Posted by Masterplan:

nixluva quick question. what do you think about the fact that every team marbury leaves has an immediate, significant improvement? what does that say about the "circumstances" marbury was under?

1st of all its not like teams just get rid of Steph and that is all it took for the team to improve. In NJ they added one of best PGs in the league in Kidd, KMart and Kittles got fully healthy and played complete seasons, which they had not done with Steph. They also got RJ and Collins in the draft. That's a BIG difference from the actual players who suited up with Steph. Kmart barely played with Steph and Kittles missed an entire season. Heck even Steph was injured during those years.

PHX added a great PG in Nash, Amare returned healthy, they also added QRich and so forth. In addition the system they played under was different than when Steph was there. D'Antoni was just made headcoach less than a month before they traded Steph to NY.

So far here in NY Steph has had 1.5 great seasons personally. 03-04 he avg'd 19.8 and 9.3asts it would've been better than that if H2O was fully healthy and if Isiah hadn't had traded KVH and Doleac. He didn't have H2O, got stuck with Shandon and lost TT in the playoffs, so what did he do so wrong in that instance, against what was a bigtime Nets team?

04-05 Steph had a great personal season, but again not having a healthy H2O and a LOST TT didn't help matters. The team wasn't gonna be great anyway but that didn't help. So Isiah makes the decision to shift gears and trades Nazr. It looked like insanity to many, but in the end we ended up with more draft picks in a good draft and we now have a nice nucleus of young players so it was worth the sacrifice of a season.

Last year was a disaster as we know, but really there were too many factors in making it so bad. It didn't have to be that bad. The team wasn't great, but it wasn't as bad as they made it seem either. talent wise this is an above .500 team. It will simply take a cohesive effort for this team to come together and play like a team. I expect Steph to hold up his end and isiah to hold up his. i expect the rest of the team to be much improved and we can end all this talk about past failures. We can instead look to the future of this team. Which is very bright.

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by BlueSeats:

I don't think the question should be whether the losing was the fault of Marbury or injuries, the more significant question in my mind is if the only problem was injuries why was Marbury, the healthy one, moved out?

My own research leads me to conclude the answer is repeatedly for reasons of chemistry.

WRONG! In Minny it was Steph not wanting to play there any longer. Remember Steph had just helped that franchise to the only success it had known up to that point.

Minny did not force Marbury out, it's true, but all the telltale signs of a team headed for turmoil were present. Here is an excerpt from an article shortly after his trade from Minny:

There is no denying Marbury's talent, but there is room to question his priorities and his commitment to winning. Marbury told SI in January 1998 that he was thinking of bolting Minnesota when his contract was up because of the weather and because he missed his New York friends. This news stunned the Timberwolves' front office, which later discovered that Marbury had made those comments just days after a local night spot refused to serve him alcohol because he was underage. "They give me my own table in New York!" Marbury reportedly fumed between expletives.

At his press conference last Friday, Marbury insisted that reuniting with friends and family was his main objective in forcing the trade. Minnesota says Marbury believed he was missing out on endorsements because he was playing in a small-market city, and that he couldn't accept being paid less than teammate Kevin Garnett because Marbury views himself as the better player. Garnett signed a seven-year, $126 million extension before the new collective bargaining agreement went into effect; under the new deal, the most Marbury could make in Minnesota was $70.9 million for six years, which New Jersey gladly gave him last Friday.

The departure of Marbury left his ex-teammates shell-shocked. They had no trouble overlooking his mood swings because of his exceptional skills. "Steph changed like the wind, from one day to the next," McHale says. "Even on the court, there was the good Steph and the bad Steph. The bad Steph thought only about his game. The good Steph moved the ball, got others involved, took big shots. We got him up to being that guy around 80 percent of the time near the end, which was up from 25 percent when we first got him."

The Timberwolves are left to ponder what happened to their promising foundation of Garnett, Marbury and Tom Gugliotta, who took a lot less money to sign with Phoenix in January. Saunders says Gugliotta had told Minnesota he would re-sign with the Timberwolves -- if they agreed to trade Marbury.

So we already see the entitlement complex in full effect: he wants his own table at bars (while underage) and to be paid more than the collective bargaining agreement even allows.

We also see priorities of convenience over those of winning, like being with his entourage and greater large-market endorsements.

Lastly we see his mood swings, teammates dying to get away from him and management working hard to get more than the 25% team oriented effort he offered.

Your perspective is on wins (and excuses) so you can speak of his 46 win season as a positive, but trouble was brewing from an effort and chemistry standpoint, and he ultimately held the team hostage and forced a trade for personal reasons when the franchise felt itself poised to make great strides. They must have been ecstatic to get brandon and find they could do even better, and with far fewer aggravations, until his injuries set in.

In NJ it most likely was a feeling that they needed to change since things had gotten so negative with all the losing and it effected Steph in a bad way.

It affected Steph in a bad way, and he affected them in a worse way. That's why he got moved and not the injured players you blame the losing on.

But don't take my word for it, lets see what K-Mart, Aaron Williams and Rod Thorn. Again, from an article shortly after his trade from NJ:


It figures: even when the "old" Nets traded for a supertalent--they got Marbury in an enormous three-team, nine-player deal in 1999--they ended up with the wrong one. "The difference between last year and this year?" ponders an emotional Kenyon Martin, taking out his furiously repressed feelings on his sneaker laces in the near-deserted Nets locker room an hour before facing the Indiana Pacers. `This year we have guys who want to play. Last year we had some people in here who were too busy tapping themselves on the shoulder, telling themselves how great they were."

