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What's all this Trade Frye/ Frye is the weak link crap?
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nyk4ever
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10/29/2006  5:15 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:

its not about Curry and Frye... its about Frye and Frye. He cant guard 4's. He's not some kid we are waiting to develop. He's a 4 year CBB player, who played center only in CBB, and is failing to make a position change.

Whats building for the future got to do with trading him? If we traded him I would look to get a young stud back.

Patience? I'm not saying we have to trade him now. The Knicks neednt have a timetable for Frye. But their coack/gm is looking at a very bad start if they keep running this guy out at PF

What are you talking about, the season hasn't even started and most here want him traded...This guy can give the Knick 18 and 8 this year at the position...David Lee is even worse defensively at the position, it would be a total mistake to throw him in there at this time...Frye is having trouble yes in preseason but it's preseason still...Lee can't guard anyone there but no one seems to care...

Lee is a ybetter rebounder by far, much quicker and faster. Neither are lockdown defenders (obviously) but Lee at least keeps a body on the guy he's guarding. Frye's lucky if he remembers who he's guarding.
I haven't seen it but I'm not sure if he can play Power Forwards in this league with that body.


Well that takes care of your opinion. How can you have a opinion if you haven't seen what you are trying to talk about?

Just for reference. Lee's per48 minute counter-production says that Lee held opposing PF's to a 19.2 PER while Frye held opposing PF's to a 22.5 PER.

If you also look at these stats, when Frye was playing Center, he held opposing Centers to an AWESOME 13.4 per, while having a 19.7 PER offensively at center. It's clear that Frye should not be the starting PF at this point for the Knicks and should be coming off the bench and lighting it up with Jamal, Q, and Nate.

Your are playing favorites and I'm playing reality.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-29-2006 5:16 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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holfresh
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10/29/2006  5:23 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:

its not about Curry and Frye... its about Frye and Frye. He cant guard 4's. He's not some kid we are waiting to develop. He's a 4 year CBB player, who played center only in CBB, and is failing to make a position change.

Whats building for the future got to do with trading him? If we traded him I would look to get a young stud back.

Patience? I'm not saying we have to trade him now. The Knicks neednt have a timetable for Frye. But their coack/gm is looking at a very bad start if they keep running this guy out at PF

What are you talking about, the season hasn't even started and most here want him traded...This guy can give the Knick 18 and 8 this year at the position...David Lee is even worse defensively at the position, it would be a total mistake to throw him in there at this time...Frye is having trouble yes in preseason but it's preseason still...Lee can't guard anyone there but no one seems to care...

Lee is a ybetter rebounder by far, much quicker and faster. Neither are lockdown defenders (obviously) but Lee at least keeps a body on the guy he's guarding. Frye's lucky if he remembers who he's guarding.
I haven't seen it but I'm not sure if he can play Power Forwards in this league with that body.


Well that takes care of your opinion. How can you have a opinion if you haven't seen what you are trying to talk about?

Just for reference. Lee's per48 minute counter-production says that Lee held opposing PF's to a 19.2 PER while Frye held opposing PF's to a 22.5 PER.

If you also look at these stats, when Frye was playing Center, he held opposing Centers to an AWESOME 13.4 per, while having a 19.7 PER offensively at center. It's clear that Frye should not be the starting PF at this point for the Knicks and should be coming off the bench and lighting it up with Jamal, Q, and Nate.

Your are playing favorites and I'm playing reality.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-29-2006 5:16 PM]

According to "stats", Shaq should be coming off the bench in Miami too...



[Edited by - holfresh on 10-29-2006 5:52 PM]
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  5:28 PM
Easy...
Posted by nyk4ever:


What does NOT entail rebuilding.

-Acquiring Steve Francis AND Jalen Rose at last years deadline
LB...but if it makes you feel better JRose=GONE, Francis=one of TWO (and a half jj1 that's for fish) veterans left that can contribute
-Trading 2 straight 1st round picks. One of them turned out to be a lottery pick and the other pick has a great chance to be a lottery pick.
we had 5 first round picks the last 2 drafts...but maybe i'm nitpicking.:)
-Signing a 30+ year old Center to a Full mid-level exception
He's a shot blocker and who else would you have wanted to sign...and are we going to beat the Jerome James drum as long as we can? I mean, he's a shot blocker...$5 mill is peanuts compared to the rest of the league's payrolls. He has the 123rd highest salary in the league, no idea what he ranks among back up centers with playoff experience...but ok, one 30+ 7 footer signing does not a rebuilding make...you win
-Constantly adding to the payroll.
how much comes off the cap this year? It's been less than 3 years...impatience is your biggest flaw.
if we are under the cap within 5 years of isiah taking over an impossible job (remember the headlines, you must, they were less than 3 year's ago) and turned crappy contracts into a young roster and 4 crappy contracts.

