Posted by Solace:

Posted by Michael6835:

The center position is a much different position to be dominant at than the guard position. Dominant centers change the makeup of the teams.
Lets switch this up, who is the special franchise player you think the knicks had a chance at getting. who is this special draft pick that will be franchise ? Saying we could of had a "chance" is bs and not a guarantee ? What franchise player do you think the knicks could get ? See everyone has non realistic solutions. Very few are bonafide stars, you roll the dice on some and get lucky. Indy rolled the dice on Oneal and got lucky, previously he was stuck on the bench in Portland. My whole argument is that he is young and still growing into his role. No one can tell with a certainty that he will not get better. The fact that many ignore the fact that you need to surround him with complimentary players is beyond me. I dont understand why you guys cant see that is what needs to happen. Furthermore if the team goes with that goal which they are obviously doing, we stand a better chance in 3-4 years of getting big names to want to play in NY. If they look at NY in 3-4 years and they see a dominant big man in EC and they see a hustler rebounder in DLEE and Balkman, then you start attracting the players like the lebrons, dwades, paul pierce, etc. They look at the team and see that ok this team is one player away from making it. Right now eddy is franchise, like it or not. Surround him with the right players and this team will win.

The point is that other teams rolled the dice. We settled.

If we had a plan to get under the cap, three years ago, we could've had a shot at Yao (would've required trading one big contract for a shorter one), LeBron, Wade, Carmelo or Bosh via free agency. All players that would change this team. If we had a plan, we could've had a shot at drafting Tyrus Thomas (not a franchise player) and would have a shot at drafting Greg Oden this upcoming draft. If we held onto our expirings, who knows... with some draft picks and young talent, maybe we could've gotten Kevin Garnett. There are a small selection of franchise players and a small selection of players who have the chance to become franchise players. If you don't roll the dice, you don't get the chance. Sometimes rolling the dice means staying put and taking the opportunities that come to you.

We could have drafted Bynum- he might be a franchise talent.

Say part of the lakers game last night- for a 19 year old, he shows flashes.

Posted by jazz74:

many different points of view for this topic. well, let me start off by saying that curry is not a franchise player right now. will he be in the future? i don't know but he is not one right now. he IS our only all-star player so we have to compliment him ( i believe he deserves to go to las vegas). i think eddy is taking advantage of the era of the league. we have a league with versatile big men that can play different positions and no true center. eddy is one of the few true centers in the league and can play the position better than most. he is above average in a league with below average centers, at least compared to the standards i am used to. but he has too many defeciencies to be a franchise player at this stage ( even though lee is a glass cleaner that fully compliments him as well as frye's outside shooting), though i think his passing has gotten better. today, franchise players are the luck of the draw, not like back in the days when you know what you are getting. i mean i thought dujauan wagner was a franchise players as did a LOT on this board. however, i am happy that we have curry because he is a legit threat whereas the other players we have are suspect.

Thank you, this is all I am saying. No one can say for certain that they know for sure he will not be a franchise player. But the goal should be to build around him, therefore if you build and focus your team around him. You are essentially saying you want him to be your franchise player. People jumped on me because they have already given up on this team and on him, they are ready to move on to the next project until that project fails or takes long to develop. It seems no one is willing to give the kid his props, the praise is always followed with a negative comment. Further stating that the kid at 24 has no shot at getting better, then i keep seeing we could have drafted bynum or granger or have a chance at oden. We get those players and we are not 3-4 yrs or, we are 8yrs out. It makes no sense in me why he is getting the raw deal, I think people dislike IT so much anything assoicated with him has to fail. This way you can point the finger and say see. Bottomline, at 24 this guy dominates the center position in the nba. He hasn't figured out Shaq and Yao yet, but shaq is getting old and yao is on the west coast. My whole thing is no one is willing to give it time.

Posted by Armondaone:

I was home NJ talking to schoolmate and we began talking about EC and he brought up and interseting point that as soon as it takes 2 people to effectivly guard a player that player then becomes a star. the average player can be guarded by one player but a star requires a double. and a superstar requires a team to guard him. I know it is a weird concept but I really couldn't argue against that point.

[Edited by - armondaone on 01-05-2007 1:12 PM]

I like that.

eddy is not a superstar yet, but the entire opposing team has to collapse on him.

In terms of Curry being a franchise player lets keep this in perspective. Curry has been in the league for 6 seasons now and this is really the first season that he has played consistently (though the jury will still be out until the completion of the season). Most importantly all of these guys were playing in their first playoff season by at the very latest third season. Really how many franchise players do you see hit their stride six seasons in? Lets look at current franchise players for a minute particularly the big men. Tim Duncan was a immediate impact player, Dirk by his 2nd season, Shaq, Zo both were a force from their rookie seasons, basically im naming bigs who have had success not only regular season play but post season as well.

Keep in mind with his body type your talking 10 years that he will be playing peak performance particularly with centers even Hakeem, David, Patrick, and even Shaq now their best days are usually over by the time they hit that 10-12 year mark. Curry though age wise he's very young he still has put nearly 6 NBA seasons on his body. Now maybe he's gaining momentum but at the same time I think it would extremely foolish for the Knicks organization to base all their hopes and dreams on the idea of Curry becoming a franchise player.

Posted by Michael6835:

How does Bosh change this team anymore than Eddie does ?

Are you serious? Dude, Bosh is WAY WAY WAY better than Eddy. There's no comparison.

Also, what did the knicks have talent wise to entice these players to come here ?

This is part of the problem. No plan. Isiah didn't fix this problem. We didn't make the cap room to get these players, while adding top-level young talent. We added mid-level young talent while removing all flexibility. Not even close to the same plan.

