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Lee or Bogut
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TMS
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12/22/2006  1:29 PM
bottomline is people need to keep open minds on trades involving draft picks until they actually see how the drafted players turn out... that's the only real way to judge a trade of this kind fairly... i can understand killing a veteran free agent signing to an overpaid contract, or a trade to acquire a veteran player that doesn't involve draft picks, because you already know pretty much what you're getting in those cases... there are sleeper picks like D Lee & Josh Howard in just about every draft that can easily swing a trade into your favor.
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bigbeast
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12/22/2006  1:32 PM
Posted by TMS:

i wanted Gerald Greene over Frye... always said it would take a few years to see who the better basketball player ended up to be, so the jury's still out on that one imo.

I'm with you on this. I wanted Green at 7, Ellis at 21 over Nate (there was talk that Ellis was considered a lotto pick until questions about a knee injury came up) and Blatche or Taft at 30. I wasn't mad at the Lee pick however. I was famaliar with his game from Florida. He was a top 20 prospect comming out of Hs and played in the McDonalds game.
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TMS
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12/22/2006  1:39 PM
i had no idea who Lee was so i kept an open mind on it... he's turned out to be the best player Isiah's drafted since T-Mac.
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fishmike
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12/22/2006  1:44 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by TMS:

i wanted Gerald Greene over Frye... always said it would take a few years to see who the better basketball player ended up to be, so the jury's still out on that one imo.

I'm with you on this. I wanted Green at 7, Ellis at 21 over Nate (there was talk that Ellis was considered a lotto pick until questions about a knee injury came up) and Blatche or Taft at 30. I wasn't mad at the Lee pick however. I was famaliar with his game from Florida. He was a top 20 prospect comming out of Hs and played in the McDonalds game.
and won the dunk contest. He also got some coverage at the Chi predaft camp where he was the best player. Its not like Lee was a total mystery. Balkman yes (NIT aside).
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kam77
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12/22/2006  1:58 PM
How quickly everyone diminishes Channing. He just had a 30pt game people! And it was effortless. Imagine when he becomes more savvy, develops more, he can be a consistent 20pt scorer ala Allan Houston, but potentially better since he also has a rudimentary post game. Gerald Green i grant you would have been interesting, so would Bynum, but were we in a position to draft for guys who were at least three years from making a contribution? This all goes back to if NY can accept a true rebuild with ultra-youth.
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Bonn1997
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12/22/2006  2:06 PM
Posted by fishmike:

bonn.. thats two different things. One is not liking that trade. Another is not liking that pick.

I think that trade sucked. Look around the league... most teams run a super tight book. If your willing to offer $3mm in cash to teams to buy late first rounders (20-30) you can probably get 2-3 extra picks every year. Usually those late first rounders are traded for a lot less, especially if a guy that team liked gets plucked off the board.

Lee being a very good player has no impact on that trade being bad.

My arguements have been we didnt need to add Malik and Jalen Rose and spend the extra $50-$60mm in payroll so we could draft Lee, Balkman and Mardy Collins.

Think about that.

Fair enough. I don't know how often a team really is able to get a late 1st rounder for just $3 mil. I think it's less often and harder than you're making it sound. But Isiah probably didn't have to take back as much salary and as old and slow a player as he did just to get that pick.
TheGame
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12/22/2006  2:38 PM
Posted by kam77:

How quickly everyone diminishes Channing. He just had a 30pt game people! And it was effortless. Imagine when he becomes more savvy, develops more, he can be a consistent 20pt scorer ala Allan Houston, but potentially better since he also has a rudimentary post game. Gerald Green i grant you would have been interesting, so would Bynum, but were we in a position to draft for guys who were at least three years from making a contribution? This all goes back to if NY can accept a true rebuild with ultra-youth.

I agree about Channing. He has the potential to be an allstar level scorer. He has not developed as quickly as Lee but that does not mean he will not develop. I think in two years we will be pleasantly surprised by the type of player Frye becomes.