By 2009, there will be no crappy contracts.

Like I said, impatience is your biggest flaw.
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buddapaw
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10/29/2006  6:03 PM
Just a simple question just turned into a bash-a-thon, you guy are like clockwork.
I didn't ask about the cap, past trades and draft.
I asked why are you people giving up on Frye plain and simple
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nyk4ever
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10/29/2006  6:12 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Easy...
LB...but if it makes you feel better JRose=GONE, Francis=one of TWO (and a half jj1 that's for fish) veterans left that can contribute
Trading a 20 year old SF for a aging veteran who has be known to ruin team chemistry does not count as a team being in rebuilding mode. It counts as GM is making trades to try and improve the team mode. Rebuilding constitutes acquiring draft picks and shedding large contracts, not adding more large contracts.
we had 5 first round picks the last 2 drafts...but maybe i'm nitpicking.:)
I'm sorry but trading lottery picks does not entail rebuilding. Slice it anyway you want, when you trade 2 1st round picks in successive years, you are saying to everyone(including your fans) that you feel your team is ready to contend fully, in not only the east, but for the NBA championship. Your right Isiah acquired another pick last year, but that was only after he realized that he royally screwed up and that he had to add more talent to the roster. So instead of it being a player like Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, Rudy Gay we settled for a guy like Eddy Curry. A player with serious weight and desire issues. A player Isiah Thomas just called out in the press and call him a wimp.
He's a shot blocker and who else would you have wanted to sign...and are we going to beat the Jerome James drum as long as we can? I mean, he's a shot blocker...$5 mill is peanuts compared to the rest of the league's payrolls. He has the 123rd highest salary in the league, no idea what he ranks among back up centers with playoff experience...but ok, one 30+ 7 footer signing does not a rebuilding make...you win
You dont have to sign anyone!!! Instead you stop adding contracts to the overblown payroll and you WAIT. This idea that you must use the midlevel exception every year is ridiculous. When your signing a 30+ year old center to a full midlevel exception, you are not rebuilding. You are adding to what you feel is already a quality team ready to make a move to contend.
how much comes off the cap this year? It's been less than 3 years...impatience is your biggest flaw.
if we are under the cap within 5 years of isiah taking over an impossible job (remember the headlines, you must, they were less than 3 year's ago) and turned crappy contracts into a young roster and 4 crappy contracts.
I don't care if it was an impossible job. Isiah's had his turn and he's done a terrible job, time for someone else to try.

Who says we are going to be under the cap ever? Isiah has shown that he will sign a player every year to the mid-level exception, couple that with the fact that we are going to have players that will need to be resigned from their rookie contracts along with trades that Isiah could make and also add that Isiah has shown that he will trade lottery picks for players like Eddy Curry and then sign them to mammoth contracts coming off heart problems.
By 2009, there will be no crappy contracts.

Like I said, impatience is your biggest flaw.

I didn't know you could tell the future. What else is going to happen in 2009? What players is Isiah going to trade for and sign before then? Tell me all this Ms. Cleo.

Impatience is not biggest flaw, I've been plenty patient with Isiah Thomas. Notice you are part of a very small group that is behind Isiah Thomas while the rest of the world calling for his head because they've seen enough of him.

Fanaticism is your biggest flaw.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
fishmike
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10/29/2006  6:12 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

Just a simple question just turned into a bash-a-thon, you guy are like clockwork.
I didn't ask about the cap, past trades and draft.
I asked why are you people giving up on Frye plain and simple
your looking to improve a 59 loss team. Your not giving up on anything. Frye's a center. If I can trade him for a stud PF I do.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
arkrud
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10/29/2006  6:31 PM
With the contracts length and multi-million price tags in todays NBA the concept of rebulding is gone.
The rebulding can take place only:
1. Expansion team
2. The team is destroyed and GM/couch with all their teams are replaced
3. The ownersheep is changed
For Knicks first is not the case, second is what LB tried to do and this failed, third is just a dream.

I cannot see any logical link between no-rebuilding and win-now.
Team can improve and win in 2-3 years without rebuilding if it has a plan (lets leave aside the question if IT has one)
So we should keep Fry and Curry at least for this season and see how they will do with the preasure to win now.
I don't see why we are in any hurry as a Knicks funs. IT is but I care less. Knicks suck for 5 years and another year will not add much to this. We should use this year like boot-camp for the roster we have to see who can be a part of the winner and who should go.

