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Taylor, Knicks Negotiating Buyout
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oohah
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9/24/2006  4:24 PM
no. The quote makes it pretty clear that LB brought up the possibility of the trade with Isiah and Isiah made the final decision to make the trade.

It seems that Isiah is stupid for not letting LB hand-pick his players, but he is also stupid for letting LB hand-pick his own players.

oohah

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wsdm
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9/24/2006  4:34 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by wsdm:

Joe, that's just garbage media speculation. In contrast, Brown's has been directly quoted saying he asked Isiah to get Francis. (I'm not sure if he has been quoted about Rose too, though.)

Wsdm, have you ever heard of plausible deniability? This is the exact opposite.

For example.

I'm in a union and we are in the middle of elections. One of the guys says, "Well, the president of the union told me to run."
What he doesn't say is that he called the president of the union and actually asked "President X, I am thinking of running for the union rep job, but I am not sure.". To which president X says "Sure you should run, everyone who wants to try to be a union rep whould run.".

Two totally different scenarios in the context of what is said. The guys isn't lying. But he also isn't telling the truth.

If Isiah said to Larry "Look, this is the best I can do now, but these guys will not be here next year becauzse I am planning a big move. But I need you to endorse this trade, because Dolan is looking at me sideways because of all this money I added. I promise they won't be here next year and I will use them to get you players you want. Just please endorse this trade". Larry says, "Ok...I'll endorse it to the media, but you gotta promise me that they won't be here."

Technically they can say Larry endorsed it and it isn't a lie. It also isn't the whole truth.

And the last thing I am gonna believe is ANYTHING coming out of Dolan's or Isiah's mouth in an interview, given by, edited by, and aired by a company that Dolan owns and everyone associated with the interview works for him.
No, it wasn't any of that stuff. Larry said directly to the media that as soon as Francis was available, he went running to Isiah to ask him to get Francis.

Can you please tell me how this disproves or even offers any iota of an argument to the post you quoted? That is esactly the type of thing I was talking about?
I editted the reply. The quote makes it pretty clear Larry wanted the trade first and Isiah followed. It's more like you need to switch Isiah's and Larry's names in each sentence above: Isiah endorsed the trade because he had to in order for Dolan to approve it.

no. The quote makes it pretty clear that LB brought up the possibility of the trade with Isiah and Isiah made the final decision to make the trade.
Basically what I said: LB initiated the idea, Isiah then agreed with it, and technically Dolan made the final decision.
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BlueSeats
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9/24/2006  5:15 PM
When any of the trade rumors of the time are evidenced we see that any trade that involved francis also included a pass first and or defensive oriented PG, or a defensive oriented frontcourt player. We've also seen it reported that Isiah believed Francis could be trade bait for someone like KG or JO.

so I believe Brown saw francis as a rental and a means to reshape the roster, but in no way did he want him to come alone, and to remain here on a log term basis. And Joe also evidenced that isiah pursued Rose for years.

Just look at any photos of Brown at the francis press conference and you'll see a very despondent soldier - I believe because Francis came alone and he got stuck with the part of the deal he wanted the least
bigbeast
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9/24/2006  5:59 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by wsdm:

Joe, that's just garbage media speculation. In contrast, Brown's has been directly quoted saying he asked Isiah to get Francis. (I'm not sure if he has been quoted about Rose too, though.)

Wsdm, have you ever heard of plausible deniability? This is the exact opposite.

For example.

I'm in a union and we are in the middle of elections. One of the guys says, "Well, the president of the union told me to run."
What he doesn't say is that he called the president of the union and actually asked "President X, I am thinking of running for the union rep job, but I am not sure.". To which president X says "Sure you should run, everyone who wants to try to be a union rep whould run.".

Two totally different scenarios in the context of what is said. The guys isn't lying. But he also isn't telling the truth.

If Isiah said to Larry "Look, this is the best I can do now, but these guys will not be here next year becauzse I am planning a big move. But I need you to endorse this trade, because Dolan is looking at me sideways because of all this money I added. I promise they won't be here next year and I will use them to get you players you want. Just please endorse this trade". Larry says, "Ok...I'll endorse it to the media, but you gotta promise me that they won't be here."

