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TrueBlue
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10/15/2006  9:03 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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TrueBlue
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10/15/2006  9:06 PM
Posted by BigC:

I think we seriously need to atleast wait until December before we start doing back flips about us beating a Nets team with no VC, and Kid. And then playing a Philly team with no front court players.

That's exactly what I'm getting at. The Knicks didn't do that bad in pre-season last yr considering they were competitive in all games but 1.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
wsdm
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10/15/2006  9:06 PM
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?

Which players on the Knicks are one dimensional?
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nyk4ever
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10/15/2006  9:08 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BigC:

I think we seriously need to atleast wait until December before we start doing back flips about us beating a Nets team with no VC, and Kid. And then playing a Philly team with no front court players.

Sixers are worse when Webber plays. they lost to a Euro team with Webber, first real NBA team to lose a Euro team. they beat PHX without Webber.

Dalembert is no prom queen, either.

Your not serious when you say that the Sixers are "worse" when Webber plays are you? I mean to base your thinking on a preseason game that means absolutely nothing to the Sixers and everything to a Euro team is borderline ridiculous. These are preseason games...

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-15-2006 9:08 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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10/15/2006  9:11 PM
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?

I didn't say any of that. I said Larry is a horrible offensive coach. Find me a team of his that was great offensively and I'll take a look, but his Pistons jumped from being mediocre offensively to being the best offensive team in the league, his Pacers were bad offensively then Larry Bird came in and they got much better, his Sixers teams were awful offensively, the Knicks were one of the worst offensive teams in the league, despite having a roster loaded with firepower. I can pretty much guarantee you the Knicks will experience a huge jump in their offensive ranking, too.

That doesn't mean only one coach can coach this team - but it certainly means Larry Brown couldn't. His offense is too complicated with all the wrong things, he hates the 3p fg and almost every team in the playoffs last year except the Clippers, I believe, made more 3pfg than their opponent on average. He's bad on offense, and since he doesn't believe the zone defense is "right" and all the playoff teams used the zone, including the two finalists, I'd say that aspect of the game has passed him by too.

As for the Pistons doing better under Brown - that's mainly due to whether Dwyane Wade was healthy or not, and before Wade the Nets.
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crzymdups
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10/15/2006  9:12 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BigC:

I think we seriously need to atleast wait until December before we start doing back flips about us beating a Nets team with no VC, and Kid. And then playing a Philly team with no front court players.

Sixers are worse when Webber plays. they lost to a Euro team with Webber, first real NBA team to lose a Euro team. they beat PHX without Webber.

Dalembert is no prom queen, either.

Your not serious when you say that the Sixers are "worse" when Webber plays are you? I mean to base your thinking on a preseason game that means absolutely nothing to the Sixers and everything to a Euro team is borderline ridiculous. These are preseason games...

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-15-2006 9:08 PM]

Webber is a joke now. I love him as a player, but he's done. He's atrocious. He makes Mo Taylor look like a savvy defender.
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nyk4ever
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10/15/2006  9:15 PM
Posted by crzymdups:



Webber is a joke now. I love him as a player, but he's done. He's atrocious. He makes Mo Taylor look like a savvy defender.

That maybe so but Webber still put up 20ppg 10 rpg and 3.5 assists a game. I understand he's playing on one-leg but he still rebounds well, and holds his opponents to less points than he's scoring.
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crzymdups
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10/15/2006  9:16 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:



Webber is a joke now. I love him as a player, but he's done. He's atrocious. He makes Mo Taylor look like a savvy defender.

That maybe so but Webber still put up 20ppg 10 rpg and 3.5 assists a game. I understand he's playing on one-leg but he still rebounds well, and holds his opponents to less points than he's scoring.

what's his FG%? whenever I've seen him play as a Sixer, he's been awful.
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joec32033
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10/15/2006  9:17 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?

I didn't say any of that. I said Larry is a horrible offensive coach. Find me a team of his that was great offensively and I'll take a look, but his Pistons jumped from being mediocre offensively to being the best offensive team in the league, his Pacers were bad offensively then Larry Bird came in and they got much better, his Sixers teams were awful offensively, the Knicks were one of the worst offensive teams in the league, despite having a roster loaded with firepower. I can pretty much guarantee you the Knicks will experience a huge jump in their offensive ranking, too.