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TheGame
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12/22/2006  2:41 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

bonn.. thats two different things. One is not liking that trade. Another is not liking that pick.

I think that trade sucked. Look around the league... most teams run a super tight book. If your willing to offer $3mm in cash to teams to buy late first rounders (20-30) you can probably get 2-3 extra picks every year. Usually those late first rounders are traded for a lot less, especially if a guy that team liked gets plucked off the board.

Lee being a very good player has no impact on that trade being bad.

My arguements have been we didnt need to add Malik and Jalen Rose and spend the extra $50-$60mm in payroll so we could draft Lee, Balkman and Mardy Collins.

Think about that.

Fair enough. I don't know how often a team really is able to get a late 1st rounder for just $3 mil. I think it's less often and harder than you're making it sound. But Isiah probably didn't have to take back as much salary and as old and slow a player as he did just to get that pick.

I would tend to agree. Teams are not just giving away 1st round picks. The Suns were unique because they had players to resign and did not want to pay the luxury tax. Maybe now that the luxury tax is stronger with the new collective bargaining agreement, it might become easier to get teams to sell 1st round picks, but I don't think that historically it has been as easy as you make it sound.

Moreover, it is a terrible strategy to sell 1st round picks. The Suns could have drafted Rondo or Lowry to a nice rookie contract but instead went out and got a FA pg (whose name escapes me at the moment) for more money. You manage your cap by drafting young players to replace older more expensive players, you don't sell picks to save money.

[Edited by - TheGAme on 12-22-2006 2:44 PM]

[Edited by - TheGAme on 12-22-2006 2:48 PM]
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nyk4ever
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12/22/2006  2:52 PM
Posted by TheGame:


I agree about Channing. He has the potential to be an allstar level scorer. He has not developed as quickly as Lee but that does not mean he will not develop. I think in two years we will be pleasantly surprised by the type of player Frye becomes.

Heres the thing with me about Frye. I like Frye, he's a great shooter and I think he's a good dude, he represents this franchise well but I haven't seen him change one iota from the second he first stepped foot onto a college court to when he stepped onto a NBA court. Frye has always been the same player, a jumpshooting big man, he will get some rebounds here and there. He didn't expand his game during his college career and I haven't really seen him expand his game yet on an NBA level so to me, that makes me think what we see is what we get from Channing. A jumpshooting big man. I'm not saying thats bad, so please don't misunderstand it, I'm just saying, I never saw Channings game evolve for 4 years at Arizona and what I see from him now is the same thing I saw from him in 2001.
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Ray15
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12/22/2006  3:24 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by TheGame:


I agree about Channing. He has the potential to be an allstar level scorer. He has not developed as quickly as Lee but that does not mean he will not develop. I think in two years we will be pleasantly surprised by the type of player Frye becomes.

Heres the thing with me about Frye. I like Frye, he's a great shooter and I think he's a good dude, he represents this franchise well but I haven't seen him change one iota from the second he first stepped foot onto a college court to when he stepped onto a NBA court. Frye has always been the same player, a jumpshooting big man, he will get some rebounds here and there. He didn't expand his game during his college career and I haven't really seen him expand his game yet on an NBA level so to me, that makes me think what we see is what we get from Channing. A jumpshooting big man. I'm not saying thats bad, so please don't misunderstand it, I'm just saying, I never saw Channings game evolve for 4 years at Arizona and what I see from him now is the same thing I saw from him in 2001.

I agree for the most part. However, it looks like he has worked on his post game and that baseline jump hook since he got to the pros. He still has more confidence in the outside shot but given time, he may develop into a nice inside/out player. I think our best frontcourt would be Frye, Lee, Jefferies -- Curry gives up a hell of a lot more points than he scores.
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Allanfan20
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12/22/2006  3:25 PM
You have to trade those 3 for Paul. You can flat out build your entire team around him.