Technically they can say Larry endorsed it and it isn't a lie. It also isn't the whole truth.

And the last thing I am gonna believe is ANYTHING coming out of Dolan's or Isiah's mouth in an interview, given by, edited by, and aired by a company that Dolan owns and everyone associated with the interview works for him.
No, it wasn't any of that stuff. Larry said directly to the media that as soon as Francis was available, he went running to Isiah to ask him to get Francis.

Can you please tell me how this disproves or even offers any iota of an argument to the post you quoted? That is exactly the type of thing I was talking about?

[Edited by - joec32033 on 09-24-2006 3:42 PM]

I have already proven Brown wanted Jalen and Francis with direct quotes. I started about three thread about this back in May. I'm not about to dig them up right now.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
bigbeast
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9/24/2006  6:00 PM
Posted by oohah:
no. The quote makes it pretty clear that LB brought up the possibility of the trade with Isiah and Isiah made the final decision to make the trade.

It seems that Isiah is stupid for not letting LB hand-pick his players, but he is also stupid for letting LB hand-pick his own players.

oohah

Exactly!
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
rvhoss
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9/24/2006  6:08 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

Wasn't Mo Taylor the guy who never passed the ball to anyone? Why getting rid of him is a bad idea? Trading for him by getting rid of Moochie and Vin-bin-drinking baker was also a good move. Enough of this BrownAid™ crap.

exactly, there has been no flip flop
Posted by Panos:

rvhoss, ohhah, you guys change your opinion faster than John Kerry.
"Manning up" implies you have to stick by your opinion!

"manning up" does not mean until death do we part.

The MoT trade was not the "end of the world"...the only way to show some sort of sanity in the "board of doom" was to man up.

We dumped useless players and contracts for an expiring deal.

it's still valuable either for a trade or to bring the salary cap into focus. he was on the team for 1.5 years.

Also, at the time we had no low post presence...MoT is widely regarded as an above average to great low post player...his only knock was his practice habits.

He took charges last year and did everything LB asked.

To pull the "i told you so card" is kind of strange considering since the infamous "man up" thread, we've drafted Frye and DLee and brought in Curry.

So, no, contrary to "i told you so" opinion, manning up does not mean "stick to your opionion two years later"

But hey, you are entitled to post an attack if that's all you got. :)



[Edited by - rvhoss on 09-24-2006 6:13 PM]
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wsdm
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9/24/2006  6:11 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

exactly, I'm "manning up" does not mean until death do we part.

At the time, MoT trade was not the "end of the world"...the only way to show some sort of sanity in the "board of doom" was to man up.

We dumpled useless players and contracts for an expiring deal.

it's still valuable either for a trade or to bring the salary cap into focus.

Also, at the time we had no low post presence...MoT is widely regarded as an above average to great low post player...his only knock was his practice habits.

He took charges last year and did everything LB asked.

To pull the "i told you so card" is kind of strange considering since the infamous "man up" thread, we've drafted Frye and DLee and brought in Curry.

So, no, contrary to "i told you so" opinion, manning up does not mean "stick to your opionion two years later"

But hey, you are entitled to post an attack if that's all you got. :)
Posted by buddapaw:

Wasn't Mo Taylor the guy who never passed the ball to anyone? Why getting rid of him is a bad idea? Trading for him by getting rid of Moochie and Vin-bin-drinking baker was also a good move. Enough of this BrownAid™ crap.
That's fine but there's just no understandable reason to giving Houston a draft pick (#31 this year) in that deal.
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rvhoss
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9/24/2006  6:20 PM
we had two first round picks this year, so giving up #31 even using hindsight 20/20 meant nothing.

I am not so sure why everyone is trying to figure out who's fault/credit it was for francis. BS has it right when he said...
Posted by BlueSeats:

so I believe Brown saw francis as a rental

But I'm not going to stop there...why is it so unbelievable that BOTH brown and zeke wanted francis?

He serves a ton couple of uses for a few directions the team can go in.

