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Poll: How many games should Isiah have to win to save his job?
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SugarRayRichardson
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This will be the 4th year Isiah has been GM or coach. He took over a Layden team that won 37 games. He has totally changed the team. He has made many good moves and several bad moves. But the bottom line is in this 4th year this is 100% Isiahs guys. You cant blame anyone else anymore. He is the coach. He is the GM. Every player on the team is a guy Isiah brought in. So how many games should he have to win to keep his job?
23 wins
24 wins
37 wins
41 wins
42 wins
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oohah
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10/23/2006  9:37 AM
So what you're saying is that now we are giving Isiah a hange to start all over with a clean slate as a coach? With players that he brought in that would fit the system he wanted to impliment?

I am saying that getting the team to learn the system and develop cohesion will probably take time. It not about a slate of any type. It's about reality.

Saying 45 wins minimum; a 22 game/100% improvement, is not fair. You're holding Isiah to a higher standard than you held an HOF coach last year.

Come on Joe, you're being a tad biased, don't you think?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 23-10-2006 09:40 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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oohah
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10/23/2006  9:40 AM

I am being fair. So are we now expecting this team to be 10-15 games under .500 after 3 months?

No, I am not saying anything extreme like that. What I am saying is that expecting a 100% improvement for IT to hold his job is not fair. You expect the Knicks to go from 2nd worst to amongst the better teams that quickly? That is neither fair nor realistic. In fact, you are setting yourself up to be unhappy with the results.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
joec32033
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10/23/2006  9:47 AM
Posted by oohah:
So what you're saying is that now we are giving Isiah a hange to start all over with a clean slate as a coach? With players that he brought in that would fit the system he wanted to impliment?

I am saying that getting the team to learn the system and develop cohesion will probably take time. It not about a slate of any type. It's about reality.

Saying 45 wins minimum; a 22 game/100% improvement, is not fair. You're holding Isiah to a higher standard than you held an HOF coach last year.

Come on Joe, you're being a tad biased, don't you think?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 23-10-2006 09:40 AM]

No, I am not saying anything extreme like that. What I am saying is that expecting a 100% improvement for IT to hold his job is not fair. You expect the Knicks to go from 2nd worst to amongst the better teams that quickly? That is neither fair nor realistic. In fact, you are setting yourself up to be unhappy with the results.

No, I'm not. We brought in Larry we expected to be very good. It didn't work out. Everyone from Isiah down is saying last season was an abberation, it shouldn't count, the team wasn't that bad, it was all Larry's fault.

Fine. That is the position I am taking. Last season didn't happen. no 23 win season. No 2005-2006. The players love the coach, the coach loves the players. I personally think this team has 50 win talent.

Now we are using last season as a starting point? BS. It's one or the other. If it was all Larry as alot of you guys are saying, fine. The season before Larry, we were 33 and 49. And we have better talent. Most people are expecting a 15 win improvement this season. I am only expecting a 13 win improvement from 2 season's ago because everyone is saying that Larry is 90% to blame for last season.
~You can't run from who you are.~
oohah
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10/23/2006  9:59 AM
No, I'm not. We brought in Larry we expected to be very good. It didn't work out. Everyone from Isiah down is saying last season was an abberation, it shouldn't count, the team wasn't that bad, it was all Larry's fault.

Fine. That is the position I am taking. Last season didn't happen. no 23 win season. No 2005-2006. The players love the coach, the coach loves the players. I personally think this team has 50 win talent.

Now we are using last season as a starting point? BS. It's one or the other. If it was all Larry as alot of you guys are saying, fine. The season before Larry, we were 33 and 49. And we have better talent. Most people are expecting a 15 win improvement this season. I am only expecting a 13 win improvement from 2 season's ago because everyone is saying that Larry is 90% to blame for last season.

It was an abberation. That is why what we should be expecting this season is what should have happened last season. Around .500 and a chance at the playoffs. Expecting a 13 game improvement over the season before last last season would have been unfair to LB.

In any case we have to use last season as a starting point no matter why we feel it happened. Because that was last season. It happened. The only real exception would be a Spurs lose Tim Duncan type of situation.

Last question: If LB had not been fired would you say he would have to double his win total to keep his job this year? After all, this team has 50 win talent. That would be fair, wouldn't it?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
SugarRayRichardson
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10/23/2006  10:07 AM
The NBA season runs Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May

Isiah was hired Dec 2003
So what year is this for him? Looks to me he is entering his 4th year. Does missing the first 26 games of the 2003 mean this will not be his 4th year? Thats less than 1/3 of the season.

2003: 56 games plus 4 playoff games
2004: 82 games
2005: 82 games
2006: To be determined
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
joec32033
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10/23/2006  10:08 AM
Posted by oohah:
No, I'm not. We brought in Larry we expected to be very good. It didn't work out. Everyone from Isiah down is saying last season was an abberation, it shouldn't count, the team wasn't that bad, it was all Larry's fault.

Fine. That is the position I am taking. Last season didn't happen. no 23 win season. No 2005-2006. The players love the coach, the coach loves the players. I personally think this team has 50 win talent.

Now we are using last season as a starting point? BS. It's one or the other. If it was all Larry as alot of you guys are saying, fine. The season before Larry, we were 33 and 49. And we have better talent. Most people are expecting a 15 win improvement this season. I am only expecting a 13 win improvement from 2 season's ago because everyone is saying that Larry is 90% to blame for last season.

