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Everybody Hates The Knicks - Who Cares If They Show Improvement?
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holfresh
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12/20/2006  12:33 PM
Posted by fishmike:

holfresh, was Dolan's mandate to make bad trades and bad signings? Did Dolan say to sign Jerome James, Vin Baker and give up unprotected first rounders for Eddy Curry? Did Dolan tell him to trade for Mo Taylor and Jalen Rose then waive them? We could go on all day, no matter what the mandate was Isiah has executed all 9 of his plans in the last 3 years very poorly.

The worst part is Isiah and co had a built in excuse to suck for 2-3 years while they tried to amass draftpicks and good young talent. After that time they would have a bunch of homegrown guys and $25mm in cap space. Instead we have .350 ball, our 5th coach and are the joke of pro sports. Sugar coat it any way you want. Wins and losses dont lie

So the answer is yes you will ignore the Dolan mandate...

AUTOADVERT
BlueSeats
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12/20/2006  12:50 PM
fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?
fishmike
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12/20/2006  1:07 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:

holfresh, was Dolan's mandate to make bad trades and bad signings? Did Dolan say to sign Jerome James, Vin Baker and give up unprotected first rounders for Eddy Curry? Did Dolan tell him to trade for Mo Taylor and Jalen Rose then waive them? We could go on all day, no matter what the mandate was Isiah has executed all 9 of his plans in the last 3 years very poorly.

The worst part is Isiah and co had a built in excuse to suck for 2-3 years while they tried to amass draftpicks and good young talent. After that time they would have a bunch of homegrown guys and $25mm in cap space. Instead we have .350 ball, our 5th coach and are the joke of pro sports. Sugar coat it any way you want. Wins and losses dont lie

So the answer is yes you will ignore the Dolan mandate...

if you Dolan mandate was to play .350 ball then Isiah's doing a hell of a job

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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12/20/2006  1:11 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?

The mandate was stated in an early press conference where Isiah said we would rebuild, Dolan interrupted and said we would make the playoffs...Dolan wanted a team that would make the playoffs at all cost...Isiah, being an employee of Dolan has to acquiesce to the owner demands...So here we are trying to rebuild with young players, Isiah job is in jeopardy because we don't have a playoff team on the floor...Funny thing is everyone is happy with the young players...Give him time to develop these players, never, but we want to rebuild...



fishmike
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12/20/2006  1:15 PM
Posted by Michael6835:
Posted by fishmike:
same question for you then. find a suitable example of a laydenesque salary cap mess we can discuss. otherwise the straw man thing goes for you too.

bottom line, in the real world there are no perfect examples. did my best. can you do better?
The 2000 Nuggets were built around 3 players signed to large contracts. McDyess, Van Exel and Lafrentz. Also on that team were Voshon Lenard and Ken Willis.

3 years later that team is Carmello, Miller, Nene, Camby, Rodney White, Elson, Chris Anderson, Skita

Kiki didnt take any super long 5-6 year deals. He dumped Raef and Van Ex for Juwan Howard's monster deal and rather than trade that he let it come off the books. He didnt even draft great, rather OK, but he invested in getting extra picks. Nene's been a wash, Skita a bust and Melo a star. Mostly he got rid of an old core, bit the bullet for 2-3 years, drafted, avoided bad contracts regardless of need (Jerome James) and that team is pretty damn good.

A LOT of people around here were resigned and OK to let the Shandon/Houston/Spoon/Eisley disaster just come off the books. Isiah had a good record for drafting. Use the MSG vault to buy some addition late first rounders. The kind of trades teams makes EVERY YEAR and grab potential late gems like Lee or Ryan Gomes or Milsap who I also like...

Insteads its been 3 years and our cap situtation is WORSE than Layden's and while everyone swears the players are better strangely 5 coaches into it the record is NOT.

