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TrueBlue
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12/30/2006  1:51 PM
Leave it up to the most optimistic poster thise side of nixluva to figure this out. Your explanation is off. No one is rooting for this team to have bad fortunes, that isn't tied to a severing of relationships. While going through such trauma other things will be cited such as Hypocrisy, Double Standard, ESCAPEGOATS, etc etc etc.

I get a kick out of fans like you who pull that card or constantly refer to the HATER category.

I mean I can easily flip it and say you're a fan that's happy with this team finishing 24-58 as long as it betters LB's season and produces hopefully a playoff appearance. Sorry if I'm not a fan satisfied with such less than marginal improvement. I'll say it again the 04/05 team finished with 33wins and this team is staring it right in the face. I expected greater things from this team. The team is 40% into the season and hasn't shown it's going to move head and shoulders above last season's or the yr prior to won-loss record.






[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-30-2006 1:35 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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BlueSeats
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12/30/2006  2:29 PM
I see both sides of the issue here:

It's sad and shocking that we are still so close to the abominable state of last year. OTOH, we've shown signs of fight and promise.

And both observations are fair, and both are truthful. I guess it boils down to our relationship to our future. I think the likely reality for this club is extended mediocrity, something along the lines of Seattle. In those years where the team is motivated and the right system is in place they are capable of surprising folks, but any cessation of momentum, be it WRT coaching or injuries, can derail them and push them out of the playoffs. It's a "fragile talent" that we are just aspiring to now. Every year is a new adventure with no predictable outcome.

For some, that's better than the annual downslide of the Layden regime (though it can be argued that in spite of his failure, a healthy McDyess and Houston are as good or better than anyone we've got now), and for others that's a sad reality that's hard to swallow given the opportunities or owner's deep pockets, and our big-market draw, allow for.

I don't deny that it's "realistic" to say that Patrick Ewing isn't walking through the door and we just have to build slowly and routinely - and we can always look to some team below us and be thankful we aren't them. (Last year it was Portland, who are now ahead of us in the standings. It used to be teams like Denver, Chicago, and Miami, and we see where they are relative to us.)

The thing is, we aren't building slowly or routinely. The process has always been a race to mediocrity, and Isiah has made major gambles via dark-horse guys like Marbury and Curry.

It's also realistic to say that when rolling the dice our best odds might have been to play to our strengths, which with isiah and the NY market draw would mean favoring the draft with high picks, and the under-the-cap premium FA market.

So the glass-half-full guys can argue that Isiah has us on course to be better than what "the worst GM in pro sports" did for us. But the glass-half-empty guys are equally entitled to question what might have been if we played our hand to our best advantage, given our inherent strengths.

Mediocrity isn't a terrible aspiration, but nor does it satisfy.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 12-30-2006 2:37 PM]
SugarRayRichardson
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12/30/2006  2:44 PM
I think what it comes down to is some fans see progress and dont wnat to start all over again and some fans hate Isiah so much that they think the prgress isnt worth him staying
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
nyk4ever
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12/30/2006  2:51 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

I think what it comes down to is some fans see progress and dont wnat to start all over again and some fans hate Isiah so much that they think the prgress isnt worth him staying

Why does it have to be that some fans "hate Isiah so much that they tink progress isn't worth him staying"

Why can't it be that the some fans think there really hasn't been THAT much progress made? I like Curry/Frye/Lee but our GM is building around this trio of players and I don't think it can be done. They are great players to have on your team if you are going to use them to build around someone else, but to actually build around these guys will not get you very far. Sure some years you might threaten to make the playoffs with a team built around this trio, but most of the time a team led by these guys will land you right in the tale-end of the lottery, which doesn't bring us closer to a championship because you are not drafting superstar talent late in the lottery(or atleast very rarely do you find a superstar that late in the lotto)

I really don't see that as progress.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
BlueSeats
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12/30/2006  2:53 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

I think what it comes down to is some fans see progress and dont wnat to start all over again and some fans hate Isiah so much that they think the prgress isnt worth him staying



Your making the case that judging isiah should be based on progress, which is a relative measure, but then you don't even indicate what you consider his progress relative to. For instance, he's yet to have a full season better than the last full season of his predecessor, which was 37 wins.