It was an abberation. That is why what we should be expecting this season is what should have happened last season. Around .500 and a chance at the playoffs. Expecting a 13 game improvement over the season before last last season would have been unfair to LB.

In any case we have to use last season as a starting point no matter why we feel it happened. Because that was last season. It happened. The only real exception would be a Spurs lose Tim Duncan type of situation.

Last question: If LB had not been fired would you say he would have to double his win total to keep his job this year? After all, this team has 50 win talent. That would be fair, wouldn't it?

oohah

In using last season as a measuring point, you are shifting the responsibility off of Larry and onto the players.

I am judging my number by the company line. If the players held some accountability, I would put my number somewhere around .500 or a little less. If they all truly hold the belief it was all Larry's fault, they have no reason to suck this year.
~You can't run from who you are.~
djsunyc
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10/23/2006  10:11 AM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

The NBA season runs Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May

Isiah was hired Dec 2003
So what year is this for him? Looks to me he is entering his 4th year. Does missing the first 26 games of the 2003 mean this will not be his 4th year? Thats less than 1/3 of the season.

2003: 56 games plus 4 playoff games
2004: 82 games
2005: 82 games
2006: To be determined

3 drafts, 3 summers, 3 MLE's, and 4 trading deadlines
oohah
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10/23/2006  10:16 AM
I am judging my number by the company line. If the players held some accountability, I would put my number somewhere around .500 or a little less. If they all truly hold the belief it was all Larry's fault, they have no reason to suck this year.

I am more interested in your opinion. In any case, the company line is "measurable improvement".

I am not shiftng the responsibility. I am saying that things take time to develop. That is all.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
SugarRayRichardson
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10/23/2006  10:20 AM
Measurable improvement to me is not another losing season.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
joec32033
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10/23/2006  10:23 AM
Posted by oohah:
I am judging my number by the company line. If the players held some accountability, I would put my number somewhere around .500 or a little less. If they all truly hold the belief it was all Larry's fault, they have no reason to suck this year.

I am more interested in your opinion. In any case, the company line is "measurable improvement".

I am not shiftng the responsibility. I am saying that things take time to develop. That is all.

oohah

Isiah has said that Larry, didn't coach the team right. The players said Larry didn't coach the team right. Dolan said that Larry didn't coach the team right. I personally think that they feel they are right(because they didn't bother to learn what Larry was trying to teach). That's fine. An average coach to me could coach this team to 39-42 wins if they let the players play just offense, and play the same one dimensional games they alaways have-and don't get confused, LB tried to make them better, I am talking about a coach who just doesn't feel any need to help the players improve-. I said before I think Isiah is an above average coach, the players wanted him and him only. He hand picked these players. To me that means I should have a higher expectation for this team, which I do.
~You can't run from who you are.~
BlueSeats
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10/23/2006  11:18 AM
We've got to worry less about the present and more about the future. I understand where Dolan is coming from in telling isiah to evidence that the knicks are on the right track, and I don't blame him for not quantifying it. One will just get a sense if they like the way things are looking/feeling or not. And I don't blame Dolan for allow himself to consider his personal feelings, like if he trusts the guy and enjoys their working relationship. Front office harmony is important when that's where you operate.

But if I allow myself (clearly a relatively poorly informed outsider) the same considerations I don't really trust Isiah because of what I perceive to be his poor managerial skills. This team has just been so filled with drama over his tenure. People are either "his guys" and golden, or they're outsiders who he will bloody and kick to the curb. So far his relationship with Marbury has been extremely divisive with little gains to show for it. His comments that "shot blocking is overrated" is not only offensive to mutombo, but Ewing as well. Ditto comments like "NY is a guard town."

His handling of Chaney was scary. Wilkens = shameful. Brown = embarrassing. Anuscha = unlawful. Joe Favorito = excessive (this was another guy in the marketing department who isiah got in a wild argument with, which echoed through the halls and resulted in his firing). The changeover of the entire medical and training staff = probably unwarranted (some of those trainers had been on staff for eons and were considered tops in the field). the jobs to Marbury's cousins = indulgent. The loss of Marv Albert = unforgivable.

So when guys like charlie Ward call the Knicks immature I think he speaks not only of Marbury, but Isiah too. And when multitudinous commentators reflect on our bad management they speak not only of Brown and Dolan but of Isiah too. When people talk about this team having poor chemistry they don't just mean on the court, but also divided locker rooms as well as divisions between the GM, his coaches, and the entirety of the MSG staff.

Sure isiah is a good drafter, but his job is much bigger than that. And while he's evidenced an eye for raw athleticism, I'm not sure he's got an eye for fundamentals, leadership, chemistry, tough mindedness, and bball IQ. Lets remember, a lot of his recent acquisitions are guys Brown was said to covet. And we've seen from the Layden years that lesser talents can out perform Isiah's just by losing their egos, avoiding distractions and playing as a team.

So for me to trust Isiah as our manager going forward I'd need to see him get off his Napoleon complex and evidence mature, sure footed leadership. He needs to shut down the "circus" NOW!!! That has to be be the first order of business if any wins are to be sustainable. Short term success followed by another circus act does nothing for me.
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Poll: How many games should Isiah have to win to save his job?
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