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nixluva
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10/28/2006  11:58 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by playa2:

VERY WELL SAID JOE.

NY's foundation must be laid or we are another exciting team to watch and the only thing we have to look forward to is indivdual accomplishments from our players.

We've had Chaney, then Lenny coach the players. Mediocre results without really going anywhere.

LB was the only one we had that tried to instill a philosophy-a phliosophy that if combined with the strengths of the players could have been an amazing team.

Now Isiah is here to just coach the players. We are gonna be better than last year. No doubt, but it is going to be something that we aren't gonna be able to actually build on.

Man what the HECK are you talking about? LB didn't want to instill a philosophy, he just wnated to gut the team and start over as if that was an original idea. Hey LB exactly who do we get and how long does it take for your plan to work once we gut the team? LB is a former great coach, but let's not dwell on his tenure here.

Isiah has done a great deal with this team so far and he's just getting started. All I heard was how awful this team would be and how it wouldn't work. I think we at least have to give the guy and this team a chance to get things going before we say that it can't work. Steph and Francis wouldn't work and Curry can't change, these players can't play a complicated motion offense, they won't share the ball...yadda yadda yadda. Well this team has been showing very good signs in all of those categories. We haven't even seen the best of this team yet. We haven't even seen everything Isiah has been working with this team on. He didn't want to show his hand in preseason. Just show some patience and team spirit. Get behind this team cuz I'm telling you they have a chance to be pretty good this year and in the future.
AUTOADVERT
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  7:31 AM
stfu? man...what a baby.

good post joec.

the theme seems to be that the proof is in the pudding...but we should all try our best to just ignore last year.

that wasn't any LB I ever saw coach and none of those players were players I recognized.

now, hopefully, we get a chance to see the real everybody.

46 wins.

frye was talking to isiah before the game and the next thing you know he has 3 fouls and cato is in the game.

that's all i'm saying. there is more than one way to coach.
all kool aid all the time.
Silverfuel
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10/29/2006  7:35 AM
Posted by nixluva:

Man what the HECK are you talking about? LB didn't want to instill a philosophy, he just wnated to gut the team and start over as if that was an original idea. Hey LB exactly who do we get and how long does it take for your plan to work once we gut the team? LB is a former great coach, but let's not dwell on his tenure here.

Isiah has done a great deal with this team so far and he's just getting started. All I heard was how awful this team would be and how it wouldn't work. I think we at least have to give the guy and this team a chance to get things going before we say that it can't work. Steph and Francis wouldn't work and Curry can't change, these players can't play a complicated motion offense, they won't share the ball...yadda yadda yadda. Well this team has been showing very good signs in all of those categories. We haven't even seen the best of this team yet. We haven't even seen everything Isiah has been working with this team on. He didn't want to show his hand in preseason. Just show some patience and team spirit. Get behind this team cuz I'm telling you they have a chance to be pretty good this year and in the future.
Good post nixluva. I'm glad you found ultimateknicks when you did.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  7:52 AM
no doubt
all kool aid all the time.
joec32033
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10/29/2006  8:12 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by playa2:

VERY WELL SAID JOE.

NY's foundation must be laid or we are another exciting team to watch and the only thing we have to look forward to is indivdual accomplishments from our players.

We've had Chaney, then Lenny coach the players. Mediocre results without really going anywhere.

LB was the only one we had that tried to instill a philosophy-a phliosophy that if combined with the strengths of the players could have been an amazing team.

Now Isiah is here to just coach the players. We are gonna be better than last year. No doubt, but it is going to be something that we aren't gonna be able to actually build on.

Man what the HECK are you talking about? LB didn't want to instill a philosophy, he just wnated to gut the team and start over as if that was an original idea. Hey LB exactly who do we get and how long does it take for your plan to work once we gut the team? LB is a former great coach, but let's not dwell on his tenure here.

Isiah has done a great deal with this team so far and he's just getting started. All I heard was how awful this team would be and how it wouldn't work. I think we at least have to give the guy and this team a chance to get things going before we say that it can't work. Steph and Francis wouldn't work and Curry can't change, these players can't play a complicated motion offense, they won't share the ball...yadda yadda yadda. Well this team has been showing very good signs in all of those categories. We haven't even seen the best of this team yet. We haven't even seen everything Isiah has been working with this team on. He didn't want to show his hand in preseason. Just show some patience and team spirit. Get behind this team cuz I'm telling you they have a chance to be pretty good this year and in the future.