That doesn't mean only one coach can coach this team - but it certainly means Larry Brown couldn't. His offense is too complicated with all the wrong things, he hates the 3p fg and almost every team in the playoffs last year except the Clippers, I believe, made more 3pfg than their opponent on average. He's bad on offense, and since he doesn't believe the zone defense is "right" and all the playoff teams used the zone, including the two finalists, I'd say that aspect of the game has passed him by too.

As for the Pistons doing better under Brown - that's mainly due to whether Dwyane Wade was healthy or not, and before Wade the Nets.

There was almost an entire thread that was said about this where Larry's teams actually usually got better on offense after he got there. I can't find it though:::cough:::cough:::find feature:::cough:::
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TrueBlue
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10/15/2006  9:17 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?

Which players on the Knicks are one dimensional?

Is this a joke ?. I'd like crazymadups to explain why a defensive minded coach couldn't have success with this club? Just a side point though in regards to Zeke's offensive mind the Pacers weren't all that great of a club when he was their coach considering the talent on the Pacers Squad

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings?season=2002 96ppg
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings?season=2003 96ppg

But he did seem to be an adequate defenive coach 95PA and 93PA respectively those seasons. So it would appear to me that these Knicks will improve defensively or play it well under him vs Larry. If they do then it all gets back to, they didn't want to do for Larry but will for Zeke.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
nyk4ever
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10/15/2006  9:18 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:



Webber is a joke now. I love him as a player, but he's done. He's atrocious. He makes Mo Taylor look like a savvy defender.

That maybe so but Webber still put up 20ppg 10 rpg and 3.5 assists a game. I understand he's playing on one-leg but he still rebounds well, and holds his opponents to less points than he's scoring.

what's his FG%? whenever I've seen him play as a Sixer, he's been awful.

Your right, his FG% was kinda low last year - 44% Still, to say that the Sixers are a worse team when he is on the court is a bit of an exaggeration, he's not THAT bad... yet.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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10/15/2006  9:21 PM
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?

Which players on the Knicks are one dimensional?

Is this a joke ?. I'd like crazymadups to explain why a defensive minded coach couldn't have success with this club? Just a side point though in regards to Zeke's offensive mind the Pacers weren't all that great of a club when he was their coach considering the talent on the Pacers Squad

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings?season=2002 96ppg
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings?season=2003 96ppg

But he did seem to be an adequate defenive coach 95PA and 93PA respectively those seasons. So it would appear to me that these Knicks will improve defensively or play it well under him vs Larry. If they do then it all gets back to, they didn't want to do for Larry but will for Zeke.

I didn't say he was a defensive-minded coach - I said he was a horrendous offensive coach. He's just atrocious. He's a joke. Is that not clear or something?

If you want to get into the other reasons why Brown was so awful in NY, we can talk about the fact that he wasn't trying to win games, set a record for lineups, ripped his players for no reason and smelled funny. But I'm just talking about his prowess as an offensive coach - which is traditionally pathetic. I betcha the Knicks offense is much improved this season, despite the fact there have been no major offensive additions.
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TheGame
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10/15/2006  9:23 PM


Originally posted by Seatsblue:
There have been some good things such as the players committing to the motion offense but let's not condone the fact they are shooting 16% from 3pt and 43% fg against weak 2nd and 3rd/NBDL string defenses.

I like IT's new system but what we should really be concerned with is the lack of shooting, especially 3pt shooting. We have absolutely no consistent 3pt threats. All our guards are streak shooters. IT is trying to compensate by creating more passing and motion toward the basket, but it is troubling how bad we are shooting from 3pt range. I am not sure what IT can do about this. Hopefully, it is just still early and the players are getting into their shooting groove but this worries me even more than Curry's inconsistent play.
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TrueBlue
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10/15/2006  9:23 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?

I didn't say any of that. I said Larry is a horrible offensive coach. Find me a team of his that was great offensively and I'll take a look, but his Pistons jumped from being mediocre offensively to being the best offensive team in the league, his Pacers were bad offensively then Larry Bird came in and they got much better, his Sixers teams were awful offensively, the Knicks were one of the worst offensive teams in the league, despite having a roster loaded with firepower. I can pretty much guarantee you the Knicks will experience a huge jump in their offensive ranking, too.

