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Bippity10
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9/29/2006  4:40 PM
My offense is a mixture of Pitino's Kentucky Flex and Calhoun's 1-4 offense. When certain players switch into the game I go quicker and give my verions of Nolan Richardson's forty minutes of hell. I've run this style for 9 years now and will probably do it until I stop coaching. Why? Because this is my style. Now each year I have different players and have to adjust but overall the players have to adjust to me.

Now if I was coaching the Knicks and coaching for this year I would focus more on an iso offense. I would pattern it more towards the offense we had with Allan and Spree in our run to the finals. I'd run and gun off my defense and then isolate in the half-court. This is where Marbs and Francis are dominant. Noone can guard them isolated. I'm not confident in their ability to run any type of motion offense. I think this may work better when Jamal is in the game but nate and marbs and Stevie don't appear at first glance to be guys that can thrive in that type of offense. In the long-run this iso offense affects the growth of Eddie and Channing because ultimately the offens will be built around them. So to me, what is the purpose of putting the ball in the hands of Steph and Stevie? So they don't cry? To make them happy? To win a few more games this year?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-29-2006 4:43 PM]
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Bippity10
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9/29/2006  4:56 PM
Have you guys ever been in a motion offense with guards that like to dribble the ball instead of pass it. Most frustrating thing ever. I'm a rythm shooter. I love coming off the screen and having the ball in the air before I even come open. I can't shoot off the standstill. I've played with great motion teams, and it seems like every time you come off a screen you better have your hands up or the ball will smack you in the face. It's fantastic.

Then I've also played motiion offfenses with PG's that like to dominate the ball. You run around for nine hours exhausted never getting the ball with an advantage over the defender. Never get the ball in motion. Never get it when the defender is fighting through a screen and at a disadvantage. You only get it when your feet are set, your momenutm is stopped and the defender is back in his stance and balanced. It drives you crazy. It makes you wonder why you are running around if you are going to get the ball at a standstill anyway. Why don't I just stand here and you pass me the ball instead of me running around tiring myself out to get it in the same spot. I think Stevie and Marbs are better suited for a more methodical offense with less movement and more isolation. Just my opinion as to how we can play to their strengths(if this is what we are doing). Not bashing anyone's talents.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-29-2006 4:57 PM]
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BasketballJones
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9/29/2006  5:07 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

It makes you wonder why you are running around if you are going to get the ball at a standstill anyway. Why don't I just stand here and you pass me the ball instead of me running around tiring myself out to get it in the same spot.

Because the coach told you to. Listen to your coach Bip.


[Edited by - basketballjones on 09-29-2006 17:08]
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nixluva
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9/29/2006  5:16 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Nixluva: don't think I didn't notice that you cleanly edited "As usual, you really haven't been paying attention to what i've been saying in this forum" out of your last post. Smooth. It does make your post sound less antagonistic and makes me sound like I over-reacted to your post. In this chess game that was a brilliant move on your part. Dishonest and not a true representation of the conversation, but brilliant.

Go ahead and take "I think your lack of respect for what the players and the coach can do, is clouding your judgement" out of your post as well just to seal the deal.

I'm allowed to censor myself and I actually thought I could make the change before anyone got a chance to read it. It wasn't aimed at making you seem like you were being irrational. Just me trying to tone down my own thoughts. In retrospect I probably could have done without that last comment too. See I'm not perfect and like many people I'm capable of being too harsh. I think you're taking that a bit too personal.

Just to clarify things, you often post a response and it may seem that i'm ignoring your posts but I haven't seen what you've posted cuz I hop around the internet so much. Its not that i'm avoiding your questions. I honestly haven't seen them until much later.

Now as for the many questions you propose and the scenarios you suggested in the various posts you've made in this thread, I really can't effectively answer you, due to the way you pose the questions. You presented scenarios that don't make sense for the roster we have. Steph is capable of running Iso, but that's not what he's done his entire career. Since he's been here we haven't really run an Iso heavy offense. When we still had KT, we ran more pick and Pop than Iso. The Iso's tended to happen more on broken plays. Jamal was more guilty of doing that than Steph. Steph is more of a penetrator off the dribble, a drive and kick player. We didn't have to actually clear out all the time for him to do that. In other words it wasn't a specific part of the offense to just clearout and let Steph take his man one on one.