BTW, I think Isiah did great with Nate and Lee, but I think he royally f'ed up by drafting Frye instead of Bynum. I think HEEEE has more potential than Bogut and Lee put together. Now THAT would have been a nice combination.
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NYKBocker
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12/22/2006  3:48 PM
There were some on this board that called Lee the token white guy. Except for Briggs who said Lee is definately not a token white guy but he did want someone else other than Lee.
Allanfan20
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12/22/2006  4:22 PM
I don't remember that at all. Briggs didn't really like Lee at first, if memory serves me correct and everyone, from the start of Summer league, started loving Lee for his toughness and rebounding.

At first, people were a little surprised and upset about the Lee pick b/c nobody knew him. Everyone wanted either Blatche or Taft.

Personally, my draft hopes were Bynum at #8, Wayne Simien with another pick that we got, which turned out to be Phoenix's pick, and Nate Robinson at #30.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
TMS
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12/22/2006  7:23 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

BTW, I think Isiah did great with Nate and Lee, but I think he royally f'ed up by drafting Frye instead of Bynum. I think HEEEE has more potential than Bogut and Lee put together. Now THAT would have been a nice combination.

more than Bogut & Lee combined... hmmm, sounds like a 25 / 12 / 4 / 2 type player... u really think Bynum has that much potential?
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TheGame
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12/23/2006  12:30 PM
I still say in 2 years, you guys will be glad we kept Frye. If he can avoid the urge to become solely a jumpshooter and continue to work on his low post game, he is going to be an unstoppable scorer. I don't think people fully appreciate the offensive firepower IT has given us in our frontcourt.
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martin
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12/23/2006  12:34 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TMS:

knowing what you know now, would you trade Frye, Nate & D Lee for Chris Paul? (just for argument's sake)
yes

wow. Interesting... guess I have not seen Paul that much. Those 3 guys would be hard to part with for me but maybe that's just a sentimental thing, especially Lee.
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nixluva
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12/23/2006  12:50 PM
I don't agree that Frye hasn't improved. Frye is much more confident and smooth in the post. He's more aggressive defensively. Just cuz he had that bad start, you can't let that sway your appraisal of his skills. He's fits perfectly with Curry inside and Lee can do his thing as well. It's a great situation for us. Add Jared and Balkman and we're set at Forward and Center.

Bogut may get better, but I haven't been overly impressed so far. I'd take Lee. He just seems to have more of an impact on the games. You feel Lee's presence.
AI
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12/23/2006  4:02 PM
As much as people hate Thomas and I am one of them. He is great in the drafts.
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12/23/2006  5:07 PM
• David Lee had 14 rebounds Friday (Bulls Game), giving him 68 over his last four games. Over the past 25 years, the only Knicks players with that many rebounds over four games are Patrick Ewing (three times) and Marcus Camby (five times). The only NBA player with that many rebounds over four games this season is Ben Wallace. [ESPN]


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Allanfan20
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12/23/2006  6:06 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Allanfan20:

BTW, I think Isiah did great with Nate and Lee, but I think he royally f'ed up by drafting Frye instead of Bynum. I think HEEEE has more potential than Bogut and Lee put together. Now THAT would have been a nice combination.

more than Bogut & Lee combined... hmmm, sounds like a 25 / 12 / 4 / 2 type player... u really think Bynum has that much potential?

Yes, I've seen him on the Lakers a number of times this and last year and he's already improved really nicely. He's a guaranteed shotblock even if he only plays 9 minutes, he's got the ability to be just as dominant in the post, as Eddie, and his passing is very impressive. I think the thing that's keeping him on the bench is his defense, but I've heard numberous times that Phil Jackson doesn't like him, for whatever reason, and Kareem loves him.

Just his shotblocking alone makes me want him on the team more than Frye, and Curry for that matter, and it's not a knock on those 2. I'm impressed by both. I just think Bynum is gonna be a lot better.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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