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now we see why LB put out 90 different line ups
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nyk4ever
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11/24/2006  8:13 AM
Lets also remember, Frye SPRAINED his knee, he didn't even need knee surgery so it's not like the injury was THAT serious.
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Elite
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11/24/2006  8:48 AM
there is no excuse for the 40something lineups.. im sorry.. no excuse
buddapaw
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11/24/2006  9:49 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by islesfan:

I think 95 games is a good sample size.

82 of those games were played under Larry, who destoyed the confidence of even the hard working kids like Nate, Lee, and Frye.

Nothing can excuse that.

I don't remember any confidence being broken.

Really? Frye, for example, was shooting the lights out of the basket until Larry broke him down.

Lee started, the team did well, and then was benched. He later said it confused him, which couldn't have aided his development.

Nate was jerked around too.

I guess Isiah must haven broke Frye down in preseason this year, cause he had the same results. Frye puts pressure on himself cause he doesn't understand defense. Also, defenders started to pick up on Frye and his outside shooting. Most all rookies hit that type of wall. Does that necessarily mean that the coach purposely destroyed their confidence?

If you think LB really broke the confidence of Frye and it lasted to this year, the same must hold for Nate and Lee. But those guys are BETTER this year. So one could argue that their confidence was not broken at all. Hey, when does confusion equate to breaking confidence ala Lee?

You think Nate deserved consistent minutes because of his consistent play last year? All of those excellent foreys into the paint that got blocked? All the unnecessary heaves?

No, Frye was coming off a serious knee injury, and it was to be expected that it would take time to find his game and the confidence that Larry destroyed. Actually, Frye's off the ball defense has improved.

I think both Lee and Nate have acknowledged that playing for Larry did make them question their games. That they have been able to persevere after being subject to Larry's inane treatment is a testimony to them.

It wasn't like the Knicks were winning anything. Why not just let the kids develop?

Confidence of playing after an injury and confidence of playing after being "broken" are completely different things. Still not convinced one had to do with another.

Frye repeatedly said he was 100% before the season started so I don't buy there was any confidence issues related to physical play.

As much as I can claim Isiah hurt Frye's confidence that lead to his sh!t play at the beginning of this year, you can claim LB had that same effect. It's all bull.

I think some guy named Allan Houston said the same thing. Players aren't doctors and the Knick doctors are also questionable as well.

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BasketballJones
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11/24/2006  2:31 PM
The biggest scandal of this season is that Frye and his fellow abused Knicks have still not received treatment for the physical and emotional abuse they suffered at the hands of Larry Brown. He broke them, took their confidence, and stole their joy. This season we are seeing the results in the Knicks continued poor team play.

There have been reports of players experiencing lengthy crying jags and nightmares, as well as incidents of bed wetting.

Even Marbury is still unable to recover his inner Starbury.

Sad ineed.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 11-24-2006 14:32]
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Bobby
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11/24/2006  4:23 PM
yep.....traumatized post teenybopper syndrome

marv, if you can do the honours and administrate rorschach inkblot test to our players could be a helpfull starting point. torture is out of the question
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
playa2
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11/24/2006  4:28 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

The biggest scandal of this season is that Frye and his fellow abused Knicks have still not received treatment for the physical and emotional abuse they suffered at the hands of Larry Brown. He broke them, took their confidence, and stole their joy. This season we are seeing the results in the Knicks continued poor team play.

There have been reports of players experiencing lengthy crying jags and nightmares, as well as incidents of bed wetting.

Even Marbury is still unable to recover his inner Starbury.

Sad ineed.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 11-24-2006 14:32]
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AI
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11/24/2006  5:44 PM
Posted by franco12:

Yea- Larry was right for starting Lee, then giving him a series of DNPs, and playing him spotty minutes.

Isiah gave Francis and Marbury a shot to play together- who knows, it might work out down the line- but this team needs a chance to develop chemistry.

The second unit has had chemistry- the first unit, none.

LB would have been giving Lee DNPs, and Nate too.

It amazes me how these kind of fans cant see it. THIS TEAM SUCKS........ I was also pisse LB but now I see why he is a HOF...... Wake the F*** UP.
joec32033
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11/24/2006  7:23 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Lets also remember, Frye SPRAINED his knee, he didn't even need knee surgery so it's not like the injury was THAT serious.

I think this every time someone says that Frye's injury was so serious it affects his attitude on the court so much.

I mean guys like Rip, Starks, Murphy broke their noses and are back in a few games and mentally are not as "shook up" as everyone is saying Frye is after sparining his knee. I understand how PHYSICALLY these guys can come back sooner-you don't run on your nose-but mentally there is very little excuse for Frye being mentally unready.
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PresIke
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11/24/2006  7:40 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by franco12:

Yea- Larry was right for starting Lee, then giving him a series of DNPs, and playing him spotty minutes.

Isiah gave Francis and Marbury a shot to play together- who knows, it might work out down the line- but this team needs a chance to develop chemistry.

The second unit has had chemistry- the first unit, none.

LB would have been giving Lee DNPs, and Nate too.


Isiah did himself the favor of not having to fit in Jalen, Q2, and Mo at Lee's position... after telling LB there'd be no changes.

People lambast Brown for taking Lee out of the starting lineup, but all these months later still have all the patience in the world for Isiah to put him back in.