Nuggets, had the number 3 pick (luck of a lottery) and benefited from a botched draft by the pistons. They drafted Darko, instead of Melo, (luck). However, your points are correct, in that example the nuggets did it in 3yrs. But how many years did they suck before they were able to get lucky and get melo at 3 ? That is what everyone is ignoring. Last time I remember denver being relevant or good Mutombo had just beat seattle. Am i wrong ?
Name another example, I bet that team sucked like hell for awhile before they got a strong core. Oh yeah, none of them operate in the NY market.
Thats exactly what I'm not ignoring. In fact its the reason I used the Nuggets as an example. They sucked for exactly two years, but came out of that purge with at least one young star in Melo. Look at all the mistakes they made, but they STILL have a young star in Carmello, and some difference makers in Camby, Nene, Dre Miller (now Iverson).

We have sucked for 3 years under Isiah. Where's our star? Where's our Wade or Carmello? We have Franbury and a bunch of young guys who at times are fun to watch, not to mention 3-4 more years of cap hell minimum

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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12/20/2006  1:19 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?

One question Blue, honestly...Do you think Isiah could have rebuilt and kept his job?

Do you really think he could have done all you want including trying to get under the cap, not taking on salary( not showing he's trying to make the playoffs), and build through the draft and kept his job?



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-20-2006 1:21 PM]
fishmike
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12/20/2006  1:19 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?

The mandate was stated in an early press conference where Isiah said we would rebuild, Dolan interrupted and said we would make the playoffs...Dolan wanted a team that would make the playoffs at all cost...Isiah, being an employee of Dolan has to acquiesce to the owner demands...So here we are trying to rebuild with young players, Isiah job is in jeopardy because we don't have a playoff team on the floor...Funny thing is everyone is happy with the young players...Give him time to develop these players, never, but we want to rebuild...
OK... so if the mandate was to make the playoffs (probably every owner's mandate) what did ISiah do to give us a chance there? Why did he spend enormous amounts of money on guys who have never been to the playoffs? If your mandate was to make the playoffs would you build a team entirely around guys who have never won in this league?

Keep spinning. There are 20 other teams who's young core of talent is just as good as ours. No matter what the mandate was our GM has failed miserably.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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12/20/2006  1:25 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?

One question Blue, honestly...Do you think Isiah could have rebuilt and kept his job?

ask yourself. The guy spent $500mm, is on his 5th coach in 3 years and the team has played .350, .280 and .402 basketball. Has he been fired yet? But rebuilding would do it?

Please

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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12/20/2006  1:27 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?

The mandate was stated in an early press conference where Isiah said we would rebuild, Dolan interrupted and said we would make the playoffs...Dolan wanted a team that would make the playoffs at all cost...Isiah, being an employee of Dolan has to acquiesce to the owner demands...So here we are trying to rebuild with young players, Isiah job is in jeopardy because we don't have a playoff team on the floor...Funny thing is everyone is happy with the young players...Give him time to develop these players, never, but we want to rebuild...
OK... so if the mandate was to make the playoffs (probably every owner's mandate) what did ISiah do to give us a chance there? Why did he spend enormous amounts of money on guys who have never been to the playoffs? If your mandate was to make the playoffs would you build a team entirely around guys who have never won in this league?

Keep spinning. There are 20 other teams who's young core of talent is just as good as ours. No matter what the mandate was our GM has failed miserably.

Are you serious???..we had 8 or 9 guys on the roster that are no longer in the NBA three years removed...How on earth do you turn a roster like that into talent to make the playoffs the next year or two...How is that ever possible if you want to be fair...

joec32033
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12/20/2006  1:48 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

i actually agree that IT should finish out the year. i've had it with him, but he does deserve the chance as promised to prove me and other detractors wrong. we won't accomplish anything the second half of a post-IT season that wouldn't tap my patience after these last few seasons anyway.

I'd cosign this because there really will be nothing gained by ousting him, unless we are trying a major overhall mid season to get a jump on next season.

But the ONLY way I'd cosign this is if these embaressments stop. Every time we hit a new low, and it looks like we can't get any lower, it happens again.
~You can't run from who you are.~
BlueSeats
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12/20/2006  2:00 PM
Posted by holfresh:

So the answer is yes you will ignore the Dolan mandate...

