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Why I think having Frye on the first team will hurt his development
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gunsnewing
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10/6/2006  1:18 PM
I get the feeling a few people are expecting allstar numbers from Frye this year and I can tell you right now its not happening. Not playing on the same team as marbury, francis, curry so coming off the bench won't effect his #'s too much
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nixluva
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10/6/2006  1:20 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

Quite the contrary, seems to me Frye's greatest asset is going to be a necessary component of the offense on a starting lineup that presumably features Curry, Jeffries, Marbury, and Francis. Teams are going to zone us up, pack the lane and dare us to shoot. Frye is a shooting threat who could help stretch out that D a bit and in the process make life easier for Curry and the backcourt. Lee, not so much. It's too simplistic to just say this guy is a good scorer and won't be needed or used properly in a lineup that already has ample scoring-- you need to consider how those scorers are going to mesh as a unit. Frye's strength complements the glaring weakness existing in the SL otherwise. Maybe Frye scores slightly less in the starting lineup than off the bench, but I'd wager that the overall team performance would be enhanced, which is what really matters.

Exactly!!!

nyk4ever
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10/6/2006  1:21 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

Quite the contrary, seems to me Frye's greatest asset is going to be a necessary component of the offense on a starting lineup that presumably features Curry, Jeffries, Marbury, and Francis. Teams are going to zone us up, pack the lane and dare us to shoot. Frye is a shooting threat who could help stretch out that D a bit and in the process make life easier for Curry and the backcourt. Lee, not so much. It's too simplistic to just say this guy is a good scorer and won't be needed or used properly in a lineup that already has ample scoring-- you need to consider how those scorers are going to mesh as a unit. Frye's strength complements the glaring weakness existing in the SL otherwise. Maybe Frye scores slightly less in the starting lineup than off the bench, but I'd wager that the overall team performance would be enhanced, which is what really matters.

If teams zone up on the Knicks, then you kick it down to Curry, the defense will collapse, Curry kicks back out to Marbury or Francis and you got a 15 foot jumper. Marbury and Francis are both very capable of making that shot 9 times out of 10, not just Frye. Also at the end of the year and in the summer league, Lee showed he was able to knock down that 15 foot jumper on a pretty consistent basis.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-06-2006 1:24 PM]
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nixluva
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10/6/2006  1:23 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

I get the feeling a few people are expecting allstar numbers from Frye this year and I can tell you right now its not happening. Not playing on the same team as marbury, francis, curry so coming off the bench won't effect his #'s too much

You know its not like Frye is never going to play with the guys in the 2nd unit. He'll likely get 34mpg and that's going to mean he's out there with some of the 2nd unit as well. He's already playing at a rate that would see him avg 17/8 in 34mpg. That's if he doesn't improve his production rate at all.
fishmike
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10/6/2006  1:27 PM
doesnt really matter... I would start Lee next to Curry for the better rebounding, but still look to get Frye 30 minutes a game. Thats just x's and o's. Frye is a good player, will get better and isnt a problem here, regardless of his shortcomings.
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nyk4ever
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10/6/2006  1:30 PM
Posted by fishmike:

doesnt really matter... I would start Lee next to Curry for the better rebounding, but still look to get Frye 30 minutes a game. Thats just x's and o's. Frye is a good player, will get better and isnt a problem here, regardless of his shortcomings.

This is correct Fish. I think when people here that Frye doesn't fit in THIS starting-lineup as well as Lee, they think we are taking shots at Frye. Frye is a very nice player, the future of the Knicks but I just think that Lee fits better next to the non-rebounding, fat slob big man we have.
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Ira
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10/6/2006  1:40 PM
Frye will find a way to score. And his rebounding, while not great, isn't that bad. My only concern about Frye is that he learn how to play defense. He's a very bad defensive player.
fishmike
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10/6/2006  1:43 PM
if I could magically poof away Francis, Big Fats and Marbury I would really like this team, regardless of how many games they won and WITH Isiah coaching. Even JJFat I can deal with.. the Franbury backcourt might actually make me tune out... I'll try to watch, but like Clubber Lang said; "Predictions? ...pain"
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islesfan
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10/6/2006  1:44 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by oohah:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by oohah:

Who is most likely to be the Knicks' best front-court player this season?

