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Why not give Isiah some credit?
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PresIke
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11/2/2006  1:07 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Because the negatives during Isiah's tenure have far outweighed the positives.

Now answer my question.


Firstly, you are in no position to demand anyone of anything, so there is no need to write in such an obnoxious manner (which I may be wrong about, but it seemed that way). I personally don't feel the need to prove to you, isles, or many of the others who spend all of their time here blasting or making fun of the current team because I don't think we are going to see eye to eye. I question the objectivity of you and others when it comes to Isiah, and me and those who want to see him succeed. You have already made your mind up, as have I, for the time being.

If I had to explain my position I would say that I just don't see the point of railing this team over and over and over again when we are already aware of the criticisms and the team is who we have for now. Treating the fans who try to enjoy the team as stupid is an insult to these fans' intelligence, and exposes some, in my view, as vile and obsessed. If Isiah and the Knicks blow it you will get your wish. Maybe it will be later rather than sooner, and I would have not had a problem if Isiah was fired at the end of last season, but Dolan did what he did, and it is out of my hands as a fan. Dolan knows the fans are upset, but what would another GM be able to do with this roster at the end of last season when the value was so low. So, he gives the team to Isiah to coach, and now he has to put his money where his mouth is when it comes to the roster he created. I don't see why this is such a problem.

My beef rests with Dolan more than Isiah, because if you look at the Knicks as an organization ever since the Ewing trade there has not been much difference in financial philosophy, just the kind of players brought in. Dolan in the end is the one who hired Isiah and could have fired him when things didn't turn around sooner. Dolan's idiocy is the root problem, but now there is some reason to think that things might work out. We have some players with talent and potential, despite making some questionable moves and their flaws, which MANY NBA GMS HAVE MADE and TEAMS HAVE. I'd rather try to enjoy that hope at least early on, since no matter how much I may wish things to be different we can't change the past.

If you check my record you will also note that I am no blind Isiah follower either. I want to see how the team does this season and then make a decision from there. If you or the rest of the anti-Isiah obsessed, and I do think obsession is the right word, want to label me "dellusional" or a "kool-aid" drinker, go right ahead, but don't expect me to not point out any inconsistencies or flaws I see with your argument, because no one has a monopoly on information, insight or knowledge here, and since none of us have a crystal ball we really don't know what is going to happen, and I'd rather keep that hope as a fan for a bit than get excited about seeing the demise of the team.

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-02-2006 1:09 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-02-2006 1:31 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-02-2006 1:32 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
AUTOADVERT
TRU
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11/2/2006  1:18 PM
Take it easy, dude.
Let it be known: I believe in the Knicks this year-- deep into the playoffs, I swear to you my brothers...
PresIke
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11/2/2006  1:28 PM
Posted by TRU:

Take it easy, dude.

Ummm...whom you are referring to?



Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
oohah
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11/2/2006  1:32 PM
Posted by islesfan:

oohah,

I believed from Day 1 that Isiah was an incompetent as an executive and I think he's a disgrace as a human being which would only hurt the organization.



Okay, that is fine. IT has always had the reputation of being a turd etc.

But how do you reconcile rooting for the team and being so Anti-Isiah at the same time?

To illustrate, I never really liked LB before the Knicks, but it would be more accurate to say I was indifferent. When he got here, I grew to dislike him as a person, but it was far more important to me that I thought he was tearing down the team for his personal reasons. However, I could not root against my team, and I would not if he had come back this year.

So, again, how do you reconcile rooting for the team IT is running in every respect while rooting against him?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
islesfan
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11/2/2006  1:49 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by islesfan:

Because the negatives during Isiah's tenure have far outweighed the positives.

Now answer my question.


Firstly, you are in no position to demand anyone of anything, so there is no need to write in such an obnoxious manner (which I may be wrong about, but it seemed that way). I personally don't feel the need to prove to you, isles, or many of the others who spend all of their time here blasting or making fun of the current team because I don't think we are going to see eye to eye. I question the objectivity of you and others when it comes to Isiah, and me and those who want to see him succeed. You have already made your mind up, as have I, for the time being.