Posted by holfresh:
The mandate was stated in an early press conference where Isiah said we would rebuild, Dolan interrupted and said we would make the playoffs...Dolan wanted a team that would make the playoffs at all cost...Isiah, being an employee of Dolan has to acquiesce to the owner demands...So here we are trying to rebuild with young players, Isiah job is in jeopardy because we don't have a playoff team on the floor...Funny thing is everyone is happy with the young players...Give him time to develop these players, never, but we want to rebuild...

Posted by holfresh:

One question Blue, honestly...Do you think Isiah could have rebuilt and kept his job?

Do you really think he could have done all you want including trying to get under the cap, not taking on salary( not showing he's trying to make the playoffs), and build through the draft and kept his job?


So you tell us not to ignore the mandate to make the playoffs at all costs, and you tell us that if Isiah ignored the mandate he'd be fired. Or if he rebuilt thru the draft he would be fired.

Yet he's failed on the mandate and he's not been fired.

He has failed on the mandate.

A few years back, I think in Isiah's first season here. Magic was interviewed on TNT about isiah and the Knicks and his comments were that the first thing isiah needed to do was bring down payroll. This is what came from the mouth of the man who was offered the job and turned it down. So Am I convinced Dolan could not have been reasoned with in respect to the proposed cost and timeframe of the endeavor? No, not at all.

If Isiah didn't believe that he could, with the unlimited resources allowed, fulfill on the mandate he should have either turned the job down,l or suggested an alternative approach. But I think he he salivated at the opportunity to spend lavishly and quickly, to make a big splash and put his imprint on the franchise, not only on the court but through every facet of marketing, training, coaching and broadcasting. I tnot only think he didn't try to dissuade Dolan from a foolhardy approach, I think he sold himself as the one guy who's bold, gifted and charismatic enough to pull it off.

But he has failed.

And what have we learned over his tenure here? That we probably could be better and further along in our progress now if he had chosen a slower and less costly route from the get go. We'd have less cancers, higher drafted kids, and a sooner opportunity for a premium free agent. And it's our cheapest/youngest players who give us our best opportunity to succeed in the here and now, and long term.
nyk4ever
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12/20/2006  2:04 PM
Posted by fishmike:

OK... so if the mandate was to make the playoffs (probably every owner's mandate) what did ISiah do to give us a chance there? Why did he spend enormous amounts of money on guys who have never been to the playoffs? If your mandate was to make the playoffs would you build a team entirely around guys who have never won in this league?

Keep spinning. There are 20 other teams who's young core of talent is just as good as ours. No matter what the mandate was our GM has failed miserably.

I've used this argument before with Fresh as well Fish. If the mandate from Dolan to Isiah was to make the playoffs, Isiah has been so far away from that mandate it's not even funny. Isiah didn't have to try and build a championship team, all he had to do was build a team good enough for the 8th seed every year and he would have made Dolan's demands. Isiah being the master GM he is, hasn't even come to even close to getting the 8th seed and the year he did get the 8th seed, he used part of Scott Laydens team and got swept by out cross-town rivals in the first round!
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
fishmike
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12/20/2006  2:09 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?

The mandate was stated in an early press conference where Isiah said we would rebuild, Dolan interrupted and said we would make the playoffs...Dolan wanted a team that would make the playoffs at all cost...Isiah, being an employee of Dolan has to acquiesce to the owner demands...So here we are trying to rebuild with young players, Isiah job is in jeopardy because we don't have a playoff team on the floor...Funny thing is everyone is happy with the young players...Give him time to develop these players, never, but we want to rebuild...
OK... so if the mandate was to make the playoffs (probably every owner's mandate) what did ISiah do to give us a chance there? Why did he spend enormous amounts of money on guys who have never been to the playoffs? If your mandate was to make the playoffs would you build a team entirely around guys who have never won in this league?

Keep spinning. There are 20 other teams who's young core of talent is just as good as ours. No matter what the mandate was our GM has failed miserably.