So one could turn your statement around and say Isiah's supporters want him to stay so much they pretend there is a progress that does exist, while some want a guy who when given all his draft picks and unlimited payroll is capable of giving real progress in 3-3.5 years.
SugarRayRichardson
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12/30/2006  2:56 PM
I'm not making a case that Isiah should be judged on progress. Others have said that i havent. I dont know what Isiah should be judged on. I just know in the summer I wanted him gone but now I'd be afraid if he leaves we go back to starting from square one and a lot of the small progress we have made is lost. I dont think Isiah is a good coach nor a good gm. I think he is sevricable at both but not good. I just dont see any reason to make any decision until the season is over
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
SugarRayRichardson
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12/30/2006  3:00 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

I think what it comes down to is some fans see progress and dont wnat to start all over again and some fans hate Isiah so much that they think the prgress isnt worth him staying

Why does it have to be that some fans "hate Isiah so much that they tink progress isn't worth him staying"

Why can't it be that the some fans think there really hasn't been THAT much progress made? I like Curry/Frye/Lee but our GM is building around this trio of players and I don't think it can be done. They are great players to have on your team if you are going to use them to build around someone else, but to actually build around these guys will not get you very far. Sure some years you might threaten to make the playoffs with a team built around this trio, but most of the time a team led by these guys will land you right in the tale-end of the lottery, which doesn't bring us closer to a championship because you are not drafting superstar talent late in the lottery(or atleast very rarely do you find a superstar that late in the lotto)

I really don't see that as progress.


You cant live life in reverse. franchise players are rare. I havent seen any come out in the last 2 years. Some might argue Chris paul. I would not. So we play who we have and hope for a better chance in the future. And before you bring up this years draft I think it is way over hyped this year and refuse to say any of them including Oden will be franchise players till I see it in the NBA. Certainly Ty Thomas of the Bulls is not looking like a franchise star
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
TrueBlue
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12/30/2006  3:00 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

I see both sides of the issue here:

It's sad and shocking that we are still so close to the abominable state of last year. OTOH, we've shown signs of fight and promise.

And both observations are fair, and both are truthful. I guess it boils down to our relationship to our future. I think the likely reality for this club is extended mediocrity, something along the lines of Seattle. In those years where the team is motivated and the right system is in place they are capable of surprising folks, but any cessation of momentum, be it WRT coaching or injuries, can derail them and push them out of the playoffs. It's a "fragile talent" that we are just aspiring to now. Every year is a new adventure with no predictable outcome.

For some, that's better than the annual downslide of the Layden regime (though it can be argued that in spite of his failure, a healthy McDyess and Houston are as good or better than anyone we've got now), and for others that's a sad reality that's hard to swallow given the opportunities or owner's deep pockets, and our big-market draw, allow for.

I don't deny that it's "realistic" to say that Patrick Ewing isn't walking through the door and we just have to build slowly and routinely - and we can always look to some team below us and be thankful we aren't them. (Last year it was Portland, who are now ahead of us in the standings. It used to be teams like Denver, Chicago, and Miami, and we see where they are relative to us.)

The thing is, we aren't building slowly or routinely. The process has always been a race to mediocrity, and Isiah has made major gambles via dark-horse guys like Marbury and Curry.

It's also realistic to say that when rolling the dice our best odds might have been to play to our strengths, which with isiah and the NY market draw would mean favoring the draft with high picks, and the under-the-cap premium FA market.

So the glass-half-full guys can argue that Isiah has us on course to be better than what "the worst GM in pro sports" did for us. But the glass-half-empty guys are equally entitled to question what might have been if we played our hand to our best advantage, given our inherent strengths.

