Joe, isn't it team policy too that the coach should coach to win games not to make an example or whatever LB was doing? To use an extreme example, maybe he decides that everyone on the team should play wearing the left shoe on their right foot and vice-versa. That way nobody can drive. They have to shoot spot-up, but they aren't good at that!! Now they have been "exposed".

To me, that is what he did all-season, and he knew he was doing it, virtually tanking the season.

That's gotta violate something.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by joec32033:

Ok...I'll stick to team policy. The only team policy he broke was talking to the press the way he did. If they are going to focus on that they may have a case (how great I don't know-I doubt the NBA would let a team gag every member when they fine people for missing press conferences).

On the flipside-There is no standard NBA wide code of conduct when talking to the press(I don't think anyway), so LB would have had to agree to this in his contract if the team is to be able to hold him to a policy like they sre saying he broke. My opinion is that LB would NEVER have signed off on anything where someone else can silence him in the press. He did his thing in the press for 30 years and I see no way he would agree to all of a sudden stop. At the time of his hiring, The Knicks needed LB alot more than LB needed the Knicks. I seriously doubt the Knicks where in ANY position to demand ANYTHING from LB.

I know we tend to think that Dolan is stupid, but actually, he has lawyers who aren't stupid. I'm sure that they put something in the language of the contract that protected the organization in some way. That is what the bulk of most contracts are anyway. A series of protections for the employer. You see the employer is the one taking the risk. It's their money on the line and for the most part since its guaranteed, they have to put certain language in there that covers them and their corporate interests against malicious acts or insubordinate acts.

I'm sure that even if the exact language of the team policy wasn't in there that there's a clause that states LB would abide by all team policy's as written in some handbook or whatever. Heck even for my jobs we had Code of Conduct type agreements to sign. Certainly for a contract worth $50 mil there had to be some protection. Especially since they knew LB's history and that he was eventually gonna act up. I don't think they expected it to happen so soon, but they knew that it would happen one day.

I also believe that Dolan spoke with his representatives who advised him on how to proceed once they started having problems with LB. Things like this are very calculated when you get into big corporate deals like this. MSG is a huge entity and they have to answer to others for just about everything they do. Public embarrassment is not one of the things they'd tend to ignore or fail to prepare for.

Dolan is not the only one who has lawyers. LB has an amazing agent in Joe Glass(There is no way an argument can be made this guys is not one of the shrewdest out there).

The difference is in the fact that LB knows to let his agent handle alot of the dirty work and he follows the advice of Joe Glass. Dolan is the type of guy that says "I want to get out of LB's contract guys, you work for me, you get this done." If Dolan wants his lawyers to do something, he makes them find a way, IMO, no matter if they can actually do it or not. Remember this is the same who sued selltheknicks.com because he implied his name was intellectual property!

Posted by nixluva:

Blueseats I still think that with all that you present, it still doesn't explain WHY LB didn't follow the rules. Back when Nellie did his thing that team didn't have the same press policy and even more important that was a GOOD team already. To try and compare this team with so many NEW faces and YOUNG faces isn't fair at all. We didn't have the same expectations last year that Nellie's team did. All we expected was some improvement over the 33 win season before and maybe squeaking into to the playoffs at best.

The fact still remains that LB BROKE TEAM RULES...REPEATEDLY! Steph being resistant to LB's coaching isn't the issue. LB was the coach and could've dealt with that by not playing Steph or HEY HOW ABOUT THIS...TALKING TO HIM MAN TO MAN!!! You forget that he never spoke to Steph about their problems until things had already reached the boiling point and overflowed. No matter how much you and others might want to put this on Steph or any of the other players, LB made it almost impossible for this team to succeed. Tell me how ANY TEAM can win when they have 43 different lineups? Imagine he scrambled the Pistons lineup that much. Do you thin it might have a negative effect? How was this team with so many new faces supposed to develop any kind of chemistry with all that change? Can you blame the players for THAT?

Does it really matter what the rumors are regarding Brown's firing? The guy had an entire year to play the young guys and now at his meeting with the Dolan and Isiah he's gonna say that he intends to play the kids instead of Malik and Mo? Heck he's the one who started Malik 35 games last year. Malik never started more than 13 games in his entire career!!!! AD was SHOCKED that LB wanted to start him. The didn't even want to be here, much less log heavy minutes, yet LB started him 31 of his 36 games here. LB is a freaking phoney! He's saying these lies to try and look better, but his ACTIONS tell the truth.