Are you serious???..we had 8 or 9 guys on the roster that are no longer in the NBA three years removed...How on earth do you turn a roster like that into talent to make the playoffs the next year or two...How is that ever possible if you want to be fair...

great point... glad you brought it up. How does a team of Eisley, Houston, Sprewell, Shandon, Harrington, KT, Spoon and Doleac play better basketball than anything Isiah has put together? Thats the team the year before Layden was fired.

Don Chaney was 15-24 before Isiah canned him. Hey thats .384 which is pretty much exactly what Isiah's winning % is here. Meanwhile after spending half a billion dollars Isiah is struggling to mirror Don Chaney's success in the win column.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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12/20/2006  2:11 PM

Blue, not to prolong this a argument, but I can name about 15-20 teams that went that route and hasn't won anything in 10 years...We have gone back and forth on this, the holy grail isn't breaking it down and building through the draft...in previous post i have named about 6 or 7 recent teams that have done it through trades as well...I wish Martin and Andrew had a recent post feature..

Nalod
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12/20/2006  2:14 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?

The mandate was stated in an early press conference where Isiah said we would rebuild, Dolan interrupted and said we would make the playoffs...Dolan wanted a team that would make the playoffs at all cost...Isiah, being an employee of Dolan has to acquiesce to the owner demands...So here we are trying to rebuild with young players, Isiah job is in jeopardy because we don't have a playoff team on the floor...Funny thing is everyone is happy with the young players...Give him time to develop these players, never, but we want to rebuild...
OK... so if the mandate was to make the playoffs (probably every owner's mandate) what did ISiah do to give us a chance there? Why did he spend enormous amounts of money on guys who have never been to the playoffs? If your mandate was to make the playoffs would you build a team entirely around guys who have never won in this league?

Keep spinning. There are 20 other teams who's young core of talent is just as good as ours. No matter what the mandate was our GM has failed miserably.

Are you serious???..we had 8 or 9 guys on the roster that are no longer in the NBA three years removed...How on earth do you turn a roster like that into talent to make the playoffs the next year or two...How is that ever possible if you want to be fair...

great point... glad you brought it up. How does a team of Eisley, Houston, Sprewell, Shandon, Harrington, KT, Spoon and Doleac play better basketball than anything Isiah has put together? Thats the team the year before Layden was fired.

Don Chaney was 15-24 before Isiah canned him. Hey thats .384 which is pretty much exactly what Isiah's winning % is here. Meanwhile after spending half a billion dollars Isiah is struggling to mirror Don Chaney's success in the win column.

A lot of those contracts would have expired by now, and they could have been traded a year or so anyway.

Its often assumed that laydens team would be frozen in time for ever!

3 years and a half a billion later its too hard to reconstruct what could have been.

But we know what is.

Lateral movment thus far. One must not confuse changes with improvement.

Haters keep it real. WE root for the team to win, but we are real.

Hope is still there!

TrueBlue
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12/20/2006  2:17 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by fishmike:

OK... so if the mandate was to make the playoffs (probably every owner's mandate) what did ISiah do to give us a chance there? Why did he spend enormous amounts of money on guys who have never been to the playoffs? If your mandate was to make the playoffs would you build a team entirely around guys who have never won in this league?

Keep spinning. There are 20 other teams who's young core of talent is just as good as ours. No matter what the mandate was our GM has failed miserably.

I've used this argument before with Fresh as well Fish. If the mandate from Dolan to Isiah was to make the playoffs, Isiah has been so far away from that mandate it's not even funny. Isiah didn't have to try and build a championship team, all he had to do was build a team good enough for the 8th seed every year and he would have made Dolan's demands. Isiah being the master GM he is, hasn't even come to even close to getting the 8th seed and the year he did get the 8th seed, he used part of Scott Laydens team and got swept by out cross-town rivals in the first round!

What makes it even worse is that he couldn't accomplish this mandate in the weakest Division of all of Sports. I mean the Badlantic Division has been horrific for the past 3yrs.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
BlueSeats
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12/20/2006  2:17 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Blue, not to prolong this a argument, but I can name about 15-20 teams that went that route and hasn't won anything in 10 years...We have gone back and forth on this, the holy grail isn't breaking it down and building through the draft...in previous post i have named about 6 or 7 recent teams that have done it through trades as well...I wish Martin and Andrew had a recent post feature..