Mediocrity isn't a terrible aspiration, but nor does it satisfy.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 12-30-2006 2:37 PM]


Mediocrity is awful if you have a mgmt in place whose bottomline isn't tied to a dollar. Look at the Boston Celtics since 1991 what have they been? The Sonics since 1998? You might see the playoffs 1 or 2 times over the span 10-15yrs. It's probably the worst situation to be in because the chance to land that Stud to change everything in the lottery is shot and the team never makes the playoffs but always look like they might have a chance if they catch all the breaks.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TrueBlue
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12/30/2006  3:18 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

I'm not making a case that Isiah should be judged on progress. Others have said that i havent. I dont know what Isiah should be judged on. I just know in the summer I wanted him gone but now I'd be afraid if he leaves we go back to starting from square one and a lot of the small progress we have made is lost. I dont think Isiah is a good coach nor a good gm. I think he is sevricable at both but not good. I just dont see any reason to make any decision until the season is over


I find it intriguing you can't base what standard Zeke should be judged on but make constant bold statements against Bulls fans for signing Ben Wallace and trading Curry based on expected wins and losses.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
BlueSeats
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12/30/2006  3:31 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

I'm not making a case that Isiah should be judged on progress. Others have said that i havent. I dont know what Isiah should be judged on.

Hey, you brought it up.

I just know in the summer I wanted him gone but now I'd be afraid if he leaves we go back to starting from square one and a lot of the small progress we have made is lost. I dont think Isiah is a good coach nor a good gm. I think he is sevricable at both but not good. I just dont see any reason to make any decision until the season is over


This perception may have been given by Isiah's approach here, of sweeping the place clean of all his predecessor's players, and starting all over, but most GMs don't work that way. There's no reason to assume a quality GM would throw out the good with the bad and start us from square one.

I don't know if Isiah should stay or go either. on the one hand he's a good drafter, which is very important, OTOH I think he's a poor manager of people. His relationships with other GMs and coaches, his relationships with the marketing department, and certain players, etc, all concern me a lot.

In the same way Marbury can have some good games but I'll never really trust him, I feel the same way of Isiah. He can draft but I'm far from convinced our circus days are behind us.
SugarRayRichardson
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12/30/2006  3:36 PM
Well Dolan made it clear on Mike and the Mad dog that Isiah will be here the full season no matter what so it doesnt really matter what we think now. We will have to wait till the end of the season to decide. If we win 38 games, or make the playoffs I'd resign him for 1 year at a time. No more long term contracts
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
BlueSeats
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12/30/2006  3:40 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Well Dolan made it clear on Mike and the Mad dog that Isiah will be here the full season no matter what so it doesnt really matter what we think now. We will have to wait till the end of the season to decide. If we win 38 games, or make the playoffs I'd resign him for 1 year at a time. No more long term contracts


Ah, cuz 3.5 years later that will be your "progress" over Layden's 37 games...
joec32033
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12/30/2006  3:42 PM
I just know in the summer I wanted him gone but now I'd be afraid if he leaves we go back to starting from square one and a lot of the small progress we have made is lost. I dont think Isiah is a good coach nor a good gm. I think he is sevricable at both but not good. I just dont see any reason to make any decision until the season is over


This perception may have been given by Isiah's approach here, of sweeping the place clean of all his predecessor's players, and starting all over, but most GMs don't work that way. There's no reason to assume a quality GM would throw out the good with the bad and start us from square one.

I don't want to butt in, however, I believe that idea was first presented by Dolan when he said even if Isiah does have a bad season he would have to weigh the options of starting all over again with a new GM.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12132006/sports/knicks/lame_duck_isiah_not_cooked_yet_knicks_marc_berman.htm?page=2
However, one new positive element in Thomas' favor was revealed yesterday. Dolan added a new criterion to the mix, saying he also has to judge whether keeping Thomas beats "the alternative" of "starting over."

"You also have to take into account what the alternative is," Dolan said. "You're saying we have to restart again. That would essentially mean blowing up this organization in terms of who's working here, bringing in a new philosophy of play, new coach."
~You can't run from who you are.~
SugarRayRichardson
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12/30/2006  3:47 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Well Dolan made it clear on Mike and the Mad dog that Isiah will be here the full season no matter what so it doesnt really matter what we think now. We will have to wait till the end of the season to decide. If we win 38 games, or make the playoffs I'd resign him for 1 year at a time. No more long term contracts


Ah, cuz 3.5 years later that will be your "progress" over Layden's 37 games...