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by nixluva:

Blueseats I still think that with all that you present, it still doesn't explain WHY LB didn't follow the rules. Back when Nellie did his thing that team didn't have the same press policy and even more important that was a GOOD team already. To try and compare this team with so many NEW faces and YOUNG faces isn't fair at all. We didn't have the same expectations last year that Nellie's team did. All we expected was some improvement over the 33 win season before and maybe squeaking into to the playoffs at best.

The fact still remains that LB BROKE TEAM RULES...REPEATEDLY! Steph being resistant to LB's coaching isn't the issue. LB was the coach and could've dealt with that by not playing Steph or HEY HOW ABOUT THIS...TALKING TO HIM MAN TO MAN!!! You forget that he never spoke to Steph about their problems until things had already reached the boiling point and overflowed. No matter how much you and others might want to put this on Steph or any of the other players, LB made it almost impossible for this team to succeed. Tell me how ANY TEAM can win when they have 43 different lineups? Imagine he scrambled the Pistons lineup that much. Do you thin it might have a negative effect? How was this team with so many new faces supposed to develop any kind of chemistry with all that change? Can you blame the players for THAT?

Does it really matter what the rumors are regarding Brown's firing? The guy had an entire year to play the young guys and now at his meeting with the Dolan and Isiah he's gonna say that he intends to play the kids instead of Malik and Mo? Heck he's the one who started Malik 35 games last year. Malik never started more than 13 games in his entire career!!!! AD was SHOCKED that LB wanted to start him. The didn't even want to be here, much less log heavy minutes, yet LB started him 31 of his 36 games here. LB is a freaking phoney! He's saying these lies to try and look better, but his ACTIONS tell the truth.

There are dfferences between the Nelly and LB situation. Nelly came to an already built contending team. LB came to a rebuilding team. Nelly wanted to run his offense through Mason and wanted Ewing-the cornerstone of the franchise for a decade to step aside for the good of the team. LB wanted a guy that has been here 2 years and run 3 coaches out of town to tweak his game to make his teammates better. Nelly-always a mad scientist-wanted to imploy very odd tactics and lineups (Mason at SF?!?) that have never proven they can win(until he ended up in Dallas with a 7 foot 3 point shooter). LB wanted to play a very traditional system that was proven to work everywhere he went, but his top player didn't want that system. Nelson almost alienated the arguably the best Knick of all-time(Ewing), while LB alienated the best Knicks at the time he was coaching.

If you asked me which coach would be in danger of losing his money, I put my bottom dollar on Nelly.

Posted by joec32033:

Do you really want to go there? He only improves teams one way? Let's take a look...

In 2003(the year Before LB), Detroit ranked 16th in offense at 104.1 per game.
In 2004(LB's first year-where every team he has coached had problems) they were dipped to 102.1-18th in the league. The Next year (2005)they were 16th again at 106 per game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/

In 1997, Philly coached by Johnny Davis, was 24th at 104.4/game.
In 1998(1st year), LB coached them to 21st at 102.5/game. In 1999, till at 21st at 100/game. 2000, 25th at 101.2. 2001, 13th @104.5/game. 2002, 23@ 102.2/game. LB had improved their offense every year he was there except in 2000 over the previous 5 years (the previous 76ers team ranked better than 25 other than the one time LB dipped there and the Johnny Davis team was in 1993.
Larry left in 2004 and Philly dropped to 26th at 98/game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/

Indy in 93-Year before Brown-111.8(5th), 1994-1st year-107.8(10), 1995-110(7th), 1996-110.5(7th).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/


LB may not be an offensive genius-noone claims he is-but he is not an idiot there either. He designed a complicated system of picks to get Reggie Miller the ball, he changed and designed plays to maximize Iverson's offensive abilities...

I'm not impressed with the record that you posted. He did NOTHING for Detroit that they hadn't already achieved.

In Philly it was almost inevitable that they'd eventually get better. Still Look at those rankings! You take AI out of the equation and who knows what that team would look like. The East was weak and he made the most out of that situation and got the Sixers to the finals.