That doesn't mean only one coach can coach this team - but it certainly means Larry Brown couldn't. His offense is too complicated with all the wrong things, he hates the 3p fg and almost every team in the playoffs last year except the Clippers, I believe, made more 3pfg than their opponent on average. He's bad on offense, and since he doesn't believe the zone defense is "right" and all the playoff teams used the zone, including the two finalists, I'd say that aspect of the game has passed him by too.

As for the Pistons doing better under Brown - that's mainly due to whether Dwyane Wade was healthy or not, and before Wade the Nets.



LMFAO and he got the Pacers to the ECF, he got the Sixers to the Finals and he got to the Finals 2 with Det and won 1. So for all his suckiness as an offensive coach can you explain why it worked everywhere except here? The game has passed him by? LOL he's been a part of the last 3 championships and came close with exception to a Tim Duncan heroism of winning 2 of the last 3 champiosnhips.


[Edited by - SeatsBlue on 10-15-2006 8:28 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
crzymdups
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10/15/2006  9:25 PM
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?

I didn't say any of that. I said Larry is a horrible offensive coach. Find me a team of his that was great offensively and I'll take a look, but his Pistons jumped from being mediocre offensively to being the best offensive team in the league, his Pacers were bad offensively then Larry Bird came in and they got much better, his Sixers teams were awful offensively, the Knicks were one of the worst offensive teams in the league, despite having a roster loaded with firepower. I can pretty much guarantee you the Knicks will experience a huge jump in their offensive ranking, too.

That doesn't mean only one coach can coach this team - but it certainly means Larry Brown couldn't. His offense is too complicated with all the wrong things, he hates the 3p fg and almost every team in the playoffs last year except the Clippers, I believe, made more 3pfg than their opponent on average. He's bad on offense, and since he doesn't believe the zone defense is "right" and all the playoff teams used the zone, including the two finalists, I'd say that aspect of the game has passed him by too.

As for the Pistons doing better under Brown - that's mainly due to whether Dwyane Wade was healthy or not, and before Wade the Nets.



LMFAO and he got the Pacers to the ECF, he got the Sizers to the Finals and he got to the Finals 2 with Det and won 1. So for all his suckiness as an offensive coach can you explain why it worked everywhere except here? The game has passed him by? LOL he's been a part of the last 3 championships and came close with exception to a Tim Duncan heroism of winning 2 of the last 3 champiosnhips.

"it worked"? He was an awful offensive coach. Those were awful offensive teams. This is a statement of fact.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 15-10-2006 9:26 PM]
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10/15/2006  9:32 PM
In terms of the key players on this team LB had most of them and what he looked to do with the team was nothing like what Isiah is doing. Sure we haven't seen Isiah's entire playbook, but the underlying approach is different. LB is a great defensive coach and he generally likes to play a controlled offense. Limit mistakes and take few risks. It's a basic approach that can net good results. What he does isn't very radical or spectacular, but if a team plays his kind of fundamentally sound ball they can win games. Still even tho he's won a lot of games in the NBA, he has one actual championship to show for his approach. I personally think it's a sound approach, but it also makes for a very tight margin for error. I think this is why he's had trouble winning titles. If his teams aren't completely shutting the other team down or if their offense is a little off, they often don't have another gear to their game. They can't survive mistakes or defensive let downs.

In any event I think we have a long way to go with this Knicks team, but I like the approach for THIS GROUP. Isiah is doing what we thought LB was gonna do. MAXIMIZE strengths and MINIMIZE weaknesses. He looked at his team and is figuring out a way to be successful with it. Sure our players have a lot of flaws, but don't put them in a position to fail! Isiah has used honey instead of vinegar and for this group it appears to be working. To me he's simply using his head. This is only preseason, but you can see how this style of play can help this team to be more successful as long as they still make a commitment to playing D. We still have some guys who aren't as committed on D, but I think we have enough guys who will do that to make this work.

[Edited by - nixluva on 10-15-2006 2:46 PM]
BigC
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10/15/2006  9:32 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BigC:

I think we seriously need to atleast wait until December before we start doing back flips about us beating a Nets team with no VC, and Kid. And then playing a Philly team with no front court players.