You are looking at him as a GM. I'm looking at it as a coach. I'm not happy with Isiahs past. I think Isiah is also punkish individual. I just dont want to cut my nose to spite my face. If we are moving in the right direction I dont wnat to go back and start from scratch again
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
BlueSeats
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12/30/2006  3:57 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Well Dolan made it clear on Mike and the Mad dog that Isiah will be here the full season no matter what so it doesnt really matter what we think now. We will have to wait till the end of the season to decide. If we win 38 games, or make the playoffs I'd resign him for 1 year at a time. No more long term contracts


Ah, cuz 3.5 years later that will be your "progress" over Layden's 37 games...

You are looking at him as a GM. I'm looking at it as a coach. I'm not happy with Isiahs past. I think Isiah is also punkish individual. I just dont want to cut my nose to spite my face. If we are moving in the right direction I dont wnat to go back and start from scratch again

He's both. I'm looking at him as the president of the franchise. He's had carte blanche over this place. No sense to trying to characterize that as a coach on a short tether.

How many of us really care who the coach is here? After all, we're on a 5th in 3 years - no time to get attached to anyone.
BlueSeats
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12/30/2006  4:01 PM
Posted by joec32033:
I just know in the summer I wanted him gone but now I'd be afraid if he leaves we go back to starting from square one and a lot of the small progress we have made is lost. I dont think Isiah is a good coach nor a good gm. I think he is sevricable at both but not good. I just dont see any reason to make any decision until the season is over


This perception may have been given by Isiah's approach here, of sweeping the place clean of all his predecessor's players, and starting all over, but most GMs don't work that way. There's no reason to assume a quality GM would throw out the good with the bad and start us from square one.

I don't want to butt in, however, I believe that idea was first presented by Dolan when he said even if Isiah does have a bad season he would have to weigh the options of starting all over again with a new GM.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12132006/sports/knicks/lame_duck_isiah_not_cooked_yet_knicks_marc_berman.htm?page=2
However, one new positive element in Thomas' favor was revealed yesterday. Dolan added a new criterion to the mix, saying he also has to judge whether keeping Thomas beats "the alternative" of "starting over."

"You also have to take into account what the alternative is," Dolan said. "You're saying we have to restart again. That would essentially mean blowing up this organization in terms of who's working here, bringing in a new philosophy of play, new coach."


That's fair, Joe.

But it's no more sensical coming from Dolan.
newyorknewyork
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12/30/2006  4:02 PM
Almost everything this team is going through now. Should have been went through last season. Plus there should be no Steve Francis on it. Larry Brown should have been playing Curry, Frye, Lee heavy mins last season and learned everything he needed to learn last season.

We basically had to start from scratch this season in finding out about these young guys. How they fit in together and how they fit in with some of these vets.

We just now found out recently that Curry, Frye, Lee is probably our best lineup.

We might have the same record with two more losses. But we are at least doing it with a lot more play from the young guys. Curry 33mins 18pts 7rebs, Lee 30mins 10.8pts, 10.5rebs, Frye 27mins 10pts 6rebs (though he is recovering from horrible play early and injury). Nate was playing great in the begining of the season though his play has tailed off.

Last season we had a horrible record with really nothing to gain from it other than motivation to prove that they aren't really that bad. This season we will probably have a better record but we have learned so much already and the young guys keep working hard and improving. We will have gained a lot fromt this season.

For the record I don't care if Isiah is still hear or if he were to get fired. If he gets fired I just hope the next guy completes the puzzle to a championship calibre team. If Isiah doesn't get fired then I hope he ends up completing the puzzle to a championship calibre team.
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BlueSeats
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12/30/2006  4:33 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Almost everything this team is going through now. Should have been went through last season.


