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This sporting news guy kills Isiah and the Knicks. Ouch
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Solace
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1/18/2007  4:31 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Rich:

Lots players have bounced around and ultimately found success. Look at Chauncey Billups. So if Lampe, Sweetney, et a are determined enough, they should have the opportunity to succeed with some team, if they have the talent. I don't think they do.

Being better than Layden is not a real endorsement, but I really don't think it's close.

So why mention it? I don't see either GM having any chance of leading any team to a championship from the GM spot, so what's the difference? Like I said, different flavors of mud.

Because I think Isiah deserves a small amount of credit for giving this team a future. He may not be the best person to take the team to the next level, especially as the GM, but I think he's laid a foundation under less than optimal circumstances.

It took him three years and $500 million extra to acquire a few exciting role players, a good center who can't play defense, an exciting player who isn't a star in Lee, some malcontent veterans, and some guys who belong on the bench. Is that really much different than Layden? In three years time, we're now talking about a team that has the potential to be .500. Is that not the same discussions we had three years ago? "With KVH, Houston, KT, Lampe, Deke, etc... we have a chance to be .500 this year. w00t!" Same thing. We got a little younger, but unproven youth now, unproven youth then. I think in time, we'll find that some of our youth has been quite overrated. My view is, we're in a similar spot as we were three years ago, so I'm not sure why Isiah gets a lot of credit. Does he get credit for not completely sinking the team to expansion team level? I guess.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
AUTOADVERT
Rich
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1/18/2007  4:34 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Rich:

Lots players have bounced around and ultimately found success. Look at Chauncey Billups. So if Lampe, Sweetney, et a are determined enough, they should have the opportunity to succeed with some team, if they have the talent. I don't think they do.

Being better than Layden is not a real endorsement, but I really don't think it's close.

So why mention it? I don't see either GM having any chance of leading any team to a championship from the GM spot, so what's the difference? Like I said, different flavors of mud.

Because I think Isiah deserves a small amount of credit for giving this team a future. He may not be the best person to take the team to the next level, especially as the GM, but I think he's laid a foundation under less than optimal circumstances.

It took him three years and $500 million extra to acquire a few exciting role players, a good center who can't play defense, an exciting player who isn't a star in Lee, some malcontent veterans, and some guys who belong on the bench. Is that really much different than Layden? In three years time, we're now talking about a team that has the potential to be .500. Is that not the same discussions we had three years ago? "With KVH, Houston, KT, Lampe, Deke, etc... we have a chance to be .500 this year. w00t!" Same thing. We got a little younger, but unproven youth now, unproven youth then. I think in time, we'll find that some of our youth has been quite overrated. My view is, we're in a similar spot as we were three years ago, so I'm not sure why Isiah gets a lot of credit. Does he get credit for not completely sinking the team to expansion team level? I guess.

I acknowledged that the cost was too high from the beginning. But yeah, I think it's vastly different. If you add a shotblocker to this group, and another perimeter player who can shoot from the outside and play D, and I think this team can contend as the core matures.

The issue is how do you do that with the cap problems and the draft picks traded.

[Edited by - Rich on 01-18-2007 4:34 PM]
misterearl
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1/18/2007  4:37 PM
who traded Rod Strickland?

once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/18/2007  4:39 PM
who dealt for Paul Westphal, Kiki Vandeweghe, Bob McAdoo, Spencer Haywood and Truck Robinson?
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misterearl
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1/18/2007  4:40 PM
and solace, why do you still like the MIA Maciej Lampe?

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Rich
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1/18/2007  4:44 PM
Posted by misterearl:

who traded Rod Strickland?

Al Bianchi
Rich
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1/18/2007  4:45 PM
Posted by misterearl:

who dealt for Paul Westphal, Kiki Vandeweghe, Bob McAdoo, Spencer Haywood and Truck Robinson?

The worst trade was the pick that became Scottie Pippen for Jawann Oldman....Scotty Stirling.
misterearl
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1/18/2007  4:47 PM
Rich - Jawann Oldman, I like it

One woujld think that people would breathe a little easier knowing the history of Knicks draft picks and free agent signings over the past 30 years.

Then again, I'm still getting over losing Lonnie Shelton for tampering with George McGinnis

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Solace
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1/18/2007  4:49 PM
Posted by misterearl:

and solace, why do you still like the MIA Maciej Lampe?