Sixers are worse when Webber plays. they lost to a Euro team with Webber, first real NBA team to lose a Euro team. they beat PHX without Webber.

Dalembert is no prom queen, either.

I noticed how you ignored the fact that the Knicks played against a Nets team with out Vince and Kidd. That's ok selective debate I guess.

Now to the Sixers. Because the Sixers lost to Euro team this is an example of being better without Webber? Do you really think the Sixers are worse with Webber?

How do you think Eddie got 10 rebounds? NO Webber and Dalembert. There are Euro rules and NBA rules. When NBA players go to Euro they have to adjust to their rules. Also did you also know that the Euro teams start playing ball a month and a week before NBA teams. So the Sixers played a team that has been playing against real competition for a month and a week. How much time do you think the Sixer had to get it together? They were ask to play almost as soon as they got off the plane.

So again let's see what this team is really like and assess them properly at the end of November not against a team with half their players and we are playing with all 12 of ours.



[Edited by - BigC on 10-15-2006 9:36 PM]
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TrueBlue
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10/15/2006  9:32 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?

I didn't say any of that. I said Larry is a horrible offensive coach. Find me a team of his that was great offensively and I'll take a look, but his Pistons jumped from being mediocre offensively to being the best offensive team in the league, his Pacers were bad offensively then Larry Bird came in and they got much better, his Sixers teams were awful offensively, the Knicks were one of the worst offensive teams in the league, despite having a roster loaded with firepower. I can pretty much guarantee you the Knicks will experience a huge jump in their offensive ranking, too.

That doesn't mean only one coach can coach this team - but it certainly means Larry Brown couldn't. His offense is too complicated with all the wrong things, he hates the 3p fg and almost every team in the playoffs last year except the Clippers, I believe, made more 3pfg than their opponent on average. He's bad on offense, and since he doesn't believe the zone defense is "right" and all the playoff teams used the zone, including the two finalists, I'd say that aspect of the game has passed him by too.

As for the Pistons doing better under Brown - that's mainly due to whether Dwyane Wade was healthy or not, and before Wade the Nets.



LMFAO and he got the Pacers to the ECF, he got the Sizers to the Finals and he got to the Finals 2 with Det and won 1. So for all his suckiness as an offensive coach can you explain why it worked everywhere except here? The game has passed him by? LOL he's been a part of the last 3 championships and came close with exception to a Tim Duncan heroism of winning 2 of the last 3 champiosnhips.

"it worked"? He was an awful offensive coach. Those were awful offensive teams. This is a statement of fact.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 15-10-2006 9:26 PM]

The bottomline is about winning just in case you've forgotten.

LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
bigbeast
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10/15/2006  9:34 PM
Posted by SeatsBlue:
Posted by crzymdups:

the bottom line is Larry is a traditionally horrible offensive coach. he's a defense first guy and has never coached good offensive teams. that's one of the reasons I thought he would be such a horrible fit here.

So Zeke acquired one dimensional players is that what you are saying? Are you saying there is only 1 coach who could coach this team? Weren't the Pistons better offensively under Flip but failed in terms of overall success vs Larry. If Larry is so bad offesnively why did he win on every level? Is Pop, Carlisle, Skiles, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, Riley bad coaches because they are cut from a defensive cloth?


The difference between Riles and Brown is that Riles is willing and able to adjust to his roster. He totatly changed his style from run and gun to brutish/boarderline thuggish bball when he took over the knick roster. He adaptd to a style of play he hated when he coached the Lake-show and went up againt the BadBoys and even those celtic teams.

The problem with Brown is he can't or is too stubbonr to adjust. In fact. I remember after the Heat slaughter us int the Garden, after the game Riley said of the Knicks "The cubbard aint bare" There is no way the Knicks would have had only 23 wins if Riles was on the bench.


[Edited by - bigbeast on 10-15-2006 9:38 PM]
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10/15/2006  9:37 PM
Posted by SeatsBlue:

The bottomline is about winning just in case you've forgotten.

right. but my comment was that he's a horrible offensive coach. I didn't say he was a horrible coach because he couldn't coach offense. I said he was a horrible offensive coach.
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