Larry wasn't blasted by those that hate(d) what he was doing until after Lee was removed from the rotation after the 6 game win streak. Up until that point I think many fans had a lot of patience with him. For the record I would have been fine with keeping Larry and firing Isiah at the end of last season.


[Edited by - PresIke on 11-24-2006 7:54 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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11/24/2006  7:43 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

i think it's safe to say that all those fans going nuts about lb's record setting # of starting lineups are starting to realize that it doesn't matter with this group.

the fundamental problem with this team is that it is built incorrectly. so no matter who you stick where, nothing changes in the final outcome of the game.

therefore it's time to just look down the road and build a team for that. which means alot of fans that were upset lb wasn't playing their "favorites" are now going to have to get ready for some of them to get shipped out. that's why i really don't care who stays or goes b/c i know this team needs to be re-built from top to bottom.


Just keep in mind that not all who have been "patient" this year, thus far, were obsessed with Brown's lineup changes.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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11/24/2006  7:53 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by islesfan:

I think 95 games is a good sample size.

82 of those games were played under Larry, who destoyed the confidence of even the hard working kids like Nate, Lee, and Frye.

Nothing can excuse that.

I don't remember any confidence being broken.

Really? Frye, for example, was shooting the lights out of the basket until Larry broke him down.

Lee started, the team did well, and then was benched. He later said it confused him, which couldn't have aided his development.

Nate was jerked around too.

does starting frye games and then benching him during 2nd half's count as being "jerked around?"

how about balkman's minutes? 6, 3, 21, 19, 12, 5, 5 - those are his minutes over the past 7 games. that could constitute being "jerked" around also, no?

and lee has yet to start when he's CLEARLY outplaying the #8 pick and the 2 #1's/$60 mil superstar in front of him.

but it's all good tho...the most important thing is that isiah has only used 2 lineups.


DJ, there is a difference in benching Frye and Lee now versus then. Then Frye and Lee were some of our best players at the time. Where as Frye was benched in one game (the SA game...I wasn't aware of another?) he and the rest of the starters gave SA a 20 point lead at MSG and then the bench brought the Knicks back in the game before the half. That's a TOTALLY different situation than last year where it was more game to game...the same for Lee.

As for Lee this year, you can make an argument that he should start, no question, and Balkman's minutes are also worth questioning. I think it is fair to say that this is an area Isiah has possibly not done what is right, although I somewhat understand his hesitancy to make too dramatic of a change, despite the ability to construct arguments against those decisions.

Coaching isn't all about benching guys as soon as they start struggling because that can have a negative effect on the team, and how a player feels playing under a coach. Management is tricky when you have players who you think have potential, have shown it, yet can't attain consistency, especially when they are young. The basic problem is that very few are stepping it up, and some who we are depending up to contribute aren't thus far.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
crzymdups
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11/24/2006  10:48 PM
It's interesting - Isiah admitted he screwed with his players' heads by changing the lineup, went back to the lineup they were comfortable with and we win by 24.

There is a purpose to set lineups and set roles. You get good results if guys know what is expected of them and when. Isiah is just better at reading his team than the last coach we had.
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misterearl
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11/25/2006  9:47 AM
nyk4ever - Larry had HIS personal agenda

and now he is gone

get over it
once a knick always a knick
Anji
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11/25/2006  10:09 AM
Only one mo9ve needs to be made, lee in starting line up and frye out!!!!
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
misterearl
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11/25/2006  11:34 AM
Anji - Lee gets the crowd juiced - just like Spree when he reported to the scorers table with Camby in the shadows.

Frye is playing solid basketball.

Don't mess with what has been an effective strategy of having a strong bench.

The Knicks runs have been a thing of beauty.

Lee will get his minutets and will be on the floor when it matters.

That's all that matters.
once a knick always a knick
nyk4ever
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11/25/2006  11:39 AM
Posted by misterearl:

nyk4ever - Larry had HIS personal agenda

and now he is gone

get over it

Larrys PERSONAL agenda is now being used by Isiah Thomas. If you can't see that you're blind.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
misterearl
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11/25/2006  11:52 AM
nyk4ever - you funny

If Isiah wins its because of Larry Brown, right?
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nyk4ever
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11/25/2006  11:55 AM
Posted by misterearl:

nyk4ever - you funny

If Isiah wins its because of Larry Brown, right?

Not at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

Nothing that I've talked about in this thread has ANYTHING to do with a liking or disliking of Larry Brown or Isiah Thomas. The only thing that I'm talking about in this thread is what Larry Brown wanted over what Isiah Thomas wants and what Larry Brown wanted is what I felt was the right direction for this franchise and Isiah Thomas agreed.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 11-25-2006 11:55 AM]
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Anji
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11/25/2006  12:06 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Anji - Lee gets the crowd juiced - just like Spree when he reported to the scorers table with Camby in the shadows.

Frye is playing solid basketball.

Don't mess with what has been an effective strategy of having a strong bench.

The Knicks runs have been a thing of beauty.

Lee will get his minutets and will be on the floor when it matters.

That's all that matters.
The Bench and the starting unit would be better with Lee and curry starting, then Frye coming off the bench. Frye should be the featured low post/half court player for the bench. I think it would be best to bring frye stabilty to the bench and Lees energy to the starters.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
misterearl
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11/25/2006  12:40 PM
nyk4ever - larry brown cared about one thing and one thing only


getting paid
once a knick always a knick
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now we see why LB put out 90 different line ups
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