Posted by wsdm:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by wsdm:

Posted by ultknicks524:

Posted by wsdm:

Posted by islesfan:

Isiah really f***ed us, didn't he?

Dolan did

No. Isiah did. Dolan did not call up the Suns offering that idiotic trade. Dolan did not call up the Magic and offer Ariza and Penny's expiring contract.

The team was $crewed WAAAAAY before those two deals

I guess if we're still "$crewed" in five years, because of inept management, we'll continue to blame Layden?

I never once blamed Layden. He probably did no worse than any GM could do under the constraints of the corporation running the Knicks.

Anything to avoid admitting that Isiah has to take responsibility for doing a crappy job, right?

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by misterearl:

The Knicks HAD an Ernie Grunfeld type

Ernie Grunfeld

probably the best set of trades the Knicks have made in 20 years. He had the vision and balls to trade two of the most popular Knicks because he knew that we needed to get younger and more athletic. Out were vintage "true" Knicks in Starks and Oakley and in were Camby and Sprewell. Also out was Mason for LJ. He added Childs and Houston when Harper and Starks were getting old, and signed Houston and Childs to REASONABLE contracts.

Ernie did a good job. His problems with JVG and Checketts got him canned as I recall

I liked Ernie and thought he did a good job. However the biggest mistake he made was signing childs. I never thought he was any good plus at the time 2 other point guards were available for the same $. Tim Hardaway and Kenny Anderson. Needless to say if we had signed Hardaway at the time I think we wwould have won a championship.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by misterearl:

The Knicks HAD an Ernie Grunfeld type

Ernie Grunfeld

probably the best set of trades the Knicks have made in 20 years. He had the vision and balls to trade two of the most popular Knicks because he knew that we needed to get younger and more athletic. Out were vintage "true" Knicks in Starks and Oakley and in were Camby and Sprewell. Also out was Mason for LJ. He added Childs and Houston when Harper and Starks were getting old, and signed Houston and Childs to REASONABLE contracts.

Ernie did a good job. His problems with JVG and Checketts got him canned as I recall

i'm no Isiah lover as you well know, but he did the same thing when he traded "true Knick" Kurt Thomas for Q Rich & a draft pick which translated into Nate so he could get younger & more athletic, didn't he? Isiah gets his fare share of criticisms from me as well, but we can't say a guy like Grunfeld had "vision" to make 1 deal & Isiah has no plan when he makes pretty much the same type of deal... for the record, while i loved Chris Childs & his tenacity on defense, he was widely considered to be overpaid at the time he signed that contract, as was Charlie Ward... in today's market, those contracts would be considered reasonable, but back then they were very overpaid.

Here's the thing. Ernies trades of Starks and Oak were much larger risks because the Knicks were already a playoff team that was advancing every year. Isiah traded KT from a 30 something win team.

That being said I have always applauded the KT trade for a couple reasons. The main one being its the ONLY trade Isiah made were he used his leverage. Q didnt want to go back to Pho, so Isiah got the pick out of them to make it work good job. The Curry trade was the exact opposite. Everyone knew Curry was done as a Bull, so why give up the farm? Just threaten to walk away and the Bulls get zilch for EC.

Ernie made a lot more than one deal.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the pre Ernie Knicks were:
Harper/Starks/Mason/Oakley/Ewing
And the Knicks when Ernie was fired were:
Childs/Houston/LJ/Kurt/Ewing with Spree/Camby as the primary bench guys.

Young and athletic isnt a vision IMO. That doesnt define a team. Style of play does. Whats ours?

Posted by Solace:

Posted by wsdm:

Nope. He has done a crappy job--just like any GM would under this corporation. I have no doubt that some would do slightly less crappy, but crap is still crap no matter how you slice or excrete it.

Because you have to keep throwing in your disclaimers, it's hard to take that opinion as sincere. Reminds me of someone that we all miss. Especially the way you've defended Isiah on other threads. You're making excuses for Isiah sucking. Isiah sucked, and as bad as Dolan is, Dolan isn't the reason why Isiah did *this* bad.

Dolan needs to go too, but let's face it... if the GM leaves us in a worse spot than we started in, and we already were in a bad spot, then I'm sorry... other GMS could've done CONSIDERABLY better than "slightly less crappy". No excuses for Isiah. He's actually been worse than Layden, which many thought was an impossible feat.