Isles perhaps I gave you too much credit. You are now declaring you can forsee Balkman entire career after this season while projecting Gay, Roy and Thomas. Could you try and be objective.

Roy and Gay have been starters most of the year and Thomas is now starting for a top 10 team as a 20 year old. Balkman has barely gotten PT this year. I don't think I'm making any outrageous and unsupportable claims.

Once again I am asking you are you projecting their careers based on one year because that is a mistake in the NBA. The NBA is full of starters turned sixth man, turned role players and now out the league. Sad enough in a 3 to 4 year period. I feel I must state again Bruce Browen has started on two championship teams. And doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I think Balkman has better skills then Bruce Bowen. While others started on the bench moving themselves to the starting lineup. The thing about the NBA is not where you start but where you end up and none of that stuff is set in stone.

You said it, I'm making a projection. An educated one based on not just this season but their basketball careers up to this point. Does it mean that I'm going to be right and their careers will play out exactly as I said? Hell no, but right now that's as good of a projection and you're going to get. Roy, Gay and Thomas are all big time talents coming from big time programs and are now starting. Balkman was coming off the bench for the Gamecocks last year and is his few good games this year have been of the bench.

What have you seen that would cause you to project something different?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  4:30 PM
Posted by Ira:
Posted by Bippity10:

Cap flexibility is only over-rated when you have no chance of getting any.

Remember when the Spurs who were already good had cap flexibility one year? Who did they get? Nesterovich.


Remember when the Wizards and Clippers got Arenas and Brand hadn't made the playoffs for a while and things changed once they signed them? Remember when the Heat signed Odom made the playoffs then later parlayed him into Shaq?

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-09-2007 3:31 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  4:33 PM
Remember when Utah signed Memo and then Boozer? When you look at their record when healthy and foundation in the future it looks somewhat bright.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Bippity10
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4/9/2007  4:34 PM
Another thing to note is what djsunynyc said earlier. Cap space in NY is more valuable than anywhere else because people want to play here.

What's more important than cap space is signing people to reasonable contracts that match their talentss. Taht's what well run organizations do. It helps them with trades, siging free agents and saving for the big signing. Overpaying does nothing but give you 5 or 6 guys that you literally cannot trade.
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nixluva
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4/9/2007  4:39 PM
I still think the combination of potential talent will be in the Knicks favor. Tyrus and this years pick vs. Curry, Balkman and their Pick. If they end up with #1 or #2, then it's a landslide for Chicago. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Please don't use the teams current records as any measure of the value of the trade. Chicago is well ahead of us in their team development. It will take us time to get to the point that they're at. Tyrus isn't THE reason that they are as good as they are.
islesfan
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4/9/2007  4:41 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by islesfan:

The bottomline is that Curry isn't worth 2 lottery picks.

What does Curry offer more than the average NBA center? About 8 points, that's it. But he's much worse defensively and rebounding wise and he turns the ball over more.

Is that difference worth 2 lottery picks?

This is the WRONG WAY to look at it. It's not about the point difference. It's about establishing an identity for you team and a focus. You can't really build a team until you have a corner stone. You have to have something with which to build around. All we had was Steph and if we had Tyrus he's NOT something you build a team around. CUrry is the SUN in the knicks universe and that's why Isiah wanted him so bad. Chicago didn't see him that way, which is fine, but for NY which didn't have any real focal point, it solved a HUGE problem.

As we move along Curry will still be a massive building block for this team and unless you are talking about Oden, who still has yet to prove what he's gonna be in the NBA, there's little discusson on Curry's value. He can't be stopped if given room and that's a huge advantage for this team going foward. We still have to develop the rest of the team around him and Curry as well, but it's a clear win for NY in that he is the kind of player that you will find it hard to find in this league. Isiah made the right gamble even if he paid a lot for it. If you're gonna gamble on a player Curry is the kind that you gamble on.

It's absolutely ridiculous and a huge mistake to make Curry out to be a cornerstone and the player to build a team around. In terms of all aspects of the game, Curry isn't even better than most average centers but you want to make him out to be a franchise player that is worth 2 lottery picks.

Seriously, you love to spout how great everything is but you never bother to back anything up with anything but your rose colored opinions.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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4/9/2007  4:42 PM
Posted by nixluva:

I still think the combination of potential talent will be in the Knicks favor. Tyrus and this years pick vs. Curry, Balkman and their Pick. If they end up with #1 or #2, then it's a landslide for Chicago. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Please don't use the teams current records as any measure of the value of the trade. Chicago is well ahead of us in their team development. It will take us time to get to the point that they're at. Tyrus isn't THE reason that they are as good as they are.