Frye.

Now let's get serious.

oohah

If Lee actually added a conisistent jumper and got quick enough to play a little 3 also, he has the potential to be a better all-around player than Frye. If even half of the excuses made up for Curry are true an he does get better, he blows away both Lee and Frye.

Hey if Lee gets his handle to Marbury levels, he may become the white Magic Johnson!

Just breaking horns Joe.

Lee or Curry becoming better players than Frye is possible, but not likely.

oohah

I admit Lee is a long shot at being a better player than Frye(BUT, IMO, he is a more all-around player than Frye right now). As for Curry I think Fye and himself are comparable now and Curry has a vast amount more potential than Frye.

After seeing Frye play, I keep comparing his game to what Rasheed Wallace does now-18-ish pts about 7-ish rebounds-but without the defense. Curry has the ability to simply dominate the paint and dominate a game. I don't think Frye can do that.

Hmmm, comparing Frye to Rasheed Wallace but without the defense. That's an interesting comparison.

Other people suggesting Frye as a center, that's interesting too.

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Silverfuel
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10/6/2006  1:46 PM
ie: Center in the uptempo offense
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islesfan
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10/6/2006  1:50 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

ie: Center in the uptempo offense

Oh, you mean the Knicks style of play would make him a center. I see.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Silverfuel
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10/6/2006  1:53 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Silverfuel:

ie: Center in the uptempo offense
Oh, you mean the Knicks style of play would make him a center. I see.
Wait a second, do you really think a player can only play in his set position? Cause I remember Spree playing SF for a lot of years and doing well. Same with Iverson playing SG and now playing PG. Just because Frye is a PF doesnt mean he can't play center in a different offense.
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islesfan
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10/6/2006  2:00 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Silverfuel:

ie: Center in the uptempo offense
Oh, you mean the Knicks style of play would make him a center. I see.
Wait a second, do you really think a player can only play in his set position? Cause I remember Spree playing SF for a lot of years and doing well. Same with Iverson playing SG and now playing PG. Just because Frye is a PF doesnt mean he can't play center in a different offense.

Not at all. I believe that Frye is a PF and C. I have no doubt that he could play either position. He probably wouldn't be a good defender at either position but he could do it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
newyorknewyork
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10/6/2006  2:14 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Frye is a better player than Lee, but Lee brings something that the starting lineup lacks and could sorely use meanwhile Fryes greatest asset of scoring isn't going to be utilized correctly in the starting lineup. This isn't that hard to grasp.

Quite the contrary, seems to me Frye's greatest asset is going to be a necessary component of the offense on a starting lineup that presumably features Curry, Jeffries, Marbury, and Francis. Teams are going to zone us up, pack the lane and dare us to shoot. Frye is a shooting threat who could help stretch out that D a bit and in the process make life easier for Curry and the backcourt. Lee, not so much. It's too simplistic to just say this guy is a good scorer and won't be needed or used properly in a lineup that already has ample scoring-- you need to consider how those scorers are going to mesh as a unit. Frye's strength complements the glaring weakness existing in the SL otherwise. Maybe Frye scores slightly less in the starting lineup than off the bench, but I'd wager that the overall team performance would be enhanced, which is what really matters.

If teams zone up on the Knicks, then you kick it down to Curry, the defense will collapse, Curry kicks back out to Marbury or Francis and you got a 15 foot jumper. Marbury and Francis are both very capable of making that shot 9 times out of 10, not just Frye. Also at the end of the year and in the summer league, Lee showed he was able to knock down that 15 foot jumper on a pretty consistent basis.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-06-2006 1:24 PM]

the problem with that is our guards suck with post entry passing, Curry sucks at passing out of the post, and is T.O prone with his back to the basket. And our guards arent the greatest spot up shooters. So we will be playing in a positon of weakness.

I would like Lee to start alongside of Curry because of his rebs. But he can't shoot, which hurts the spaceing our guards need. Frye can shoot but isn't the stud rebounder we need next to Curry. Which is why it was so important for Q to step up last yr and now this yr. Q can be a strong shooter from long range, and he can rebound the basketball. With him playing well he would be able to compliment Frye or Lee.

