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MS
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3/16/2007  10:38 AM
STEVE FRANCIS-CHAD FORD

Why Isiah made this tradeposted: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 | Feedback | Print Entry

Steve Francis for Penny Hardaway and Trevor Ariza?

Knicks fans, I finally get Isiah Thomas.

But if he keeps making moves like this, I won't have to get him much longer.

There's an old adage in the NBA that whomever gets the best player in any given deal is usually the winner of the deal.


Thomas is trying single-handedly to prove that adage is bogus.


Isiah's goal in every trade appears to be to come out of the trade with the best player -- contracts and chemistry be damned.

Look back over his deals for Stephon Marbury, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, Tim Thomas, Jalen Rose and now Steve Francis. In every instance, Isiah got the best player in the trade (not including future draft picks).


He must believe something like this: "If I have the most talent, the deepest bench, the highest-paid coach, and the most media coverage, the wins will come."


This is a dream scenario for Orlando. The team balked earlier in the week at a similar deal that would've sent Hardaway, Jamal Crawford and Ariza for combo of Francis, Tony Battie and Pat Garrity because Orlando's brain trust of Otis Smith and Dave Twardzik decided, after calling around the league, that Crawford might present the same chemistry problems that Francis did.


They were willing to lose the trade on talent to win it at ever other level. Cap management and chemistry are more important to a rebuilding team like Orlando.

And, in trading Hardaway's contract to Orlando, Isiah gave the Magic his best bargaining chip. He might want to consult Smith and Twardzik in the near future about how to really rebuild a team. The Magic come out of the trade deadline in great shape for the future.


The Knicks? Ugh.


Steve Francis isn't the missing piece. Neither is Marbury, Crawford, Curry or Rose. There's a reason teams are willing to trade these players for draft picks and expiring contracts -- they don't want them.

No one denies their individual talent. What they all have in common is that wherever they go, chemistry disruptions ensue and losing follows. They are me-first players, more interested in the stat sheet than the win column, and they all think they are better than they actually are. They'll give you highlight plays, amazing individual performances and huge number of lottery balls in May.


I can understand why Isiah believes he's on the verge of building a winner this way. He's been drinking from the same cup that David Stern has been feeding us all of these years -- that somehow basketball is really about a handful of individual superstars who can make our jaws drop on the fly.

Stars can win you a championship. In recent decades, the Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, Rockets and Celtics have proved that. But putting too many players on the floor who think they are stars is a recipe for disaster.


It makes you wonder whether Isiah really played on the same team Joe Dumars did in the late '80s. Dumars looked at his years playing with the Pistons and came to the conclusion that chemistry, work ethic and guys who could fill a particular role were the foundation of a contender. Isiah came to the opposite conclusion.
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MS
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3/16/2007  10:45 AM
HOLLINGER

In retrospect, it's clear what Brown was doing. He hated the roster he inherited, which was full of tepid defenders with shoot-first mentalities, and more or less decided to sabotage the season to show off how inadequate it was. The gamble here was that he could win a power struggle with general manager Isiah Thomas to get the roster reshaped the way he wanted. Brown was wrong on two counts -- first, Thomas had owner James Dolan's ear so Brown was never going to win this fight; second, it wouldn't have mattered if he did, because the Knicks had already painted themselves into a corner with all their bad contracts.


AP Photo/Frank Franklin II
Steve Francis and Isiah Thomas are still in the Knicks' picture, but Larry Brown is not.
Thomas saved his worst moves for the summer of 2005, making a series of inexplicable decisions that set the franchise back several years. The most critical was the sign-and-trade deal for Curry, with the Knicks giving him a six-year, $60 million deal despite an alleged heart condition that had other teams running in the other direction. That wasn't even the worst part. The deal required the Knicks to give up their first-round pick with no conditions -- in other words, even if the Knicks' season was a total failure and they got one of the top two picks, they had to turn it over to Chicago. Normally teams include "protection" on these picks to insure against that kind of situation, but the Knicks didn't.

And guess what? The Knicks' season was a total failure, and they got the second overall pick, and they had to turn it over to the Bulls. Moreover, the Bulls also have the right to switch first-round picks with New York in 2007, so this scenario could play out two years in a row. And for all that, the Knicks got the right to overpay Curry for his middling production and fret about an uninsurable long-term contract for a guy who can't stay in shape.