A lot of the teams that haven't won anything were poorly managed, didn't have our resources, or our FA draw. I'm sure there have been other badly run teams, that's not in question. But we haven't won anything either, as I'm sure you well know.
Bippity10
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12/20/2006  2:17 PM
That's the problem. IF your goal is to make the championship you fall short than you end up in the playoffs. If your goal is to make the playoffs, you fall short you become us. That's been our problem for a while, our standards and goals are too low. CAn't say it enough. Now we aren't even shooting for playoffs. We are just shooting to be credible.

No matter who's "fault" it is. We just aren't a professional organization right now. Our standards of behaviior and expectations of results have been steadily declining since the day Patrick left. I called it in '00 and so far they have done nothing to prove me wrong. Play poor defense and instead of getting on your team, get on the opponent for running up the score.
I just hope that people will like me
holfresh
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12/20/2006  2:22 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

fresh, what was the specific mandate?

Trade away draft picks?
Build around whiners?
Bloat the payroll?
Hire/fire a coach per year?
Allow a HOF coach none of his own assistants while requiring the other to carry the most in league history?
Sexually harass the marketing director?
Blame the fans?
Make the playoffs?

What was the mandate, and which part did and didn't Isiah fulfill on?

The mandate was stated in an early press conference where Isiah said we would rebuild, Dolan interrupted and said we would make the playoffs...Dolan wanted a team that would make the playoffs at all cost...Isiah, being an employee of Dolan has to acquiesce to the owner demands...So here we are trying to rebuild with young players, Isiah job is in jeopardy because we don't have a playoff team on the floor...Funny thing is everyone is happy with the young players...Give him time to develop these players, never, but we want to rebuild...
OK... so if the mandate was to make the playoffs (probably every owner's mandate) what did ISiah do to give us a chance there? Why did he spend enormous amounts of money on guys who have never been to the playoffs? If your mandate was to make the playoffs would you build a team entirely around guys who have never won in this league?

Keep spinning. There are 20 other teams who's young core of talent is just as good as ours. No matter what the mandate was our GM has failed miserably.

Are you serious???..we had 8 or 9 guys on the roster that are no longer in the NBA three years removed...How on earth do you turn a roster like that into talent to make the playoffs the next year or two...How is that ever possible if you want to be fair...

great point... glad you brought it up. How does a team of Eisley, Houston, Sprewell, Shandon, Harrington, KT, Spoon and Doleac play better basketball than anything Isiah has put together? Thats the team the year before Layden was fired.

Don Chaney was 15-24 before Isiah canned him. Hey thats .384 which is pretty much exactly what Isiah's winning % is here. Meanwhile after spending half a billion dollars Isiah is struggling to mirror Don Chaney's success in the win column.


The East was horrible then...Remember the Sixers ruled with only AI....The Nets went to the Championship twice without Vince...You tell me, they have an even better roster today and are lucky to make it to the second round...It's a huge difference...Thats pre Shaq, Detroit, LeBron. the Wiz, Pre Indiana's resurgance...Not even the same league...

bettalaylow
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12/20/2006  2:22 PM
misterearl
Thomas has totally revamped the roster. No he has not produced a contender but what team that was so thoroughly moribund as the Knicks in 2003 has become an elite squad within three seasons?

This question is almost too easy.

Spurs 96-97 20 wins/ 97-98 56 wins

Philadelphia Sixers 97-98 31 wins/ Next year Conference Finals

Phoenix Suns 03-04 29 wins/ 04-05 62 wins

New Jersey Nets 2000-01 26 wins/ 01-02 52 wins

Toronto Raptors 98-99 23 wins/ 99-00 45 wins

Minnesota Timberwolves 95-96 26 wins/ 96-97 40 wins playoff appearance


You talk about the 2003 squad as being terrible yet they accomplished something that no Knick team did prior to that season nor after.
Everybody Hates The Knicks - Who Cares If They Show Improvement?

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