We did go through this last season, only with the addition of AD, Ariza, Mo and Jalen. Plus Marbury fueding with his coach and the coach and GM fueding with each other.

And the concept of having to cut dead wood to make room for new growth is not unique to this team. Lets recal that the guys Isiah cut were the guys brown told him to. And when you look at young teams like Boston playing a lot of youth keep in mind it might be different if they still had veterans like LaFrentz, Battie, Blount, Walker and Payton were there. Going young is at least as much a managerial decision as it is coaching.

I still contend that while Brown was interested in giving our veterans a chance at the leadership roles it was Isiah who had the most to gain in justifying their existence on our massively bloated (by veterans) payroll.
newyorknewyork
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12/30/2006  5:02 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Almost everything this team is going through now. Should have been went through last season.

I still contend that while Brown was interested in giving our veterans a chance at the leadership roles it was Isiah who had the most to gain in justifying their existence on our massively bloated (by veterans) payroll.

Of course you do. Because it deflects the blame on Larry Brown, and puts it all on Isiah. But I doubt Isiah agreed with Larry Brown using 40 different starting lineups. Larry Brown did what he wanted to do last season. He didn't do anything he didn't want to do. He didn't listen when Isiah and Dolan told him to stop belittling his team in the media. But yet when it comes to Isiah saying who Larry Brown should play Brown all of a sudden listens to him. Especially in an area that directly will effect his coaching ability. I don't buy it. Plus the fact that Larry Brown is well known to favor veterans over young players. What about Steve Francis, he barley played Francis though Isiah gave up Ariza and Dolan had to eat his contract. If Isiah had control over how many mins the players got then he would have made Brown play Francis a lot more than he did. He only traded for Francis since Brown sold him he could turn Marbury-Francis into Thomas-Dumars. Brown also started a lineup of Curry, AD, M.Rose, Q, Marbury. And only played Lee 16-17mins. I doudt Isiah was in favor of that. He only added M.Rose for draft picks anyway so he can get Lee. Not for M.Rose to be a main part of the starting lineup. And I doubt he cared for Mo Taylors playing time especailly if his prized rookies Frye & Lee were the ones beating him out. Jalen Rose for the most part was added to get us another draft pick and to try and pick up the slack with Marbury injuried. He was probably going to get cut reguardless unless he really had a great season last yr.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
BlueSeats
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12/30/2006  5:47 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Almost everything this team is going through now. Should have been went through last season.

I still contend that while Brown was interested in giving our veterans a chance at the leadership roles it was Isiah who had the most to gain in justifying their existence on our massively bloated (by veterans) payroll.

Of course you do. Because it deflects the blame on Larry Brown, and puts it all on Isiah. But I doubt Isiah agreed with Larry Brown using 40 different starting lineups. Larry Brown did what he wanted to do last season. He didn't do anything he didn't want to do. He didn't listen when Isiah and Dolan told him to stop belittling his team in the media. But yet when it comes to Isiah saying who Larry Brown should play Brown all of a sudden listens to him. Especially in an area that directly will effect his coaching ability. I don't buy it. Plus the fact that Larry Brown is well known to favor veterans over young players. What about Steve Francis, he barley played Francis though Isiah gave up Ariza and Dolan had to eat his contract. If Isiah had control over how many mins the players got then he would have made Brown play Francis a lot more than he did. He only traded for Francis since Brown sold him he could turn Marbury-Francis into Thomas-Dumars. Brown also started a lineup of Curry, AD, M.Rose, Q, Marbury. And only played Lee 16-17mins. I doudt Isiah was in favor of that. He only added M.Rose for draft picks anyway so he can get Lee. Not for M.Rose to be a main part of the starting lineup. And I doubt he cared for Mo Taylors playing time especailly if his prized rookies Frye & Lee were the ones beating him out. Jalen Rose for the most part was added to get us another draft pick and to try and pick up the slack with Marbury injuried. He was probably going to get cut reguardless unless he really had a great season last yr.


dammit, I just broke this thing down, line by line, oohah style, and trashed it just before sending it. Oh well, it wasn't meant to be....
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