We must be relying on times square bright lights to make players want to come here. If we had salary cap flexibility, its not a guarantee that the stars come here, you have to have something tangible to show players via FA. Assuming money was not an issue, I dont think anyone would sign with us, superstars don't want to be a part of a rebuilding process. You know what that looks like. Atlanta, they had tons of money, Bobcats tons of money. Why didn't superstars go there ? why did Melo, Wade, Lebron, Bosh stay put ? In 3-4 years we should have something tangible to offer.

We're not Atlanta or the Bobcats. The thing is that we had the opportunity to have a solid core, and be under the cap. Part of the reason why players don't just hop to Atlanta or the Bobcats is that I honestly don't hear people saying, "god, I would just die to play in Georgia or North Carolina". However, many many many players would love to play in NY. Combine that with the thought of actually being on a winner, and it could happen. It's no guarantee.

The problem I have with your response is your response is completely targetted to us having mediocre talent and awful contracts (something that has been true since the late 90s), while I contended that we had a three year window to fix those issues, get under the cap while acquiring young talent. We could've still had a David Lee, Channing Frye, Balkman, etc... and gotten under the cap. Those two things weren't exclusive of one another. The fact is we effectively traded away most of our top picks for guys who weren't franchise players. That wasn't smart. Imagine if, instead, we kept all of our picks. Many people on this board think Isiah is a drafting God. While I won't go that far, it's fair to say he's above average. So, imagine what he would've been able to do with a few more good first round picks and then cap space? That's all I'm saying.

And btw, getting back to Atlanta, their biggest issue has been that they have a ton of young talent... that all plays the SAME position. That's just poor drafting. They might be the first team in the NBA history to run a lineup of five small forwards out there at once. A few smarter picks and some better coaching and GMing, and Atlanta, being under the cap with a young core probably would've been a hot spot.

But again, there is no guaranteed success. There are moves that guarantee failure, though. Someone once quoted that you can't win a game in the first half, but you sure can lose one. The same applies to GM moves. Isiah has locked the Knicks in for the next three or four years because of the moves he made during the first three. And that's our reality. A one-dimensional "star" doesn't fix that.

Posted by Solace:

Great post, dj. Bottom line is this: franchise players do not grow on trees. During a decade, a team might only have two or three *chances*, to get one, if they don't have one already. We've already passed up a few chances because of foolish or near-sighted moves. We have no plan for getting a franchise player, and I agree with the above. We're not bad enough to get a top 3 pick (for the future picks we actually have). We're not good enough to be much more than a low seed or miss the playoffs, either. Getting out of the first round probably isn't in our future for years to come. So, the fact remains. Isiah has done everything possible to ensure us being in no-mans land. Some guys are satisfied with that. The rest of us want more. There's time to fix things, but it would take a change in mentality.

As for Curry, I see him more as the center version of Allan Houston. Allan Houston was a great shooter, showed random flashes in other attributes, but never kept it consistent. Ultimately, in his final full season with the Knicks, Allan posted league worst stats for any starter when you combined assists and rebounds. Eddy Curry is on the same track. Terrific insider scorer. Shows flashes, having good rebounding games here and there, or having a game where he gets three blocks. But then you look at his stats and he's among the league worst when comparing positive stats like blocks, steals and assists vs. negative ones like turnovers.

One-dimensional players aren't franchise players. Except in the mind of Isiah Thomas and Scott Layden. Welcome to the Knicks.

[Edited by - Solace on Jan 05 2007 12:04 PM]

Allan Houston is another great example. I actually couldn't decide whether to call him a center version of Allan Houston or of Hubert Davis. (So I went with the harsher example!) Either one is pretty accurate.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by Michael6835:

Well we should all be rooting for Curry to do well. The fact that these players will be available in the next 3-4 years is another story, because even then its not guaranteed. That is not the focus however, it should be developing Curry into an all-star. You build a good team with an all-star and you will attract other all-stars. You need at least 2 all-stars to win the title.

Whose not rooting for Eddy? I think everyone here is rooting for Eddy but some, including myself, he will never be a franchise player because of the many deficiencies in his game. Thats a problem. In professional sports, you can't build a team around a guy that you hope and pray will become MUCH better than he already is and has been 6 years in the league. Eddy is a nice scorer, other than that he has shown absolutely no flashes of doing anything else well.

The funny thing about this whole thread, is that I have given a plan for progressing forward. Everyone that has complained really doesnt have a plan other than blowing he thing up and trying to get under the cap. Everyone has issues with the strategy but no one can come up with something that will yield results in 3-4 years. I know for sure we will continue to improve.

So you're saying your plan is better than anyone who says that we should blow it up, why is your plan better? Your plan is contingent on Eddy Curry improving, which a lot of people have a problem with because you are laying the groundwork for your franchise on a player with a questionable work ethic and has shown absolutely no signs of improving the questionable parts of his game. He's always been a good scorer.



[Edited by - nyk4ever on 01-05-2007 1:38 PM]

i didnt say my plan is better, all i am dealing with is reality. Everyone keeps complaining and bit@#.. about the situation, what does that solve ? You are complaining about 3yrs wasted, and if you blow it up, you will waste at least another 3. My whole argument is build on top of what we have now. The fact that Eddy Curry is the focal point of our offense and the fact that you have to build the team around him makes him the knicks franchise player. Like it or not, call a spade a spade, If the focus is to get supporting players around Eddy, he is the franchise player. Are we rolling the dice ? Yes. Is it a strong gamble ? at age 24, yes.

Glass is half full/ half empty debate I guess. I see your point, I just choose to view it from the half full point of view. The concerns for Curry reverting still exist but I'm willing to roll the dice. No guarantee blowing it up is going to accomplish anything different. We could blow it up waste 3-4 more years and still be at this same point. So why do that ? We have a young core, build around them.