I am not downplaying anything Isiah has done. Yet. All I am saying is that if you don't have the players and the system fit well, you aren't going anywhere meaningful.

Isiah has some guys that play well in half court systems(Francis, Steph, Craw, Curry) and he has role players who are better in a running system(Q, Frye, Lee, Nate, Balkman). Now one side to it-and this is the side I think I saw you say it was beneficial-was it makes us more versatile. Which is true. But it also hurts. Having a team learn one system is hard enough. Trying to teach two is damn near impossible.

If you think LB was trying to gut the team, I know I am not gonna change your mind, so I'm not gonna try. I believe he was trying to instill a system here and by doing that he would gut the players who didn't fit it.

Either way-taking names out of it-your team has to have a philosophy and from that philosophy develop an identity. LLook at some of the best teams over the past few years.Detroit, SA, Miami, Phx., LA(when they were winning titles). All had a system that each player had to be committed to and they didn't chase guys who didn't fit.

Chicago is another team that does the same. Gritty, tough it out workers. Gordon is probably the worst defender on the team and he is considered at least average.

Point is, you have to have both players and a system in which they fit to really be meaningfully successful. I don't think the Knicks have that. They are obviously developing a system as they go and would prefer to just let the players play.
~You can't run from who you are.~
oohah
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10/29/2006  8:17 AM
I am not downplaying anything Isiah has done. Yet. All I am saying is that if you don't have the players and the system fit well, you aren't going anywhere meaningful.

Isiah has some guys that play well in half court systems(Francis, Steph, Craw, Curry) and he has role players who are better in a running system(Q, Frye, Lee, Nate, Balkman). Now one side to it-and this is the side I think I saw you say it was beneficial-was it makes us more versatile. Which is true. But it also hurts. Having a team learn one system is hard enough. Trying to teach two is damn near impossible.

I though Marbury, Francis, and Curry looked pretty damn good running the other day, didn't you?

I have yet to hear a good explanation of why Marbury or Francis can't run. Is it becuase they have not played on running teams in the NBA before?
If you think LB was trying to gut the team, I know I am not gonna change your mind, so I'm not gonna try. I believe he was trying to instill a system here and by doing that he would gut the players who didn't fit it.

He wanted to trade 5 players, plus he got Ariza traded. That is half the team right there! What else can that be but gutting?
Either way-taking names out of it-your team has to have a philosophy and from that philosophy develop an identity. LLook at some of the best teams over the past few years.Detroit, SA, Miami, Phx., LA(when they were winning titles). All had a system that each player had to be committed to and they didn't chase guys who didn't fit.

Chicago is another team that does the same. Gritty, tough it out workers. Gordon is probably the worst defender on the team and he is considered at least average.

Point is, you have to have both players and a system in which they fit to really be meaningfully successful. I don't think the Knicks have that. They are obviously developing a system as they go and would prefer to just let the players play.

There is not one player on this team that cannot play well in an uptempo system.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Silverfuel
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10/29/2006  8:22 AM
joe: you wrote so much but it means so little.
Now Isiah is here to just coach the players. We are gonna be better than last year. No doubt, but it is going to be something that we aren't gonna be able to actually build on.
I also have a problem with that line! How do you know its not something that we can build on? What makes you think it would be any different than last year with LB losing on purpose?
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
joec32033
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10/29/2006  8:47 AM
I though Marbury, Francis, and Curry looked pretty damn good running the other day, didn't you?

I have yet to hear a good explanation of why Marbury or Francis can't run. Is it becuase they have not played on running teams in the NBA before?
Because pounding the ball for 15 seconds before you make a pass is not conducive to a running team. Curry's main advantages-size and quickeness-are negated when he has to run.
He wanted to trade 5 players, plus he got Ariza traded. That is half the team right there! What else can that be but gutting?
I never said he didn't want to gut the team. I said he wanted to gut the team of players that weren't fitting into the style and philosophy he runs...which was half the team.
There is not one player on this team that cannot play well in an uptempo system.
Malik Rose