Now if Frye can turn into a strong rebounder that would be Ideal. Truthfully I think Lee should play a lot of center this yr behind curry. Keep Frye at forward.
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King1
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10/6/2006  2:17 PM
I am not saying Lee should start, I just think Frye is too talented to be the 4th scoring option. Bring him off the bench and he get more shots and doesnt have to wrestle with Garnett and Oneal and get in foul trouble. There is no doubt Channing will be a great player just with guys aroun him he wont see a lot of shots
Silverfuel
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10/6/2006  2:27 PM
Posted by islesfan:

He probably wouldn't be a good defender at either position but he could do it.
That I agree with. I dont think he is good defender at all so it could be a problem.
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tomverve
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10/6/2006  4:15 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

If teams zone up on the Knicks, then you kick it down to Curry, the defense will collapse, Curry kicks back out to Marbury or Francis and you got a 15 foot jumper. Marbury and Francis are both very capable of making that shot 9 times out of 10, not just Frye. Also at the end of the year and in the summer league, Lee showed he was able to knock down that 15 foot jumper on a pretty consistent basis.

15 footers aren't going to stretch a defense-- too easy to rotate back out. It'd have to be more like 17-19 footers. Marbury is competent at that range, but nothing special... you can't leave him wide open and dare him to shoot, but I don't think he's such a threat with the J that you'll have to make strong adjustments to the collapsing/zone type D. Francis, forget about it. I hope he proves me wrong but I have no faith in that clothesline jumper of his. Likewise Lee, he can nail it if you give him too much daylight but he's not going to buckle defenses with that J. Frye's jumper is good enough to merit special attention though.
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nixluva
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10/6/2006  4:37 PM
I think most of these ideas to basically protect Frye are premature. The guy was a rookie last year and what we saw is just the beginning of what he's capable of. You don't try to protect him by pushing him to the bench, when he shows starter talent. You get him out there and let him takes some punches and GIVE some punches. He has to be allowed to adjust to the competition level. Frye isn't defenseless against his competitiors. Even if he's on the floor with 3 other scorers, he'll still get a good share of looks because he's gonna be very involved in the plays we run, so the defense will likely leave him open rather than let Steph or Francis get an easy layup.

As far as us needed a rebounder to go along with Curry, I think someone else had it right when they mentioned that our rebounding will come from multiple sources. It's not gonna be one monster rebounder. That doesn't mean we won't be a good rebounding team, tho. Do you realize that the top defensive rebounding team was the Clippers with 33 per game and we were at 28 per game. If we improve by 2-3 def. boards a game we'd be one of the better rebounding teams in the league. We were 3rd in the league in Offensive rebs. with 12.6.
nyk4ever
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10/6/2006  4:42 PM
Posted by nixluva:


As far as us needed a rebounder to go along with Curry, I think someone else had it right when they mentioned that our rebounding will come from multiple sources. It's not gonna be one monster rebounder. That doesn't mean we won't be a good rebounding team, tho. Do you realize that the top defensive rebounding team was the Clippers with 33 per game and we were at 28 per game. If we improve by 2-3 def. boards a game we'd be one of the better rebounding teams in the league. We were 3rd in the league in Offensive rebs. with 12.6.

I agree with you about the rebounding coming from multiple sources but I think that offensive RPG stat is really misleading... we were 22nd in the league last year in team FG% so we were missing more shots, which means there was alot of opportunities for offensive rebounds.
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tomverve
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10/6/2006  4:49 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I agree with you about the rebounding coming from multiple sources but I think that offensive RPG stat is really misleading... we were 22nd in the league last year in team FG% so we were missing more shots, which means there was alot of opportunities for offensive rebounds.

There is a measure called "rebound rate" that eliminates that confound, basically by looking at what % of rebound opportunities a player/team manages to actually rebound. The Knicks were fourth in the league in offensive rebound rate last season, so you can't chalk up the good numbers to more opportunities. The Knicks were a great offensive rebounding team last season.
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