When you surround Steph with players who can catch and finish or hit the jumper, he's going to be very effective as he was when we had the KVH, KT & Doleac team. He had double digit assist games. Also he had a field day with the Pick and pop. It seems to me that Isiah is going to be able to run that kind of offense while at the same time also having sets that take advantage of Curry in the post. Only this time he'll create more space using the Triangle and that may help Curry to have the room to make his move and it will call for him to be more patience as he watches the movement and reaction of the defense. Sure he's got a lot to learn, but then this is what its all about for this team. Our bigs are all about the same age and they have time to grow and learn.

BlueSeats also made it sound like Steph and Francis won't be able to run any kind of structured offense. I think that all really depends on what type of offense we're talking about. If you're expecting them to stand at the top and quaterback like Billups or Kidd, then they won't be as good. However Pick and Roll/Pop, Drive and Kick or short quick passes on back cuts and slashes to the basket are things they can do.


[Edited by - NIXLUVA on 09-29-2006 5:35 PM]
BasketballJones
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9/29/2006  5:20 PM
You can't slip anything past Bip. I wonder if he noticed a subtle change I made to one of my posts in this thread?
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BlueSeats
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9/29/2006  6:46 PM
bip is the larry brown of message boards. a photographic memory of every mistake.
BlueSeats
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9/29/2006  7:05 PM
Posted by nixluva:
BlueSeats also made it sound like Steph and Francis won't be able to run any kind of structured offense.


That's not what I said.
I think that all really depends on what type of offense we're talking about. If you're expecting them to stand at the top and quaterback like Billups or Kidd, then they won't be as good. However Pick and Roll/Pop, Drive and Kick or short quick passes on back cuts and slashes to the basket are things they can do.

Yes but those are very much the ball-dominating dependent maneuvers of the type they ARE accustomed to and to which I insinuated they'd defer to. Which may be very different from the high-post, triangle and/or motion offense that you were speaking about.

It's their ability to learn and embody things outside their comfort zone that I question.
gunsnewing
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9/29/2006  7:43 PM
I get the feeling here that some people rather ignore the shortcomings of team like how the hell will Marbury and Francis co-exist for starters. But hey I guess I'm a pessimist
nyk4ever
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9/29/2006  7:50 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

I get the feeling here that some people rather ignore the shortcomings of team like how the hell will Marbury and Francis co-exist for starters. But hey I guess I'm a pessimist

Your not a pessimist, your a hater for not thinking this team will win the championship this year. What the hell is wrong with you? Isiah is a great GM and he's Coach and we've got him doing both jobs, what could be better than that? Whats not to like about having 2 overweight nonmotivated centers? What's not to like about having a backcourt that will be on the losing end of severe height mismatches on a nightly basis? What's not to like about those same to 2 backcourt mates having the worst labels in all of in sports, loser, and chemistry-killer. No that doesn't make you a pessismist, that makes you a hater.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
nixluva
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9/29/2006  9:16 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:

I get the feeling here that some people rather ignore the shortcomings of team like how the hell will Marbury and Francis co-exist for starters. But hey I guess I'm a pessimist

Your not a pessimist, your a hater for not thinking this team will win the championship this year. What the hell is wrong with you? Isiah is a great GM and he's Coach and we've got him doing both jobs, what could be better than that? Whats not to like about having 2 overweight nonmotivated centers? What's not to like about having a backcourt that will be on the losing end of severe height mismatches on a nightly basis? What's not to like about those same to 2 backcourt mates having the worst labels in all of in sports, loser, and chemistry-killer. No that doesn't make you a pessismist, that makes you a hater.

Those are valid concerns, but then you forget the mention that we have Frye, Jared and Lee who are good kids and smart players. They play hard and they're good TEAM players. Jamel and Nate are also on this team and I like that Jamal has shown the right attitude and Nate plays hard every game on both ends.

