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djsunyc
Posts: 44929
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Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
11/15/2006  10:37 AM
the only knock on ernie was that his draft record here was poor and didn't utilize the draft as an asset.
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playa2
Posts: 34922
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Joined: 5/15/2003
Member: #407

11/15/2006  10:50 AM
The mandate back then didn't allow youth(rookies) to be a part of what Grunfeld and the knicks were trying to do... which was was competing for a CHIP and keeping fannies in the $2000 seats(starphucking).
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
TMS
Posts: 60684
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Member: #674
USA
11/15/2006  11:10 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by misterearl:

The Knicks HAD an Ernie Grunfeld type

Ernie Grunfeld
probably the best set of trades the Knicks have made in 20 years. He had the vision and balls to trade two of the most popular Knicks because he knew that we needed to get younger and more athletic. Out were vintage "true" Knicks in Starks and Oakley and in were Camby and Sprewell. Also out was Mason for LJ. He added Childs and Houston when Harper and Starks were getting old, and signed Houston and Childs to REASONABLE contracts.

Ernie did a good job. His problems with JVG and Checketts got him canned as I recall

i'm no Isiah lover as you well know, but he did the same thing when he traded "true Knick" Kurt Thomas for Q Rich & a draft pick which translated into Nate so he could get younger & more athletic, didn't he? Isiah gets his fare share of criticisms from me as well, but we can't say a guy like Grunfeld had "vision" to make 1 deal & Isiah has no plan when he makes pretty much the same type of deal... for the record, while i loved Chris Childs & his tenacity on defense, he was widely considered to be overpaid at the time he signed that contract, as was Charlie Ward... in today's market, those contracts would be considered reasonable, but back then they were very overpaid.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Solace
Posts: 30002
Alba Posts: 20
Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
11/15/2006  2:56 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by ultknicks524:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by islesfan:

Isiah really f***ed us, didn't he?
Dolan did

No. Isiah did. Dolan did not call up the Suns offering that idiotic trade. Dolan did not call up the Magic and offer Ariza and Penny's expiring contract.

The team was $crewed WAAAAAY before those two deals

I guess if we're still "$crewed" in five years, because of inept management, we'll continue to blame Layden?
I never once blamed Layden. He probably did no worse than any GM could do under the constraints of the corporation running the Knicks.

Anything to avoid admitting that Isiah has to take responsibility for doing a crappy job, right?
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
wsdm
Posts: 20803
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Joined: 8/16/2006
Member: #1167

11/15/2006  3:56 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by ultknicks524:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by islesfan:

Isiah really f***ed us, didn't he?
Dolan did

No. Isiah did. Dolan did not call up the Suns offering that idiotic trade. Dolan did not call up the Magic and offer Ariza and Penny's expiring contract.

The team was $crewed WAAAAAY before those two deals

I guess if we're still "$crewed" in five years, because of inept management, we'll continue to blame Layden?
I never once blamed Layden. He probably did no worse than any GM could do under the constraints of the corporation running the Knicks.

Anything to avoid admitting that Isiah has to take responsibility for doing a crappy job, right?
Nope. He has done a crappy job--just like any GM would under this corporation. I have no doubt that some would do slightly less crappy, but crap is still crap no matter how you slice or excrete it.

www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
BigRedDog
Posts: 22227
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2004
Member: #569
11/15/2006  3:57 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by misterearl:

The Knicks HAD an Ernie Grunfeld type

Ernie Grunfeld
probably the best set of trades the Knicks have made in 20 years. He had the vision and balls to trade two of the most popular Knicks because he knew that we needed to get younger and more athletic. Out were vintage "true" Knicks in Starks and Oakley and in were Camby and Sprewell. Also out was Mason for LJ. He added Childs and Houston when Harper and Starks were getting old, and signed Houston and Childs to REASONABLE contracts.

Ernie did a good job. His problems with JVG and Checketts got him canned as I recall

I liked Ernie and thought he did a good job. However the biggest mistake he made was signing childs. I never thought he was any good plus at the time 2 other point guards were available for the same $. Tim Hardaway and Kenny Anderson. Needless to say if we had signed Hardaway at the time I think we wwould have won a championship.
fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
Solace
Posts: 30002
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Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
11/15/2006  4:01 PM
Posted by wsdm:

Nope. He has done a crappy job--just like any GM would under this corporation. I have no doubt that some would do slightly less crappy, but crap is still crap no matter how you slice or excrete it.

Because you have to keep throwing in your disclaimers, it's hard to take that opinion as sincere. Reminds me of someone that we all miss. Especially the way you've defended Isiah on other threads. You're making excuses for Isiah sucking. Isiah sucked, and as bad as Dolan is, Dolan isn't the reason why Isiah did *this* bad.

Dolan needs to go too, but let's face it... if the GM leaves us in a worse spot than we started in, and we already were in a bad spot, then I'm sorry... other GMS could've done CONSIDERABLY better than "slightly less crappy". No excuses for Isiah. He's actually been worse than Layden, which many thought was an impossible feat.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
fishmike
Posts: 53903
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
11/15/2006  4:28 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by misterearl:

The Knicks HAD an Ernie Grunfeld type

Ernie Grunfeld
probably the best set of trades the Knicks have made in 20 years. He had the vision and balls to trade two of the most popular Knicks because he knew that we needed to get younger and more athletic. Out were vintage "true" Knicks in Starks and Oakley and in were Camby and Sprewell. Also out was Mason for LJ. He added Childs and Houston when Harper and Starks were getting old, and signed Houston and Childs to REASONABLE contracts.