If I had to explain my position I would say that I just don't see the point of railing this team over and over and over again when we are already aware of the criticisms and the team is who we have for now. Treating the fans who try to enjoy the team as stupid is an insult to these fans' intelligence, and exposes some, in my view, as vile and obsessed. If Isiah and the Knicks blow it you will get your wish. Maybe it will be later rather than sooner, and I would have not had a problem if Isiah was fired at the end of last season, but Dolan did what he did, and it is out of my hands as a fan. Dolan knows the fans are upset, but what would another GM be able to do with this roster at the end of last season when the value was so low. So, he gives the team to Isiah to coach, and now he has to put his money where his mouth is when it comes to the roster he created. I don't see why this is such a problem.

My beef rests with Dolan more than Isiah, because if you look at the Knicks as an organization over since the Ewing trade there has not been much difference in financial philosophy, just the kind of players brought in. Dolan in the end is the one who hired Isiah and could have fired him when things didn't turn around sooner. Dolan's idiocy is the root problem, but now there is some reason to think that things might work out. We have some players with talent and potential, despite making some questionable moves and their flaws, which MANY NBA GMS HAVE MADE and TEAMS HAVE. I'd rather try to enjoy that hope at least early on, since no matter how much I may wish things to be different we can't change the past.

If you check my record you will also note that I am no blind Isiah follower either. I want to see how this team does this season and then make deciscion from there. If you or the rest of the anti-Isiah obsessed, and I do think obsession is the right word, want to label me "dellusional" or a "kool-aid" drinker, go right ahead, but don't expect me to not point out any inconsistencies or flaws I see with your argument, because no one has a monopoly on information, insight or knowledge here, and since none of us have a crystal ball we really don't know what is going to happen, and I'd rather keep that hope as a fan for a bit than get excited about seeing the demise of the team.

[Edited by - PresIke on 11-02-2006 1:09 PM]

I wasn't trying to be obnoxious. I apologize if you took it that way.

You can question my objectivity when it comes to Isiah, I don't like him and I don't hide the fact, but when it comes to the Knicks I only want whats best for the team. And in my opinion, I think the best thing for the Knicks is a new GM.

I have no interest in ignoring mistake after mistake as he's turned us into the laughingstock of the NBA. That shouldn't be contrued as an insult to other Knicks fans and it doesn't make me "vile" or "obsessed". I think Isiah has proven that he has no business running an NBA team and I know we'll be better off when he's gone. I won't apologize for that.

I agree that Dolan is as big of a problem, if not bigger, as Isiah. But you can't do anything about ownership. You can do something about the GM though.
don't expect me to not point out any inconsistencies or flaws I see with your argument, because no one has a monopoly on information, insight or knowledge here, and since none of us have a crystal ball we really don't know what is going to happen, and I'd rather keep that hope as a fan for a bit than get excited about seeing the demise of the team

I have no problem with any of that, I understand it goes both ways. But what you call "the demise of the team", I call Isiah being fired as the beginning of hope.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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11/2/2006  1:52 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by islesfan:

oohah,

I believed from Day 1 that Isiah was an incompetent as an executive and I think he's a disgrace as a human being which would only hurt the organization.



Okay, that is fine. IT has always had the reputation of being a turd etc.

But how do you reconcile rooting for the team and being so Anti-Isiah at the same time?

To illustrate, I never really liked LB before the Knicks, but it would be more accurate to say I was indifferent. When he got here, I grew to dislike him as a person, but it was far more important to me that I thought he was tearing down the team for his personal reasons. However, I could not root against my team, and I would not if he had come back this year.

So, again, how do you reconcile rooting for the team IT is running in every respect while rooting against him?

oohah

Easy. I want him to prove me wrong. Build a contender and I eat crow for the rest of my life while enjoying every bite.

Unfortunately for all of us, he's done nothing but prove me right.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
babyKnicks
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11/2/2006  1:54 PM
hasn't it been 2 and 1/2 years?
Posted by islesfan:

Why do some people think that Isiah deserves credit for giving us a team that we hope, after 3 1/2 years, can equal the win-loss record of Layden's last full year?

Let's go Knicks. That's amare
islesfan
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11/2/2006  1:56 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:

hasn't it been 2 and 1/2 years?
Posted by islesfan:

Why do some people think that Isiah deserves credit for giving us a team that we hope, after 3 1/2 years, can equal the win-loss record of Layden's last full year?

I mean that we're hoping that the record after this season, which would be after 3 1/2 years of Isiah, is somewhere around what Layden did in his last full year here (37 wins).
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
babyKnicks
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11/2/2006  1:59 PM
Posted by islesfan:


Easy. I want him to prove me wrong. Build a contender and I eat crow for the rest of my life while enjoying every bite.