Whatever Steph and Francis may be called they are also former All Stars and still capable of playing on a high level. If they're in the right state of mind this year they will help this team IMMENSELY. Curry may not be the most motivated or disciplined player, but he does have talent and he's not as far away from being a good Center in this league as it might seem. I think he'll be able to come in ready and have his best year so far.
nyk4ever
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9/29/2006  9:20 PM
Posted by nixluva:



Those are valid concerns, but then you forget the mention that we have Frye, Jared and Lee who are good kids and smart players. They play hard and they're good TEAM players. Jamel and Nate are also on this team and I like that Jamal has shown the right attitude and Nate plays hard every game on both ends.

Whatever Steph and Francis may be called they are also former All Stars and still capable of playing on a high level. If they're in the right state of mind this year they will help this team IMMENSELY. Curry may not be the most motivated or disciplined player, but he does have talent and he's not as far away from being a good Center in this league as it might seem. I think he'll be able to come in ready and have his best year so far.

Well Nix, thats what makes you an optimist.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
CrushAlot
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9/29/2006  11:00 PM
Paul Miller is not that good. If he makes the team it will not be because he has a role in Isiah's offense. He also is not a hidden jem like Butler coming out of high school. Miller will be a true 12th man. If his career goes really well he might make it as a back up center. This is a long thread speculating about a guy who has marginal talent and is supposed to be in the Knick camp. Please hold all posts about his great outside shooting and comparisons to Micheal Doleac.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
BasketballJones
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9/29/2006  11:01 PM
At least Isiah is doing what he can to establish some ethnic balance on the team.
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gunsnewing
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9/30/2006  4:53 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:

I get the feeling here that some people rather ignore the shortcomings of team like how the hell will Marbury and Francis co-exist for starters. But hey I guess I'm a pessimist

Your not a pessimist, your a hater for not thinking this team will win the championship this year. What the hell is wrong with you? Isiah is a great GM and he's Coach and we've got him doing both jobs, what could be better than that? Whats not to like about having 2 overweight nonmotivated centers? What's not to like about having a backcourt that will be on the losing end of severe height mismatches on a nightly basis? What's not to like about those same to 2 backcourt mates having the worst labels in all of in sports, loser, and chemistry-killer. No that doesn't make you a pessismist, that makes you a hater.

Those are valid concerns, but then you forget the mention that we have Frye, Jared and Lee who are good kids and smart players. They play hard and they're good TEAM players. Jamel and Nate are also on this team and I like that Jamal has shown the right attitude and Nate plays hard every game on both ends.

Whatever Steph and Francis may be called they are also former All Stars and still capable of playing on a high level. If they're in the right state of mind this year they will help this team IMMENSELY. Curry may not be the most motivated or disciplined player, but he does have talent and he's not as far away from being a good Center in this league as it might seem. I think he'll be able to come in ready and have his best year so far.


all Curry needs is another 6yrs
Bippity10
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9/30/2006  10:31 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:

I get the feeling here that some people rather ignore the shortcomings of team like how the hell will Marbury and Francis co-exist for starters. But hey I guess I'm a pessimist

Your not a pessimist, your a hater for not thinking this team will win the championship this year. What the hell is wrong with you? Isiah is a great GM and he's Coach and we've got him doing both jobs, what could be better than that? Whats not to like about having 2 overweight nonmotivated centers? What's not to like about having a backcourt that will be on the losing end of severe height mismatches on a nightly basis? What's not to like about those same to 2 backcourt mates having the worst labels in all of in sports, loser, and chemistry-killer. No that doesn't make you a pessismist, that makes you a hater.


Whatever Steph and Francis may be called they are also former All Stars and still capable of playing on a high level. If they're in the right state of mind this year they will help this team IMMENSELY. Curry may not be the most motivated or disciplined player, but he does have talent and he's not as far away from being a good Center in this league as it might seem. I think he'll be able to come in ready and have his best year so far.