1) battles marbury for starting at point for nyc...gives us the option to let one or the other go. (for all the marbury haters, this should be applauded)

2) good in trade fodder for a KG or Jermaine Oneil type trade...has talent when it won't look like the trading partner got flogged.

3) could fill the role being marketed as..a three guard motion lineup with crawford.

So, it didn't really matter who wanted him and who didn't want him. The key is that the book is still out on what we got for Trevor Ariza and Penny's expiring contract.

I like that poker mentality of Zeke, looking to move chips around until we get the chips we want.

MoT may still turn out to be something, and it was my opinion that we can get more from 1 roster spot expiring contract, then what we gave up. it also opened up roster spots for our 3 draft picks the following year.

there is room in basketball for long term thinking and we are entering year 3 with two expiring contracts and a plethora of options and youth.

Next year, we'll be doing this all over again with Malik Rose.


if we trade him for a better useful player or he expires off the cap, it's a win win and the trade works out.

Does anybody even know who was picked up at #31?

[Edited by - rvhoss on 09-24-2006 6:23 PM]
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wsdm
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9/24/2006  6:22 PM
Draft picks are never useless. I'd much rather have pick #31 than Taylor on this roster right now. It's also not hindsight when you disagreed with including the pick from the beginning. I wouldn't have even done the trade without the pick at the time let alone with it. They really needed to give us a 1st rd pick to make it a fair trade since we were taking back so much salary for an at-best mediocre player.
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rvhoss
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9/24/2006  6:26 PM
I wasn't into the trade for the picks, I was into the trade for MoT...I felt he had something to offer and we all noticed that he offered much more than what we gave up for him and he has yet to show what he can offer going forward in comparison to the 31st pick.

Btw, who got taken with #31?

I'm looking forward with this team and moving forward, anytime you can make one player that contributes out of 3 players that don't, that's a good trade to me.

Wasn't that #31 pick, #31 in the weakest draft in recent memory?

I like what you have to say wsdm, but at this point, MoT is more valuable STILL than everything we gave up that day.

So, I guess I'm still manning up on the trade.

What I am also agreeing to is buying the man out...for 1/2 his salary.
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oohah
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9/24/2006  6:31 PM
Posted by rvhoss:
Posted by buddapaw:

Wasn't Mo Taylor the guy who never passed the ball to anyone? Why getting rid of him is a bad idea? Trading for him by getting rid of Moochie and Vin-bin-drinking baker was also a good move. Enough of this BrownAid™ crap.

exactly, there has been no flip flop
Posted by Panos:

rvhoss, ohhah, you guys change your opinion faster than John Kerry.
"Manning up" implies you have to stick by your opinion!

"manning up" does not mean until death do we part.

The MoT trade was not the "end of the world"...the only way to show some sort of sanity in the "board of doom" was to man up.

We dumped useless players and contracts for an expiring deal.

it's still valuable either for a trade or to bring the salary cap into focus. he was on the team for 1.5 years.

Also, at the time we had no low post presence...MoT is widely regarded as an above average to great low post player...his only knock was his practice habits.

He took charges last year and did everything LB asked.

To pull the "i told you so card" is kind of strange considering since the infamous "man up" thread, we've drafted Frye and DLee and brought in Curry.

So, no, contrary to "i told you so" opinion, manning up does not mean "stick to your opionion two years later"

But hey, you are entitled to post an attack if that's all you got. :)



[Edited by - rvhoss on 09-24-2006 6:13 PM]


Yeah, a misguided attack is definitely all Panos has got.

I sure wish he would show up and show me how I have changed my opinion about Taylor, but since I am 100% sure he cannot find any evidence that suggests that, let alone prove it, I don't expect to see him return to this thread.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
EnySpree
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9/24/2006  6:46 PM
I don't understand why anyone is bringing brown up.

When isiah made the deal for Taylor he talked about how he was trying to upgrade the talent level of the team with an eye for the future since taylors contract was short. Nuff said on that.

Looking forward the knicks need an extra roster spot for isiah to sign another diamond in the rough type player. I think that is a given.

Bottom line. Who cares about Taylor? Taylor doesn't fit. Knicks still have rose as the old timer to plug in if an injury comes up.