Unfortunately for all of us, he's done nothing but prove me right.

I've only been here a short time, but I was wondering...what qualifies as "build a contender" ?

Championship trophy? Getting to the finals? A particular round of the playoffs?

We haven't won a trophy since the early 70's, so if that is your measuring stick, I think you are just spitting hate.

Can you let me know your definition of building a contender?

Maybe everyone won't think you are so rude and biased if you are able to qualify that?
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
islesfan
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11/2/2006  2:14 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by islesfan:


Easy. I want him to prove me wrong. Build a contender and I eat crow for the rest of my life while enjoying every bite.

Unfortunately for all of us, he's done nothing but prove me right.

I've only been here a short time, but I was wondering...what qualifies as "build a contender" ?

Championship trophy? Getting to the finals? A particular round of the playoffs?

We haven't won a trophy since the early 70's, so if that is your measuring stick, I think you are just spitting hate.

Can you let me know your definition of building a contender?

Maybe everyone won't think you are so rude and biased if you are able to qualify that?

Excuse me? You've only been here a short time but you're already speaking for everyone in thinking that I'm so rude and biased?

How about you stay awhile before you start speaking for everyone.

Just so you don't think that I'm ducking your question, because I really care about your perception o me, I qualify building a contender as having a legitimate chance to win the championship year after year. Not that they have to an odds on favorite but they are in the discussion.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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11/2/2006  2:17 PM
Something eerily familiar about babyknicks. Can't put my finger on it.
I just hope that people will like me
islesfan
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11/2/2006  2:19 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Something eerily familiar about babyknicks. Can't put my finger on it.

Yeah, you too?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
babyKnicks
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11/2/2006  2:19 PM
I didn't mean to speak for everyone...but more for me...what do you mean by "having a legitmate chance"?

Is that a specific round of the playoffs, or they lose to the eventual champion sometime during the playoffs or they get upset in the playoffs in the first round by some random act of fate?

Just want to know so you don't end up following me around the board trying to make my posts look stupid.

You have a tendency to run rough shod over those that disagree with you, I want to know what the bounderies are before i go the way of a bonn or hoss.

what do you mean by "legitmate chance", can you give an example?
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
Bippity10
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11/2/2006  2:22 PM
Hoss is gone??? That's devastating. His input will be missed.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 11-02-2006 2:29 PM]
I just hope that people will like me
islesfan
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11/2/2006  2:26 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:

I didn't mean to speak for everyone...but more for me...what do you mean by "having a legitmate chance"?

Is that a specific round of the playoffs, or they lose to the eventual champion sometime during the playoffs or they get upset in the playoffs in the first round by some random act of fate?

Just want to know so you don't end up following me around the board trying to make my posts look stupid.

You have a tendency to run rough shod over those that disagree with you, I want to know what the bounderies are before i go the way of a bonn or hoss.

what do you mean by "legitmate chance", can you give an example?

Someone is bitter.

For someone that has only been here a short time you certainly think you know a lot about the history of this board.

rvhoss is gone? What a pity. What happened to him? Did he find someplace else to spew his racist hate?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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11/2/2006  2:32 PM
Isn't building a contender pretty self-explanatory. don't want to speak for Isles but I think for most people a contender is a team that has the talent and make-up to compete for a title. Now, when you reach that point is subjective and open to interpretation but I'm pretty sure most can admit that we haven't acheived it yet, Baby Knicks aka "the new guy"
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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11/2/2006  2:34 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Something eerily familiar about babyknicks. Can't put my finger on it.

Yeah, you too?

He seems to have an affinity for some of the posters such as Bonn and RVhoss. He hates what you did to Bonn.
I just hope that people will like me
islesfan
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11/2/2006  2:36 PM
"the new guy", same as the old guy
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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11/2/2006  2:38 PM
I will say this, what you did to Bonn was wrong and mean spirited. Funny and made for wonderful entertainment for the masses. But wrong.
I just hope that people will like me
islesfan
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11/2/2006  2:42 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I will say this, what you did to Bonn was wrong and mean spirited. Funny and made for wonderful entertainment for the masses. But wrong.

Hey Bonnie left on his own free will.

rvhoss, maybe not so much.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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