Thomas made other gargantuan mistakes. He paid the full midlevel exception for center Jerome James, who to the surprise of absolutely nobody turned out to be a colossal flop. He traded Kurt Thomas to the Suns for Quentin Richardson, not realizing Richardson's back troubles were serious enough to limit him all season. He engineered a midseason trade for Orlando's Steve Francis that cost one of his best young players (Trevor Ariza) and added a player who had no chance of meshing successfully with New York's two other ball-dominating guards, Marbury and Crawford.

Worst turnover rate, 2005-06
Team % of possessions with turnover
New York 18.7
Boston 17.3
Atlanta 16.7
Indiana 16.5
Utah 16.5
NBA avg 15.3
Off the court, the circus continued. Thomas was named in a sexual harassment suit by a Knicks employee that remains ongoing as 2006-07 tips off, while Antonio Davis earned a five-game suspension for racing into the crowd in a weird incident in Chicago.

TMS
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3/16/2007  11:43 AM
Posted by Solace:

I wasn't comparing the two except to say that you claim Balkman is a future star while downplaying Tyrus Thomas. I just don't see the consistency. I was drawing a parallel between two hardworking players. Tyrus Thomas is being worked into a system slowly. It's not fair to knock a player for not getting enough of an opportunity. The Bulls are trying to bring Tyrus Thomas along at a reasonable pace, and there's no fault or knock to give for that. When Tyrus has gotten the opportunity, he's played hard, performed and improved. Those are good signs. Discounting him immediately serves no purpose other than to protect another TERRIBLE move by Isiah Thomas.

again, I never once knocked Ty Thomas... i don't see where you're drawing those conclusions from... i have about as much expectations about him as i do Balkman & i've stated as much in previous posts (i've said i thought Ty Thomas' upside was Kenyon Martin in his prime, haven't i? pretty much similar to where i projected Balkman's ceiling to be at - 18/9 type production)... but we won't know that for sure until we see both of them do this for a prolonged stretch.

what i don't get is why you hold to the fact that Ty Thomas will be a star when Balkman will only be relegated to a reserve bench role for his career in your eyes? if you compare the seasons both these kids have had, if anything Balkman has shown more.

& this has nothing at all to do w/me wanting to mask over a bad decision by Isiah, that's ridiculous... i don't get why you need to point an accusing finger at me like i'm some Isiah apologist... i'm just trying to be objective... no, i don't think it was a bad decision to pass on a raw talent like Ty Thomas in favor of getting Eddy Curry, if that's what you're asking... how am i trying to cover up something that i know was a mistake if i didn't think it was a mistake to begin with?

[Edited by - TMS on 03-16-2007 11:45 AM]
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Bippity10
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3/16/2007  12:16 PM
Bottom line, is give all these guys(including Balkman and Frye and TT) a couple years before you judge them. The league is riddled with guys that look like stars during their rookie years and then flame out. It's riddled with players that couldn't get off the pine their first few years and then turned into very good players. Patience. We have no idea how TT, or Frye or Lee, or marcus or Renaldo will turn out. We can guess, but we really have no clue.
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martin
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3/16/2007  12:45 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Bottom line, is give all these guys(including Balkman and Frye and TT) a couple years before you judge them. The league is riddled with guys that look like stars during their rookie years and then flame out. It's riddled with players that couldn't get off the pine their first few years and then turned into very good players. Patience. We have no idea how TT, or Frye or Lee, or marcus or Renaldo will turn out. We can guess, but we really have no clue.

you forgot to add Bynum to the list.
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Bippity10
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3/16/2007  12:48 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bippity10:

Bottom line, is give all these guys(including Balkman and Frye and TT) a couple years before you judge them. The league is riddled with guys that look like stars during their rookie years and then flame out. It's riddled with players that couldn't get off the pine their first few years and then turned into very good players. Patience. We have no idea how TT, or Frye or Lee, or marcus or Renaldo will turn out. We can guess, but we really have no clue.

you forgot to add Bynum to the list.

I've already put Bynum in the superstar category
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Solace
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3/16/2007  1:51 PM
Posted by TMS:

again, I never once knocked Ty Thomas... i don't see where you're drawing those conclusions from... i have about as much expectations about him as i do Balkman & i've stated as much in previous posts (i've said i thought Ty Thomas' upside was Kenyon Martin in his prime, haven't i? pretty much similar to where i projected Balkman's ceiling to be at - 18/9 type production)... but we won't know that for sure until we see both of them do this for a prolonged stretch.

what i don't get is why you hold to the fact that Ty Thomas will be a star when Balkman will only be relegated to a reserve bench role for his career in your eyes? if you compare the seasons both these kids have had, if anything Balkman has shown more.