Seriously, Phx is the ultimate uptempo team and Steph didn't fit there. Francis was always in ISO guy in Houston. That couldn't really direct a team. Curry, I don't think is in good enough shape to run unless we plan on giving him only 25 minutes per night.
~You can't run from who you are.~
joec32033
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10/29/2006  8:49 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

joe: you wrote so much but it means so little.
Now Isiah is here to just coach the players. We are gonna be better than last year. No doubt, but it is going to be something that we aren't gonna be able to actually build on.
I also have a problem with that line! How do you know its not something that we can build on? What makes you think it would be any different than last year with LB losing on purpose?
Sorry you feel that way Silver. However if you actually do the research, you'll see that what I posted is factual. I'll try to keep my post less voluminous in the near future though. I should be able to get my point across in fewer words, so I wouldn't have to explain it so much.
~You can't run from who you are.~
Silverfuel
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10/29/2006  9:06 AM
not personal joe, i hope u know that. your only point is "in my opinion the knicks dont have the kinda of players for the style isiah wants to coach." thats not a fact and "We are gonna be better than last year. No doubt, but it is going to be something that we aren't gonna be able to actually build on" has no factual basis. Its your speculation.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
joec32033
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10/29/2006  9:21 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

not personal joe, i hope u know that. your only point is "in my opinion the knicks dont have the kinda of players for the style isiah wants to coach." thats not a fact and "We are gonna be better than last year. No doubt, but it is going to be something that we aren't gonna be able to actually build on" has no factual basis. Its your speculation.

I know it's not personal. My only point, when digging through the verbage is that it is more efficient and overall better to pick how you want to play and get players that fit that, as opposed to gettig players than sort of figuring out how you want to play.

I can point to alot of teams that such as the Warriors, Bucks, Philly, Atlanta, Denver, NY...they just pick up good players(or at least try to) and hope for the est and ask questions later.

Teams like Dallas, PHX, SA, Detroit-all build their teams around a system, not a system around a team. The ONLY team that is the exeption in my mind is Miami, and that was because somehow Riles got players like Antoine Walker and Jason Williams to buy into the system he was preaching(Maybe Zo and Shaq had something to do with that).

[Edited by - joec32033 on 10-29-2006 10:04 AM]
~You can't run from who you are.~
islesfan
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10/29/2006  10:39 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

stfu? man...what a baby.

Yeah, I'm a baby because I take offense to you attempting to ridicule my ethnicity.

You're a racist ***hole.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Killa4luv
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10/29/2006  11:21 AM
Posted by nixluva:

Man what the HECK are you talking about? LB didn't want to instill a philosophy, he just wnated to gut the team and start over as if that was an original idea. Hey LB exactly who do we get and how long does it take for your plan to work once we gut the team? LB is a former great coach, but let's not dwell on his tenure here.

Isiah has done a great deal with this team so far and he's just getting started. All I heard was how awful this team would be and how it wouldn't work. I think we at least have to give the guy and this team a chance to get things going before we say that it can't work. Steph and Francis wouldn't work and Curry can't change, these players can't play a complicated motion offense, they won't share the ball...yadda yadda yadda. Well this team has been showing very good signs in all of those categories. We haven't even seen the best of this team yet. We haven't even seen everything Isiah has been working with this team on. He didn't want to show his hand in preseason. Just show some patience and team spirit. Get behind this team cuz I'm telling you they have a chance to be pretty good this year and in the future.

Thanks for saving me from having to say it myself.
rvhoss
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10/29/2006  11:29 AM
Once again, another quote from another poster that makes no sense whatsoever this year.

Stop biting.
Posted by joec32033:

Because pounding the ball for 15 seconds before you make a pass is not conducive to a running team.

did you even watch the net game? did he pound the ball at all?
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oohah
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10/29/2006  11:48 AM
Because pounding the ball for 15 seconds before you make a pass is not conducive to a running team. Curry's main advantages-size and quickeness-are negated when he has to run.

Looking at the system and how it has been run this pre-season, there is no evidence tis will be the case.
I never said he didn't want to gut the team. I said he wanted to gut the team of players that weren't fitting into the style and philosophy he runs...which was half the team.

Okay...
Malik Rose

I said PLAYERS!
Seriously, Phx is the ultimate uptempo team and Steph didn't fit there. Francis was always in ISO guy in Houston. That couldn't really direct a team. Curry, I don't think is in good enough shape to run unless we plan on giving him only 25 minutes per night.