Ernie did a good job. His problems with JVG and Checketts got him canned as I recall

i'm no Isiah lover as you well know, but he did the same thing when he traded "true Knick" Kurt Thomas for Q Rich & a draft pick which translated into Nate so he could get younger & more athletic, didn't he? Isiah gets his fare share of criticisms from me as well, but we can't say a guy like Grunfeld had "vision" to make 1 deal & Isiah has no plan when he makes pretty much the same type of deal... for the record, while i loved Chris Childs & his tenacity on defense, he was widely considered to be overpaid at the time he signed that contract, as was Charlie Ward... in today's market, those contracts would be considered reasonable, but back then they were very overpaid.
Here's the thing. Ernies trades of Starks and Oak were much larger risks because the Knicks were already a playoff team that was advancing every year. Isiah traded KT from a 30 something win team.

That being said I have always applauded the KT trade for a couple reasons. The main one being its the ONLY trade Isiah made were he used his leverage. Q didnt want to go back to Pho, so Isiah got the pick out of them to make it work good job. The Curry trade was the exact opposite. Everyone knew Curry was done as a Bull, so why give up the farm? Just threaten to walk away and the Bulls get zilch for EC.

Ernie made a lot more than one deal.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the pre Ernie Knicks were:
Harper/Starks/Mason/Oakley/Ewing
And the Knicks when Ernie was fired were:
Childs/Houston/LJ/Kurt/Ewing with Spree/Camby as the primary bench guys.

Young and athletic isnt a vision IMO. That doesnt define a team. Style of play does. Whats ours?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
Posts: 53903
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
11/15/2006  4:32 PM
Posted by BigRedDog:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by misterearl:

The Knicks HAD an Ernie Grunfeld type

Ernie Grunfeld
probably the best set of trades the Knicks have made in 20 years. He had the vision and balls to trade two of the most popular Knicks because he knew that we needed to get younger and more athletic. Out were vintage "true" Knicks in Starks and Oakley and in were Camby and Sprewell. Also out was Mason for LJ. He added Childs and Houston when Harper and Starks were getting old, and signed Houston and Childs to REASONABLE contracts.

Ernie did a good job. His problems with JVG and Checketts got him canned as I recall

I liked Ernie and thought he did a good job. However the biggest mistake he made was signing childs. I never thought he was any good plus at the time 2 other point guards were available for the same $. Tim Hardaway and Kenny Anderson. Needless to say if we had signed Hardaway at the time I think we wwould have won a championship.
Childs was a good signing that didnt pan out. He hit a lot of big shots for us. He was good playoff performer and a very good on the ball defender. He wasnt a younger Derrick Harper and he never really found the offense he had in NJ. Still, he was player that fit a STYLE Ernie was sticking too. Tough, good defender, good under pressure, younger but veteran (27 at the signing?)

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
11/15/2006  4:34 PM
i'm convinced this team will play w/a high energy, uptempo style once Marbury & Francis are jettisoned from the roster... i've seen enough of these young guys playing w/those 2 off the floor that i'm encouraged by... currently we don't have a style of play because we have 2 halfcourt PG's who are used to dominating the ball on offense trying to fit into an uptempo team concept... it's not going to work... i really do feel like this team would be so much better off w/o those 2 on the roster.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
Posts: 53903
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
11/15/2006  4:44 PM
TMS... agree 100%

Those guys pound the ball. And when they arent they are thinking about pounding the ball. Neither of them know how to run an offense. Larry was right in this regard. Flat out dump Marbury and Francis and we are probably better. Live with what Mardy and Jamal give you at PG. Let Nate score at well. Play your rebounders a lot in Balkman, Lee and Q and keep Curry and Frye off the floor at the same time. Let Cato and Malik get some burn also.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
wsdm
Posts: 20803
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/16/2006
Member: #1167

11/15/2006  9:52 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by wsdm:

Nope. He has done a crappy job--just like any GM would under this corporation. I have no doubt that some would do slightly less crappy, but crap is still crap no matter how you slice or excrete it.

Because you have to keep throwing in your disclaimers, it's hard to take that opinion as sincere. Reminds me of someone that we all miss. Especially the way you've defended Isiah on other threads. You're making excuses for Isiah sucking. Isiah sucked, and as bad as Dolan is, Dolan isn't the reason why Isiah did *this* bad.

Dolan needs to go too, but let's face it... if the GM leaves us in a worse spot than we started in, and we already were in a bad spot, then I'm sorry... other GMS could've done CONSIDERABLY better than "slightly less crappy". No excuses for Isiah. He's actually been worse than Layden, which many thought was an impossible feat.
Lighten up. You seem to have a low tolerance for anyone being less brutally negative toward Isiah than you are.
www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
This can be torn down and rebuilt...

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