Exactly my point Nixluva. This is why 90% of the board doesn't share your optimism and guarantee that we are on our way to making a title contender in a few years. This paragraph is why 90% of the board is taking a wait and see approach. We are not pessimistic. We are wondering. We don't know what frame of mind Stevie or Steph are going to be in. We have to wait and see "if they are in the right state of mind" before we know how the team is going to be. We are resting our hopes on a center "who may not be the most motivated or disciplined player". When we look at championship teams we see teams that are "in the right state of mind" and "are motivated and disciplined" and we are asking when will Isiah target these types of guys instead of selling us a bill of goods on guys that we don't know if they are going to come into games ready to play. We don't know if something a coach or a teammate does is going to set Steph or Stevie off and have them not play hard or bitch and moan so much that it drags the team down. We don't know if Eddie is going to go after the big rebound with 2 minutes left in an important game because it's not as important to him. Hell we don't even know if he's going to be in shape. We are constantly wondering. None of us know what to expect. So most of us fans refuse to assume everything will be great and instead go on the past history of these players (that you also admit in your last paragraph) and wait and see and pray that at least for one year they are "right minded, motivated and disciplined".

I don't want that anymore. I want players that I know that from day one they will be "right minded, motivated and disciplined". Did I ever have to wonder if patrick, Charles, Mase, Starks, harper, Ward were going to come into camp in shape??? Is it any coincidence that that team won, while this one bitches about coaches and is coming off a 23 win season? Is this really coincidence or is there something to having "disciplined, motivated, right minded players"? I don't want to have to wait to see if they will come to camp in shape. Our three most important guys leave us wondering. That's not how you build a title. If you have to take a step back and maybe lose a few games all while getting these "wrong minded, unmotivated, undisciplined" stars away from our young guys before they infect them like they have infected our organization and hall of fame coaches. You can win with anyone of these guys. But with the three of them being the main cogs and leaders of your team it is a recipe for a 23 win season despite the level of talent. It's time to bring dignity, discipline and motivation back to the entire organization. This is embarrassing.

How many more buyouts Mr. Isiah? How many more????

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-30-2006 10:32 AM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-30-2006 10:39 AM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-30-2006 10:41 AM]
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Bippity10
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9/30/2006  10:38 AM
As for the type of offense we run. I think there is no way in hell we can run a motion offense with this crew. Not sure how we can look at this team and think that it will be successful. We will have movement and cutters away from the ball but it will not be a "motion offense" or anywhere close. I do beleive that Isiah will play to the strengths of Stevie and Marbs because this is the only way he can save his job. They will dominate the ball and we will have to ride their penetration skills to an 8th seed. We will see pick and pop and iso. If we run a triangle it will be when we are going small and Curry and Stevie will not be on the floor. Just my guess. Stevie and Marbs are very talented one on one players but you cannot run a motion offense with isolation players. Any two guards or Small forwards on this site will agree with me 100%. It does not work.
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PresIke
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10/1/2006  1:06 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by nixluva:

Again some of you guys just aren't paying ATTENTION! Part of the offense Isiah will use features a double high post and in that offense you need bigs who can set a pick and hit a jumper. We aren't going to only feature low post offense. So in the scheme of how we'll be playing this year, which will make the BEST use of our talented guards, we need bigs who can shoot with range. I honestly don't think you guys respect isiah's basketball knowledge or that he actually has a plan for how he intends to play this year. You seem to assume that Isiah is some jackass that knows nothing and you couldn't be more wrong.

Its easier to defend a so, so low post player than it is a good pick and pop big. There's a natural advantage to that play due to the motion which causes teams to have to respond to the attacking guard. This leaves the jump shooting big open a lot of times and if not then the guard has a great scoring opportunity. Without great deep shooters, we aren't going to be as effective in a pure post up offense like LB was running. Teams won't respect our shooters and will pack it in on our bigs. WIth great spacing, a motion offense and heavy use of picks teams won't easily be able to just pack it in.

Double high post blah blah blah--our PGs arent smart enough to run a complicated offense. 30 wins.


LOL...BRIGGS you cracked me up here.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
VDesai
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10/2/2006  8:51 AM
I don't know how he's gonna do it, but Isiah has said repeatedly that he wants to make the Knicks a "Suns East" type of team. For that he needs shooters, big and small. Miller has some ability...he needs a lot of work, but if he shoots reasonably well in the camp and preseason he'll definitely stick on some team.
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