Steph was there for 13 games with D'antoni, Francis ran in collge, and just because he was played in an iso style does not mean he can't playa different way, Curry 25 minutes? If that is all he can play,fine, as long as he plays hard during that time!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
King1
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10/29/2006  11:57 AM
Damn I was drunk after the world series and started a thread about how we should cut Jalen Rose, and it get all hateful. We need to hug it out bitch.
bigbeast
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10/29/2006  12:08 PM
Joe, Curry's size and quickness make him a good candidate to be successful in a push offense. Curry is at his best when he catches the ball on the move as apposed to standing on the block waiting for the ball. This is when he usually bull-rushes over the ooposition.

Marbury, Francis and Craw are tailor made for the open-floor. All have good ballhandling skills are capable passers, explosive and great finishers.

BTW, you mentioned Miami as a team with a set philosphy. Im not going to disagree, but answer me this. What was your take when Miami broke-up the squad that lost to Detroit in seven 2 yrs ago? I remember everyone killing Riley for breaking up that squad and bringing in J Will/ and chemistry killer Antione Walker. When they got off to s slow start and Van Gundy resigned, nobody thought that team was capable of winning it all.

Did you really think that J Will and Walker were intrical parts to a championship?
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
joec32033
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10/29/2006  12:31 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Once again, another quote from another poster that makes no sense whatsoever this year.

Stop biting.
Posted by joec32033:

Because pounding the ball for 15 seconds before you make a pass is not conducive to a running team.

did you even watch the net game? did he pound the ball at all?

Hater, Hater Hater....you used that word more than you change your underwear. If you believe I avoid adult conversation cool. Don't respond to me. Stop trying to call me out. You did it once and tripped because you backpeddled so fast. Now you call me out and then assert that I was the one who started it? Not only do you have reading comprehension problems, you also seem to have reading, and chronological issues.

If you feel I can't engage adult conversation fine. You have your belief and I don't wish to change it because, well, I really don't value your opinion as some of the others on this board as you have yet to back up one fact you have ever posted and have yet to had a conversation that has not denegrated into you calling people "haters" and "not real Knick fans".

I'm here to discuss the Knicks, and I personally feel you really know nothing about them. You seemed ok to give your opinion on my basketball knowledge in another thread-first-so I will return in kind. Do I think you really care what I think? Well I myself haven't thought about it much because I really don't care.

And before you start all the "hater" crap again and that I am insulting you because you are a "real fan", let me first say Nixluva at the very least is capable of supporting his own theories and ideas. You have no such talent. If you want to be antagonistic fine. Go ahead. But obviously, if you are as high and mighty as you say you are you won't respond to this or any of my posts in the future-because I know damn well it leads nowhere when I respond to yours.

Keep on crying RV, Keep on crying, I imagine you tend to do alot of that at night since all of us "haters" can't understand the new and emotional NY Knicks.

Good luck with those "adult conversations", hoss. I have a feeling you'll need it.
~You can't run from who you are.~
joec32033
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10/29/2006  12:37 PM
Looking at the system and how it has been run this pre-season, there is no evidence tis will be the case.
The offense has looked good in preseason, no doubt, but talk to me at around game 25 when we are well into the season and the new vibe has worn off a little. If Isiah gets Steph and Steve to to change their game after 9 and 10 yrs in the league respectively, I will be one of the first to comment him for it.
I said PLAYERS!
Actually that comment was a joke. Sorry, dry satire doesn't convey well over the internet.
Steph was there for 13 games with D'antoni, Francis ran in collge, and just because he was played in an iso style does not mean he can't playa different way, Curry 25 minutes? If that is all he can play,fine, as long as he plays hard during that time!
Steph was there for 13 games under D'Antoni-then they traded him because they decided he didn't fit their offense!
Francis ran in college, but what about the pros?
Eddy Curry averaged 26.8 minutes this preseason.http://www.nba.com/knicks/stats/
If all Curry can play is 27 minutes per game, we need a better backup center than Cato.
~You can't run from who you are.~
oohah
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10/29/2006  12:43 PM
Actually that comment was a joke. Sorry, dry satire doesn't convey well over the internet.

Apparently not, because I was joking too.
Steph was there for 13 games under D'Antoni-then they traded him because they decided he didn't fit their offense!
Francis ran in college, but what about the pros?
Eddy Curry averaged 26.8 minutes this preseason.http://www.nba.com/knicks/stats/
If all Curry can play is 27 minutes per game, we need a better backup center than Cato.

It's not all bad Joe is it?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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