& this has nothing at all to do w/me wanting to mask over a bad decision by Isiah, that's ridiculous... i don't get why you need to point an accusing finger at me like i'm some Isiah apologist... i'm just trying to be objective... no, i don't think it was a bad decision to pass on a raw talent like Ty Thomas in favor of getting Eddy Curry, if that's what you're asking... how am i trying to cover up something that i know was a mistake if i didn't think it was a mistake to begin with?

[Edited by - TMS on 03-16-2007 11:45 AM]

Comparing two players who barely ever play when once is the effective #2 pick who was projected to go #2 and the other is the #20 pick projected to go #50, then doing a ridiculous comparison of both players who haven't PLAYED all that much in their rookie seasons, that the lower pick is as good just doesn't have a basis. Sorry, but I think you sound a little excessive when you talk about a player who has no offensive game scoring 18 ppg.
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3/16/2007  2:05 PM
& i asked u before, what offensive game does Ty Thomas have? see, you make all these assumptions & overglorify players on other teams & have zero confidence in the ones we already have... that's what i don't get.

whatever dude... call me an Isiah apologist if you want to... i thought maybe after all these years you'd know me by now.
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Solace
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3/17/2007  12:20 AM
Posted by TMS:

& i asked u before, what offensive game does Ty Thomas have? see, you make all these assumptions & overglorify players on other teams & have zero confidence in the ones we already have... that's what i don't get.

whatever dude... call me an Isiah apologist if you want to... i thought maybe after all these years you'd know me by now.

I just don't see the point of overrating EVERY Knick that's moderately exciting, while not giving enough credit to clearly superior players on other teams. I've seen you put down a lot of good players on other teams whenever they have any connection to the Knicks (e.g.: players we passed on drafting or players that we gave to other teams in dumb trades). Just pointing out the obvious pattern. I want to talk realistic expectations, not just what you want to be true. As I've said to you many times, if every Knick player is a stud who puts up star stats then we're scoring 230 points a night... but the NBA doesn't work that way.
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3/19/2007  9:30 AM
that's just it, i'm asking u to explain to me how Ty Thomas is in your eyes so "clearly superior"? what has he shown you this year that Balkman hasn't that will tell u he's got so much higher upside? Balkman was absolutely terrific yesterday & yet i don't hear u say a word about it... who's overrating players here, you or me?
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Solace
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3/19/2007  9:36 AM
Posted by TMS:

that's just it, i'm asking u to explain to me how Ty Thomas is in your eyes so "clearly superior"? what has he shown you this year that Balkman hasn't that will tell u he's got so much higher upside? Balkman was absolutely terrific yesterday & yet i don't hear u say a word about it... who's overrating players here, you or me?

Still you. What is there to say? He had *A* good game. I'm glad, but it's still a single game. If I jumped ship on every player who had a single good game here or there, I'd think everyone was KG and Kobe.
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3/19/2007  9:58 AM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by TMS:

that's just it, i'm asking u to explain to me how Ty Thomas is in your eyes so "clearly superior"? what has he shown you this year that Balkman hasn't that will tell u he's got so much higher upside? Balkman was absolutely terrific yesterday & yet i don't hear u say a word about it... who's overrating players here, you or me?

Still you. What is there to say? He had *A* good game. I'm glad, but it's still a single game. If I jumped ship on every player who had a single good game here or there, I'd think everyone was KG and Kobe.

We agree on a lot but I think you're severely underestimating Balkman when you compare him to Shandon Anderson in other threads. He's stronger, quicker, and more explosive than Shandon. He's a great finisher in the open court and a very good shot-blocker. He gets a lot of steals and a good number of rebounds too.
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3/19/2007  10:15 AM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by TMS:

that's just it, i'm asking u to explain to me how Ty Thomas is in your eyes so "clearly superior"? what has he shown you this year that Balkman hasn't that will tell u he's got so much higher upside? Balkman was absolutely terrific yesterday & yet i don't hear u say a word about it... who's overrating players here, you or me?