So you're teaching patience now being that it took Chicago a long time to get where they are at. You could say rebuilding started with Curry, so this team has another 3yrs before they make the playoffs right?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
nixluva
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4/9/2007  5:17 PM
Posted by islesfan:

It's absolutely ridiculous and a huge mistake to make Curry out to be a cornerstone and the player to build a team around. In terms of all aspects of the game, Curry isn't even better than most average centers but you want to make him out to be a franchise player that is worth 2 lottery picks.

Seriously, you love to spout how great everything is but you never bother to back anything up with anything but your rose colored opinions.

You know between you and TrueBlue I don't know which loves to tell me what I don't do more. If you go and look at my posts you'd find that when necessary I back up what I say. I have no problem getting into details with you or anyone else around here. You don't like Curry as a buildiing block for this team, fine, but that doesn't mean you're right.

Among True Centers Curry is 2nd in scoring, 10th in rebs, 4th in FG %, 2nd in FT attempts per game. Now I know that some of you LOVE to bring up the Per min. production rate and how he relates to other centers in that regard, but what i'll say is that his PRESENCE on the floor for 35 mpg is going to be a huge positive for this team as we progress. He is always a HIGH % threat and when his teammates learn how to get him the ball better that will manifest itself in better production. Vice versa, as Curry learns how to pass better. If you look at his Mar and Apr. Asts he's showing improvement. He's avg'd 1.5 asts from Mar thru now. He's just not consistent enough with it yet.

Now he has some glaring weaknesses in particular he's 2nd in TO's, but like Yao he also get's a TON of possessions and lot's of defensive attention. He's also logging the most minutes of any Center besides Ben Wallace. We know he's not a shotblocker, tho his man D is actually decent. All of this taken into account along with the fact that he's a work in progress, I still believe that he is the kind of player that you spend picks on.
misterearl
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4/9/2007  5:22 PM
nixluva - thank you for fighting the good fight and standing for your point of view with conviction.

No matter the perception of his game, facts don't lie. Curry's numbers from last year to this year show a marked improvement.

Whatever flaws in his game, if he commits to becoming a better pro, those can be also worked on in the off-season.

I don't get the impression, as close as he came to making the All Star team, that Eddy will not improve with a healthy, and more experienced, supporting cast.

once a knick always a knick
islesfan
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4/9/2007  5:46 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by islesfan:

It's absolutely ridiculous and a huge mistake to make Curry out to be a cornerstone and the player to build a team around. In terms of all aspects of the game, Curry isn't even better than most average centers but you want to make him out to be a franchise player that is worth 2 lottery picks.

Seriously, you love to spout how great everything is but you never bother to back anything up with anything but your rose colored opinions.

You know between you and TrueBlue I don't know which loves to tell me what I don't do more. If you go and look at my posts you'd find that when necessary I back up what I say. I have no problem getting into details with you or anyone else around here. You don't like Curry as a buildiing block for this team, fine, but that doesn't mean you're right.

Among True Centers Curry is 2nd in scoring, 10th in rebs, 4th in FG %, 2nd in FT attempts per game. Now I know that some of you LOVE to bring up the Per min. production rate and how he relates to other centers in that regard, but what i'll say is that his PRESENCE on the floor for 35 mpg is going to be a huge positive for this team as we progress. He is always a HIGH % threat and when his teammates learn how to get him the ball better that will manifest itself in better production. Vice versa, as Curry learns how to pass better. If you look at his Mar and Apr. Asts he's showing improvement. He's avg'd 1.5 asts from Mar thru now. He's just not consistent enough with it yet.

Now he has some glaring weaknesses in particular he's 2nd in TO's, but like Yao he also get's a TON of possessions and lot's of defensive attention. He's also logging the most minutes of any Center besides Ben Wallace. We know he's not a shotblocker, tho his man D is actually decent. All of this taken into account along with the fact that he's a work in progress, I still believe that he is the kind of player that you spend picks on.

Define "True Center". How many starting "True Centers" are there that you're judging him by? You say he's 10th in rebounding amongst "true centers" but if there are only 12 "true centers" then that's not very good and you're being very misleading.

Where does he stand in terms of blocked shots? Interior defense?

I've never seen people make such a big deal about 19 pts a game. Lots of players have averaged 19 pts in a season. Very few of them were franchise players. Curry isn't one of them.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Ira
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4/9/2007  5:47 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by Ira:
Posted by Bippity10:

Cap flexibility is only over-rated when you have no chance of getting any.

Remember when the Spurs who were already good had cap flexibility one year? Who did they get? Nesterovich.


Remember when the Wizards and Clippers got Arenas and Brand hadn't made the playoffs for a while and things changed once they signed them? Remember when the Heat signed Odom made the playoffs then later parlayed him into Shaq?

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-09-2007 3:31 PM]

Arenas was a huge signing. Brand was a trade from the Bulls for the Clippers #1. They did need some flexibility to make that trade, but could have easily thrown in someone with a small contract to match. Odom didn't have a great year with the Heat, who really wanted Brand.