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crzymdups
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10/29/2006  6:33 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by buddapaw:

Just a simple question just turned into a bash-a-thon, you guy are like clockwork.
I didn't ask about the cap, past trades and draft.
I asked why are you people giving up on Frye plain and simple
your looking to improve a 59 loss team. Your not giving up on anything. Frye's a center. If I can trade him for a stud PF I do.

A YOUNG PF who plays defense, yes. This isn't really a 59 loss team. I thought we all agreed the Larry factor was worth a solid 12-15 losses?

but I'm seriously beginning to wonder whether they can play together, Curry and Frye, that is.
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playa2
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10/29/2006  6:35 PM
Have we forgotten when NY plays Dallas and all world Dirk Nowitzki.

What players cough cough PF usually plays dirk Nowitzki tuff.

Is it channing frye no, it's David Lee.
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bobs3304
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10/29/2006  6:37 PM
no doubt, ill take frye 9 times out of 10 over curry.


frye is more suited to a running team than curry, especially since he can shoot, and play more than 25 minutes a game.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  6:57 PM
rofl. we should start lee against dallas only.
Posted by playa2:

Have we forgotten when NY plays Dallas and all world Dirk Nowitzki.

What players cough cough PF usually plays dirk Nowitzki tuff.

Is it channing frye no, it's David Lee.

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King1
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10/29/2006  7:24 PM
I am not big into stats but if you look at every category in the preseason Lee beats Frye in all of them except fouls. Channing hasnt played great defense in the preseason and hasnt rebounded well. Lee is giving a better effort and does rebound and pass better. He has gotten in foul trouble most of the games this preseason. If channing isnt hitting his jumper, then he isnt as effective as Lee. Lee is going to play defense better, rebound better and is a better passer. I think you will see Channing have problems with fouls early in the year, because teams are going to go after him. I am willing to say something stupid but if Frye and lee get the same amount of minutes overall you will the stats close.
nyk4ever
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10/29/2006  7:29 PM
Posted by King1:

I am not big into stats but if you look at every category in the preseason Lee beats Frye in all of them except fouls. Channing hasnt played great defense in the preseason and hasnt rebounded well. Lee is giving a better effort and does rebound and pass better. He has gotten in foul trouble most of the games this preseason. If channing isnt hitting his jumper, then he isnt as effective as Lee. Lee is going to play defense better, rebound better and is a better passer. I think you will see Channing have problems with fouls early in the year, because teams are going to go after him. I am willing to say something stupid but if Frye and lee get the same amount of minutes overall you will the stats close.

Lee has definitely been the more effective player this pre-season and in summer league. I think the only reason some people want Frye to start is because he was the 8th pick in the draft. As of now, the only thing that Frye does effectively is hit wide-open jumpshots. At the same time David Lee is grabbing loose balls, he's rebounding effectively, he's playing defense, he's running the fast-break effectively. Right now David Lee is just playing better than Channing Frye, there are NO if's and's or but's about it.
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fishmike
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10/29/2006  7:54 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by buddapaw:

Just a simple question just turned into a bash-a-thon, you guy are like clockwork.
I didn't ask about the cap, past trades and draft.
I asked why are you people giving up on Frye plain and simple
your looking to improve a 59 loss team. Your not giving up on anything. Frye's a center. If I can trade him for a stud PF I do.

A YOUNG PF who plays defense, yes. This isn't really a 59 loss team. I thought we all agreed the Larry factor was worth a solid 12-15 losses?

but I'm seriously beginning to wonder whether they can play together, Curry and Frye, that is.
its easier to live with the problems Franbury create, because they can both score such a pace. Also both take care of the ball and when you factor in how much they attack the rim they both take high % shots. When both your bigs up front cant defend and control the defensive glass you have big problems. No winning team has that, and no winning team will.

A couple trades I would look at:
Josh Smith
Jamison/Blatch for Jalen/Frye/Nate
Boozer/first rounder for Frye/Jalen
Hakeem Warrick/ 1-2 first rounder(s) for Frye

I think those fit realisticly into the style of ball we want to play as well as Isiah's win now + build tomorrow pretend plan



"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Rich
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10/29/2006  8:01 PM
Suggesting a trade doesn't necessarily equate to "getting rid of" someone.