Like? No, just trying to draw parallels. Clearly we were very high on Lampe at first. I think given the opportunity, he would be a pretty good NBA player, but he might be a few years away from that opportunity (the same patience we preached with the Curry's, Jermaine O'Neals, etc... of the world). How about a Channing Frye? Year one we're very high on him, year two, not so much. Have we really given it enough time to see if Channing Frye fades into bolivian () also? We've already had years upon years to evaluate the reprocussions of Layden's moves. Just when he was righting the ship, in my mind, he got canned. Isiah reaped some of those benefits, but chose to use most as assets towards getting "his kind of players" and turned the roster upside down in the process. Isiah has made some flat out terrible moves, but gets instant credit for the same things Layden got nailed for. Where's the consistency? Both GMs have done very similar things. The only major difference I see is that Layden went for players who had good fundamentals and had reputations for being personable and team players. Isiah went purely for athletes. Past that, Layden made better signings and Isiah drafted better. Neither one deserves a lot of credit, since their flaws outweight their positives.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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1/18/2007  4:50 PM
Solace - what were Layden's signature signing's in your opinion?
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Rich
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1/18/2007  4:50 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Rich - Jawann Oldman, I like it

One woujld think that people would breathe a little easier knowing the history of Knicks draft picks and free agent signings over the past 30 years.

Then again, I'm still getting over losing Lonnie Shelton for tampering with George McGinnis

No, they lost Shelton as compensation for signing Marvin "The Human Eraser" Webster.

What you have pointed out, intentionally or not, is that the common thread that runs through the history of the Knicks' terrible trades is their short-sighted, win now mentality. It never works.

That doesn't excuse Isiah, who started down that road when he traded for Marbury, and has also made boneheaded moves. But this team is developing a core to build around.

[Edited by - Rich on 01-18-2007 4:51 PM]
misterearl
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1/18/2007  4:54 PM
Rich - Marbury was part PR and part "there's a new sheriff in town"

It was a bold move to jump-start a morbund franchise. It was cool at the time and few complained.

It's easy to punch holes in the deal in retrospect. Marbury is who he is. He has his flaws... But he is not the debbil.

From what I remember the Shelton penalty from the NBA front office while the Knicks were waving crazy cheddar at McGinnis behind the scenes and the news leaked. I could be wrong.

[Edited by - misterearl on 01-18-2007 4:55 PM]
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misterearl
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1/18/2007  4:58 PM
solace - the only benefits Isiah "reaped" from what Layden left behind were dreck and a bloated payroll

what "benefits" are you referring to?

help me out here
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Solace
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1/18/2007  5:00 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Solace - what were Layden's signature signing's in your opinion?

Doleac for LLE, Spoon for MLE, Deke for 2 years, $9 MM. I thought those were all very good moves.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Rich
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1/18/2007  5:00 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Rich - Marbury was part PR and part "there's a new sheriff in town"

It was a bold move to jump-start a morbund franchise. It was cool at the time and few complained.

It's easy to punch holes in the deal in retrospect. Marbury is who he is. He has his flaws... But he is not the debbil.

From what I remember the Shelton penalty from the NBA front office while the Knicks were waving crazy cheddar at McGinnis behind the scenes and the news leaked. I could be wrong.

[Edited by - misterearl on 01-18-2007 4:55 PM]

That's a post hoc rationalization, imo.

No. They tampered with McGinnis in 1975. The Knicks lost a first round pick because of it. Shelton, who was picked in the 2nd round, went to Seattle for Webster.
misterearl
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1/18/2007  5:01 PM
The only reason we were "high" on Lampe because he was sitting in the blue room for so long and he waved to the crowd on draft night. We are suckers for a good story.

after that it was all downhill

If he was a player he would be playing. He is not playing for a reason.

He ain't that good.

[Edited by - misterearl on 01-18-2007 5:02 PM]
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Solace
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1/18/2007  5:03 PM
Posted by misterearl:

solace - the only benefits Isiah "reaped" from what Layden left behind were dreck and a bloated payroll

what "benefits" are you referring to?

help me out here

If that's true, then how was he able to use some of those pieces in trades? He managed to trade or buyout every player Layden had in the course of two years. I'm not going to say Howard Eisley was an asset, but apparently his contract was more attractive to the Suns than Penny Hardaway's. I do think Lampe + Vujanic + two picks was a major part of the Marbury deal. Van Horn and Doleac were the major assets that got us us TT and Nazr. Did those trades help us? For the most part, no, but Isiah still used (or misused) the assets.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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1/18/2007  5:04 PM
So, what was the penalty for tampering with McGinnis?
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Rich
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1/18/2007  5:06 PM
Posted by misterearl:

So, what was the penalty for tampering with McGinnis?

I already said, they forfeited a 1st round pick.
crzymdups
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1/18/2007  5:07 PM
I agree that the Marbury trade pretty much had to be made when Dolan pronounced that Isiah had to make the playoffs. The team needed a face, an identity and sadly, a legitimate NBA starter.

If Layden had done a remotely passable job with the draft, Thomas would have at least had something to work with in the draft, but Layden traded away draft pick after draft pick and made some ridiculously bad picks when he actually had a pick. If Isiah showed up and we had Nene, Camby, and Mikel Pietrus on the squad, maybe it wouldn't have taken three years.

Instead he had Sweetney and the ghost of McDyess.
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This sporting news guy kills Isiah and the Knicks. Ouch
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