But the point is, the situation is getting worse. Top players stay home. Occasionaly you find a good prospect, mostly you're lucky to get someone like Wallace who got $60m for four years. Franchise players aren't available in free agency these days. Guys like Arenas rarely make it to free agency now.
nixluva
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4/9/2007  6:05 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Define "True Center". How many starting "True Centers" are there that you're judging him by? You say he's 10th in rebounding amongst "true centers" but if there are only 12 "true centers" then that's not very good and you're being very misleading.
You know what I mean! Guys that spend the majority of their time at Center. Also guys that really can't play as PF's. Any of those requirements. There are indeed more than 12 guys like that.
Posted by islesfan:

Where does he stand in terms of blocked shots? Interior defense?
I've already mentioned his defense. While that's an important factor, it's not the only thing, so you can't keep him from qualifying as a Center we can build around just cuz he's deficient in that category.
Posted by islesfan:

I've never seen people make such a big deal about 19 pts a game. Lots of players have averaged 19 pts in a season. Very few of them were franchise players. Curry isn't one of them.
In terms of him scoring 19 per, that's not a small thing. He's VERY effficient and he's also drawing fouls. He's also warping the entire defense of the opponent. Once we get it together that will prove to be a BIG plus for this team. No team wants to give up easy baskets and that's pretty much what we'd get if they didn't send a lot of help. See you want this to seem like his offense is of little consequence, but it's NOT. We're not even that good at getting him the ball yet. Likewise he's not yet as good as I think he'll be at passing it back out. I believe we'll get there tho.
Bonn1997
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4/9/2007  6:34 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

one more thing, the pick was anybody BUT bargnani. it could've been alridge, gay, roy, etc.

It's puzzling how hard it is for people to realize that Ty Thomas is irrelevant to the discussion since we were under no obligation to draft him.
Bonn1997
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4/9/2007  6:38 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I have a dream that there will come a day that we won't judge our own personnel moves based on what the moves did for the other team, but solely on how those moves affected us.

We're 55-103 since the trade. I'd rather just have our lottery picks. It's not like Eddy's helping us win games.
nixluva
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4/9/2007  6:57 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bippity10:

I have a dream that there will come a day that we won't judge our own personnel moves based on what the moves did for the other team, but solely on how those moves affected us.

We're 55-103 since the trade. I'd rather just have our lottery picks. It's not like Eddy's helping us win games.

PIcks themselves don't win games either. You still have to pick a player and trust that you made the right choice. In the end We haven't won a lot of games, but this is a longhaul scenario and not a sprint. Last year was wasted, but this year there was progress. Now we take it from here and build off of what was gained this year. As Curry improves and the other young players with him the wins will come. Everyone LOVES D Howard and yet his team is only 3 games better right now. With a bit of better health we'd likely be ahead of them. There's more to it than to lay winning and losing on one player.
islesfan
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4/9/2007  7:17 PM
You know what I mean! Guys that spend the majority of their time at Center. Also guys that really can't play as PF's. Any of those requirements. There are indeed more than 12 guys like that.

No, honestly I don't. It sounds like you're looking to exclude some centers in order to make Curry look better. Can you post a link showing where he's 10th in rebounding?
I've already mentioned his defense. While that's an important factor, it's not the only thing, so you can't keep him from qualifying as a Center we can build around just cuz he's deficient in that category.

The defensive end is half the game. Why do you want to only judge him on the offensive side? Even then he's only a 19 pt a game player while offering nothing else, in terms of a team's offense.

How many 19 pt centers, who are below average on defense and rebounding, would you consider to be Franchise players that their teams built around and won?
In terms of him scoring 19 per, that's not a small thing. He's VERY effficient and he's also drawing fouls. He's also warping the entire defense of the opponent. Once we get it together that will prove to be a BIG plus for this team. No team wants to give up easy baskets and that's pretty much what we'd get if they didn't send a lot of help. See you want this to seem like his offense is of little consequence, but it's NOT. We're not even that good at getting him the ball yet. Likewise he's not yet as good as I think he'll be at passing it back out. I believe we'll get there tho.

Warping the entire defense of the opponent? Are you on crack? Here's the opponents defensive strategy for every game: Double Curry and put a body on him every time he touches it and force him to turn it over, take a tough shot, make a bad pass or committ an offensive foul. This has been going on for awhile now and Curry has yet to figure it out. You call it warped, others would call it smart and successful basketball.

You want to talk about easy baskets? With Curry at center, the Knicks give up more than twice as many easy baskets than Curry gets.

"I believe we'll get there tho"

that's your whole argument in a nutshell. You hope. Take an objective look at them and you would have no reason to.

[Edited by - islesfan on 04-09-2007 7:20 PM]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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