Indy was already quite a good offensive team and LB didn't make them better. LB is a GREAT defensive coach. Let's just leave it at that. If he doesn't have a team with defensive players or at least guys who are willing to commit to defense, he's not going to be of any use. Detroit was a PERFECT situation for him. He should still be the coach of that team. In NY it was absolutely necessary for him to make some adjustments, cuz everyone knew this team didn't have those kinds of players. It was imperative that we improve the D, but not destroy the offense, which was our biggest strength. LB was unable to do that.

Posted by TheGame:

Simply put, in his attempt to expose the weaknesses in our players, LB exposed his own lack of offensive creativity and lack of ability to adapt his system to the players he is given.

Posted by Nalod:

No midlevel was available then they signed Jeffries.

Can't take anything these guys say.

Posted by BlueSeats:

"The coach can't play the games for us," Nate Robinson said. "When we step on that court, it's all on us."

Posted by Nalod:

Posted by rvhoss:

where does it say no midlevel?

Posted by Nalod:

No midlevel was available then they signed Jeffries.

Can't take anything these guys say.

Brown saw it coming
BY GREG LOGAN
Newsday Staff Writer

June 28, 2006


Larry Brown knew the Knicks wanted him to quit long before the story broke May 14 that owner James Dolan was considering a buyout of the remaining $40 million of his contract. Brown even told team president Isiah Thomas, who will take over as coach, that he believed the Knicks were trying to force him out by their resistance to the changes he wanted to make.

The handwriting was on the wall a few days after the Knicks' 23-59 season ended. On the day after the final game, Brown and Thomas met with beat writers and agreed the team had to change. But a person familiar with Brown's situation said that when they met three or four days later to discuss offseason moves, Thomas said, "We're doing nothing."

Thomas told Brown that neither the midlevel salary-cap exception worth about $5 million nor the $1.75-million exception was available to sign free agents. He said Brown did a terrible job and should focus on coaching the same group of players.

Brown's response was, "You're trying to get me to quit."

In a meeting with beat writers Monday, Dolan, Thomas and Madison Square Garden sports operations head Steve Mills said Brown came to them with a demand to waive or buy out five players with a combined salary of $180 million. A Garden official revised that figure downward yesterday.

The players in question, according to persons on both sides of the dispute, were Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jerome James, Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor. Their combined contracts are slightly less than $160 million.

But the person familiar with Brown's situation said his request was misrepresented by Dolan and Thomas. When they told him to coach the same roster, he said he wouldn't play Rose and Taylor. Both players are in the final year of their deals and can be traded to teams looking to clear cap space, which is what likely will happen even with Thomas as coach.

Rather than rely on veterans, Brown told Thomas he would play last season's three rookies, Channing Frye, David Lee and Nate Robinson, plus the players they get in tonight's draft and said the Knicks "would be better."

Brown's problems with Marbury, Francis and James were well documented last season, and he undoubtedly would have welcomed a trade for all of them. Whether he asked the Knicks to waive them and eat their combined $132 million in salary is a matter of conjecture that surely will come up during the arbitration process headed by NBA commissioner David Stern to resolve their contractual dispute.

But when Brown was hired 11 months ago, the person familiar with his situation said, Dolan and Thomas told him, "This will be your team." They understood progress might not come easily the first season.

When Brown lost their support for the changes he wanted, he was convinced their only motive was to discredit him and supplant him with Thomas as coach of the players he hand-picked.

In Brown's meeting with Dolan last Thursday, he never looked at the paper the owner had listing conditions under which Brown supposedly could retain his job. That was because it was obvious to Brown that they didn't want him under the same circumstances to which they agreed when he was hired.

The succession to Thomas as coach, Brown believed, was in the works all along. Contrary to one published report, a person with knowledge of the Knicks' situation said Dolan did not surprise Thomas on Monday with his one-year ultimatum to show "significant progress."

After all, the owner would have been violating his own rules against communicating to employees through the media.


[Edited by - blueSeats on 09-18-2006 11:50 AM]

Third paragraph.

"Look at Coach Brown's resume," Ward continued. "From the outside looking in, he's had short stints but he's been successful. For players to feel they can't play a system . . . the Detroit Pistons won a title. They might not have liked the system, but they won. The same thing in Indiana. I just think the Knicks are immature."