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rvhoss
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9/24/2006  6:47 PM
nuff said.
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BasketballJones
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9/24/2006  6:55 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

I don't understand why anyone is bringing brown up.

When isiah made the deal for Taylor he talked about how he was trying to upgrade the talent level of the team with an eye for the future since taylors contract was short. Nuff said on that.

Looking forward the knicks need an extra roster spot for isiah to sign another diamond in the rough type player. I think that is a given.

Bottom line. Who cares about Taylor? Taylor doesn't fit. Knicks still have rose as the old timer to plug in if an injury comes up.

I thought we'd kicked the Larry Brown habit but apparently not.
C'mon guys - we don't need to blame LB, we've still got Marbury for that.
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wsdm
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9/24/2006  7:02 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

I wasn't into the trade for the picks, I was into the trade for MoT...I felt he had something to offer and we all noticed that he offered much more than what we gave up for him and he has yet to show what he can offer going forward in comparison to the 31st pick.

Btw, who got taken with #31?

I'm looking forward with this team and moving forward, anytime you can make one player that contributes out of 3 players that don't, that's a good trade to me.

Wasn't that #31 pick, #31 in the weakest draft in recent memory?

I like what you have to say wsdm, but at this point, MoT is more valuable STILL than everything we gave up that day.

So, I guess I'm still manning up on the trade.

What I am also agreeing to is buying the man out...for 1/2 his salary.

I like most of what you say too. I didn't mean for this to be too argumentative. I just have a hard time picturing Houston turning down the trade if Isiah had kept the pick. They'd still be saving a lot of money just to get rid of a healthy player they had no room for and put on the IR.

[Edited by - wsdm on 09-24-2006 7:03 PM]
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rvhoss
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9/24/2006  7:07 PM
yeah, I hear ya...the book is still out, and hey, we ain't arguing.

today has been one of the more enjoyable visits to UK.
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Panos
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9/24/2006  7:11 PM
Posted by rvhoss:
Posted by buddapaw:

Wasn't Mo Taylor the guy who never passed the ball to anyone? Why getting rid of him is a bad idea? Trading for him by getting rid of Moochie and Vin-bin-drinking baker was also a good move. Enough of this BrownAid™ crap.

exactly, there has been no flip flop
Posted by Panos:

rvhoss, ohhah, you guys change your opinion faster than John Kerry.
"Manning up" implies you have to stick by your opinion!

"manning up" does not mean until death do we part.

The MoT trade was not the "end of the world"...the only way to show some sort of sanity in the "board of doom" was to man up.

We dumped useless players and contracts for an expiring deal.

it's still valuable either for a trade or to bring the salary cap into focus. he was on the team for 1.5 years.

Also, at the time we had no low post presence...MoT is widely regarded as an above average to great low post player...his only knock was his practice habits.

He took charges last year and did everything LB asked.

To pull the "i told you so card" is kind of strange considering since the infamous "man up" thread, we've drafted Frye and DLee and brought in Curry.

So, no, contrary to "i told you so" opinion, manning up does not mean "stick to your opionion two years later"

But hey, you are entitled to post an attack if that's all you got. :)



[Edited by - rvhoss on 09-24-2006 6:13 PM]



1. Moochie's and Baker's contracts were shorter than MoT's. It was Houston who pulled the salary dump. Check your facts!

2. Had no low post presence? What did MoT bring that we didn't already have in KT and Sweetney?
Your selective amnesia is convenient.

It was a stupid trade from the start. Are you at least willing to admit that much?
oohah
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9/24/2006  7:13 PM
I'd rather see M Rose bought out than Taylor. If anyone gets hurt, etc. Taylor can step in and be servicable.

These days, M Rose gets picked last at the Y.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
rvhoss
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9/24/2006  7:13 PM
i said something about a salary dump?
KT plays low post basketball?

What's going on here...did I miss something?
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wsdm
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9/24/2006  7:24 PM
Posted by oohah:

I'd rather see M Rose bought out than Taylor. If anyone gets hurt, etc. Taylor can step in and be servicable.

These days, M Rose gets picked last at the Y.

oohah
Yeah, I agree 100% with that.
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