Still you. What is there to say? He had *A* good game. I'm glad, but it's still a single game. If I jumped ship on every player who had a single good game here or there, I'd think everyone was KG and Kobe.

i love how the rules apply to me when you claim i'm overrating players based on limited sample sizes & you can brush away games like the one Balkman had yesterday to just a freak occurence while ignoring the fact that this kid has shown this year when he gets minutes that he can be a very good player down the road... then in the same thread put a player who hasn't shown as much as Balkman has this season in a different league... nice objectivity there Solace... & good job avoiding the question i asked you about what TT has shown you this year that gets you so excited about him over what Balkman's shown you this year.

btw, where is this "pattern" of me overrating our own players while downgrading ones on other teams that we passed on you're talking about? i said i'd stay calm about Marcus Williams until i saw more of him play, but so far based on what i have seen he hasn't shown me much to justify all the whining & complaining you & others like you have done about passing on him in the draft... who else? so this is the recurring pattern of me not going lolly ga-ga over 2 kids like M. Will & Ty Thomas just to try & cover up the mistakes that our GM has made in passing them up in your eyes? you're severely reaching here dude.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-19-2007 1:04 PM]
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3/19/2007  1:04 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by TMS:

that's just it, i'm asking u to explain to me how Ty Thomas is in your eyes so "clearly superior"? what has he shown you this year that Balkman hasn't that will tell u he's got so much higher upside? Balkman was absolutely terrific yesterday & yet i don't hear u say a word about it... who's overrating players here, you or me?

Still you. What is there to say? He had *A* good game. I'm glad, but it's still a single game. If I jumped ship on every player who had a single good game here or there, I'd think everyone was KG and Kobe.

i love how the rules apply to me when you claim i'm overrating players based on limited sample sizes, & you can brush away games like the one Balkman had yesterday to just a freak occurence & ignore the fact that this kid has shown this year when he gets minutes that he can be a very good player down the road. nice objectivity there Solace... & good job avoiding the question i asked you about what TT has shown you this year that gets you so excited about him over what Balkman's shown you this year.

btw, where is this "pattern" of me overrating our own players while downgrading ones on other teams that we passed on you're talking about? i said i'd stay calm about Marcus Williams until i saw more of him play, but so far based on what i have seen he hasn't shown me much to justify all the whining & complaining you & others like you have done about passing on him in the draft... who else? so this is the recurring pattern of me not going lolly ga-ga over 2 kids like M. Will & Ty Thomas you're talking about? you're severely reaching here dude.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-19-2007 10:17 AM]

I never said freak occurance. But I'm going to take it easy with expectations. I'd rather err on the side of NOT OVERRATING EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WE HAVE. It gets RIDICULOUS. Let's see, things I've heard at various times: Lee is going to average 18 and 14, Curry is going to average 25 and 10, Frye is going to average 17 and 8, Nate is going to average 15 and 8 asts, Marbury 20 and 8 asts, Balkman 18 and 9... do you realize that that's already 123 ppg and that's only half the team? RIDICULOUS. Not every single player on a team can be a star. Balkman can't be a star if Curry, Frye, Lee, Nate, etc etc are all stars, it's basic math, so either you have to give some pull on who is a star and who isn't or you're just not facing reality.

Your pattern is simple: you've knocked every single player that we should've had (but not limited to), including Andrew Bynum, Tyrus Thomas, and Marcus Williams. Quite frankly, those three guys should be Knicks. If those guys were Knicks, maybe there'd be something to cheer for.

For Balkman to average 18 ppg, he'd have to likely be our second option on offense. Any team that has Renald "No O" Balkman as our #2 offensive option is clearly DOOMED.

[Edited by - Solace on Mar 19 2007 1:05 PM]
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3/19/2007  1:13 PM
Lee is going to average 18 and 14, Curry is going to average 25 and 10, Frye is going to average 17 and 8, Nate is going to average 15 and 8 asts, Marbury 20 and 8 asts, Balkman 18 and 9... do you realize that that's already 123 ppg and that's only half the team? RIDICULOUS.

lies... never once said Curry was a 25 & 10 player... i've been consistent that i don't regard him as franchise HOF material... find me where i've posted that one Solace.

i said Frye had the POTENTIAL to be a 20 & 8 player at BEST... if u didn't think those 30 point games he was putting up last year didn't justify projections like that, i don't know what to tell u... FYI, Juwan Howard was a 20 & 8 player once too... does that mean i'm calling Frye a future HOFer?

& Nate? when have i EVER said he'd be a 15 & 8 player? making up lies to defend a nonsensical argument is beneath you dude.