I would trade any player if it improves the team, including Frye.
EnySpree
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10/29/2006  8:19 PM
Channing frye still has as much chance to improve and curry. Right now curry is better suited for the knicks. Knicks can't just stop what they are doing to set screens for a jumpshooting center. Frye has got to do some dirty work and hold his position down. He's got to basically do what lee does. In other words, maybe the knicks should look into trading him. I wanna see frye get dirty. I don't think that's in his personality.

I'm not afraid to say frye might need to be traded. Its true. Why is it horrible to talk about frye but its perfectly normal to throw curry under the bus?

I will make a prediction. As soon as someone writes that frye is too soft or doesn't fit everyone will jump on that story and use it as a link show their credibility, lol.
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rvhoss
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10/29/2006  8:25 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by King1:

I am not big into stats but if you look at every category in the preseason Lee beats Frye in all of them except fouls. Channing hasnt played great defense in the preseason and hasnt rebounded well. Lee is giving a better effort and does rebound and pass better. He has gotten in foul trouble most of the games this preseason. If channing isnt hitting his jumper, then he isnt as effective as Lee. Lee is going to play defense better, rebound better and is a better passer. I think you will see Channing have problems with fouls early in the year, because teams are going to go after him. I am willing to say something stupid but if Frye and lee get the same amount of minutes overall you will the stats close.

Lee has definitely been the more effective player this pre-season and in summer league. I think the only reason some people want Frye to start is because he was the 8th pick in the draft. As of now, the only thing that Frye does effectively is hit wide-open jumpshots. At the same time David Lee is grabbing loose balls, he's rebounding effectively, he's playing defense, he's running the fast-break effectively. Right now David Lee is just playing better than Channing Frye, there are NO if's and's or but's about it.

i just feel he is doing it against a fatigued first unit and/or under skilled second unit. If he is excelling in his current role of coming off the bench, why suddenly change that role when the season starts?

isn't the idea of preseason is to define roles? I feel Lee's role is well defined.

Extreme opinion alert:
lee's sporadic energy on the court can help and it can hurt, depending on how it's expended. Much like Rodman and Nate as other extreme examples...they can out hustle and go at 200 miles an hour, but once they get tired they have nothing left.

A player like frye is consistent and can give you maximum effort when he's fresh as a daisy and when he's about to collapse.

Players like nate can suddenly implode and do things like land on your franchise centers knee and knock him out for the season.

I love lee, but his 200 mph in the starting lineup is not what we are looking for right now. It would be the equivalent of starting JYD. Just doing it because you want to get off to a random start and not to execute a game plan.

Vinnie "microwave" johnson was a great example of this type of player. Balkman as well...when he's out there, it's like magic on the court, but eventually the other team adjusts and lets you shoot the open jumper, and pays closer attention to you boxing out for rebounds.

It's just not the same as coming in while the game is in flux and the coach wants to use you in a particular situation.

I mean...Lee has been like this his entire career and while he started at Florida (at Center btw) he's still not a better starting option than frye or curry.

you should look to start him at the 3...there's more of an argument to start him there along side BOTH curry and frye.
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rvhoss
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10/29/2006  8:28 PM
I would prefer frye NOT mix it up and do the dirty work early in the season.

I'd prefer he work his way back from injury and then when he's confident against NBA competition to start mixing it up, then mix it up...for now his offense is far more important than him acting like Oakley in an offense better suited for running and an extremely good rebounding back court of Qrich, francis and Jefferies (oh and mardy collins and balkman).
Posted by EnySpree:

Channing frye still has as much chance to improve and curry. Right now curry is better suited for the knicks. Knicks can't just stop what they are doing to set screens for a jumpshooting center. Frye has got to do some dirty work and hold his position down. He's got to basically do what lee does. In other words, maybe the knicks should look into trading him. I wanna see frye get dirty. I don't think that's in his personality.

I'm not afraid to say frye might need to be traded. Its true. Why is it horrible to talk about frye but its perfectly normal to throw curry under the bus?

I will make a prediction. As soon as someone writes that frye is too soft or doesn't fit everyone will jump on that story and use it as a link show their credibility, lol.

all kool aid all the time.
King1
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10/29/2006  8:49 PM
So your trying to say that Frye should not play tough, rebound, and defend. His offense has been terrible in the preseason what is your excuse for that. I think he is a very good player but he isnt getting it done right now
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  8:51 PM
i saw that coming, and he is just off of a season ending knee injury...on another thread everyone is talking about atleast a year.

how quickly we forget.
all kool aid all the time.
What's all this Trade Frye/ Frye is the weak link crap?

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