& you gotta be kidding me w/Marbury right? 20 & 8 averages over his 11 year career & i'm overrating him?... wow, i was severely reaching on that one!
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TMS
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3/19/2007  1:20 PM
Posted by Solace:

For Balkman to average 18 ppg, he'd have to likely be our second option on offense. Any team that has Renald "No O" Balkman as our #2 offensive option is clearly DOOMED.

Josh Howard is putting up 19 & 8 playing alongside a 25 & 10 player in Dirk & a boatload of other guys that can score the rock... don't tell me Balkman isn't capable of putting up 18 & 9 if he does what i said & develops a jumpshot... i never said he could put up those #'s w/his current skillset... rookie players developing an offensive game after a few years in the league isn't a rarity Solace.
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TMS
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3/19/2007  1:21 PM
btw, u still haven't answered the question... what's TT shown you this year that Balkman hasn't that proves to you how he's so clearly superior?
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Solace
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3/19/2007  4:57 PM
Three responses, wow. I feel special. First off, some of what I said was, what I thought was an obvious exaggeration to illustrate a point. It was missed. Second, you have said in the past that you invision EC being a 25 ppg player, and some of the other numbers I used before were numbers you'd said in the past, but not all of those. The POINT was that they can't all put up All-Star numbers in the same year because there's only ONE BALL!!!

As for Howard, why do you keep comparing Balkman to Howard? To show that occasionally a gem slips through? Key word is occasionally. Could Balkman be that player? Sure. But it means that one of your other favorites isn't a star, because THERE'S ONLY ONE BALL.

Crappy offensive players becoming good ones IS a rarity. You can't think of the obvious because your attention is focused on the exception. For every Josh Howard, there's 10 other Ira Newbles. It's not to say Balkman can't be that player, but to assume he will be is jumping the gun. Why? Because Lee, Curry, Frye, Q, Marbury, etc... are all stars from what I've read. But THERE'S ONLY ONE BALL.

As for TT2, he's played well, love his energy, solid defense, and his offensive game is more polished than Balkman. There's a lot of reasons to think TT2 will be a better player, a major factor being HE WAS A BETTER PLAYER IN COLLEGE. Plus the Bulls are more likely to be able to make him a key piece of the offense and a starter.

Again, I like Balkman's game. All I'm preaching is patience. Jumping the gun, proclaiming Balkman is a near 20-10 player is as bad as someone predicting that he's out of the NBA in 2 years.
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TMS
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3/19/2007  5:18 PM
um, where did i compare Balkman to Howard here? i used Howard as an example of a supporting player playing on a team next to a HOF calibre stud franchise talent & plenty of other scorers who is still able to put up good #'s... i guess that was just another 1 of your obvious exaggerations that i failed to pick up on? i must be a little slow today.
Crappy offensive players becoming good ones IS a rarity. You can't think of the obvious because your attention is focused on the exception.

you mean like how you're so sure that TT will grow into a good player but Balkman's destined to be a career bench role player maybe? you claim that TT's offensive game is more polished than Balkman's is... i'm curious, what's his go to move on offense at the NBA level? does he have a consistent perimeter jumpshot at this stage in his career? how is he so much more polished as an offensive player than Balkman, who gets his points off his hustle & in transition? if anything, they're very similar in terms of talent & skill set at this stage in their careers.
As for TT2, he's played well, love his energy, solid defense,

anyone who's watched the Knicks play this year could say the same thing objectively about Balkman too, but you claim i'm being an overly optimistic homer in this case... saying Balkman CAN be an 18 & 9 player IF he develops a jumpshot & saying he WILL be an 18 & 9 player in the future w/o any other qualifiers are 2 different things Solace... but i guess u can spin that as me saying he's destined to be a top 50 of alltime HOFer when it's all said & done?
All I'm preaching is patience. Jumping the gun, proclaiming Balkman is a near 20-10 player is as bad as someone predicting that he's out of the NBA in 2 years.

just like i'm saying i choose not to go crazy over Ty Thomas after a week & a half stretch where he puts up some #'s... what's so different in that mindset than the one you're preaching here?
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3/19/2007  5:21 PM
Posted by TMS:

i must be a little slow today.

YEP!
Posted by TMS:

he's destined to be a top 50 of alltime HOFer when it's all said & done

RIDICULOUS! You're hopeless.

[Edited by - Solace on Mar 19 2007 5:22 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
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