"Last year, we didn't play any defense," forward Aaron Williams, a 6'10" supersub, chimes in from the next stall. "On any NBA team, the leader sets the tone. And our leader didn't bother playing D most nights."

"He thought he was too good for that--then he'd blame everybody else, pointing fingers," Martin adds. "I'm not naming any names, you understand, but this was an unhappy, divided locker room last year. And the division was one guy on one side and everyone else on the other."

"Yes, we did have one guy in here last year who thought he was too good for everybody else on the team and didn't mind saying so," smiles GM Rod Thorn, still remaining strictly incognito about the "one guy's" identity. "And he was, too. Better than everyone else, that is. But it all didn't add up to much, did it?"

Please read that twice. Divided locker rooms, finger pointing, thinking he's better than everyone else, no defense, setting a bad tone, and things just not adding up like they should.

In PHX it had more to do with a lack of flexibility. Remember that Steph had led the team to the playoffs the year before and they had high hopes for the team. With Amare going down early that season they had a valid reason to make a trade during the season that they might have put off to the offseason if the team had a chance to make the playoffs. With Steph and Penny on the books they had no room to make improvements in the roster. Remember that they didn't know they'd be able to get Nash. They caught a big break when Dallas decided not to resign Nash.

When things are looking good one isn't as focused on "flexibility" and big changes, they are interested in tweaking. The marbury move was not a tweak, it was a leadership overhaul. And you yourself point out that they didn't know they could get Nash, so why Jettison their team leader with a chance they might get nothing in return if things were good?

Because, in fact, they weren't.

Below is an exchange I had with a sportswriter who, like you, asserted the Phoenix trade was cap-space motivated (which we all know it was) more so than chemistry. You'll see he's basically talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time by saying the deal was MOTIVATED by capspace while also acknowledging that if Marbury were a better chemistry guy they would have kept him.

He failed to reply to my final response:

SPortwriter X writes:

Cap space was the motivating factor behind the Marbury deal. The Suns wanted Nash, who was a free agent that summer. They had wanted him for a while and knew Dallas was uncertain about keeping him. So the Suns got aggressive, traded Marbury and were left with a ton of cap space.

That's not to say Marbury was not a pain in the neck in Phoenix---he's been a pain everywhere he has gone, and the Suns knew that when they got him in the first place. He's not a leader, and he is not a good chemistry guy. If he was, then, yeah, perhaps the Suns would not have felt a need to trade him.

But that trade was about cap space, and it was about getting Nash. Marbury was not traded because of clashes within the organization or attitude adjustment. The SUns were not looking to get rid of Marbury just to get rid of him. If the Knicks had not been offering McDyess' expiring contract, the deal would not have happened.

Thanks, and I appreciate your patience,
xxxx

BlueSeats replies:

Thanks for your reply!!!

Mind to go one more round?

I hear what you are saying about them not getting rid of Steph just to be rid of him. When you say he was not traded because of “clashes within the organization or attitude adjustment”, I accept that there may not have been a singular defining moment that tmay have occurred elsewhere -- like demanding equal pay as Garnett in Minny, or writing “All Alone” on his sneakers in NJ. But I also can’t imagine they’d take the risk that they did were they not seriously concerned about their direction with him.

As the saying goes, “you don’t win championships with cap space.” It wasn’t like they traded Steph for Nash, where they knew what they were getting. It was a huge gamble going for Nash. Cuban was a known spender and Nash was integral to the Mavs. He was Dirk’s best friend and a fan favorite, so the odds of getting him were against them. I can’t imagine they’d take that risk if they were remotely happy with Marbury.

I’m swayed by the words of Suns Owner, Jerry Colangelo. He was explaining the firing of Frank Johnson but I believe they applied to Marbury too:

"There's been something amiss all year, in my opinion," Suns owner Jerry Colangelo said. "The more I saw on the floor, the more I disliked what I saw as it related to body language, communication or lack of same."....

This year's season began with high expectations, but t was obvious that last year's chemistry had, for the most part, disappeared.

"Everybody's got to be in the trench together and it just didn't seem that way," Jerry Colangelo said. "That's not pointing fingers at anyone, but the bottom line was something's got to change."

"We've got to get some excitement into the arena," he said. "Sometimes this year, it felt kind of down, like we were waiting to let the cannon fall on our head, like 'When are we going to mess up so people can talk bad about us?"'


Those words could apply equally to Marbury’s years in NJ and NY. It seems a pattern.

And we see D’antoni speak of almost a cloud being lifted just DAYS after the trade. Suddenly all sort of things regarding attitudes and responsibility were on the upswing:

Like last night, we’re coming from the road trip and we’re on the plane, just sitting up with the coaches. Barbosa’s watching the game, talking with one coach about his play, then we had Shawn Marion’s up with another coach talking about his play, then we had Jake Voskuhl with another coach looking at his game. And Lampe’s up there just watching the whole scene. That didn’t happen before. There were a lot of expectations and things were going bad. It’s hard for a player to blame himself, so they were either blaming each other or us and it was a negative. Now that is lifted and people are stepping out and taking responsibility and they understand where we can go if we do it right.


And talk of turmoil and upset were not uncommon:

David Aldridge, ESPN.com:
"You may think I hate this deal from the PHX side. I don't hate it, really. I've heard for weeks that Steph and Amaré Stoudemire haven't been feeling one another, that whatever chemistry the Suns had when they took the Spurs to the brink in the first round last spring never returned this season. Even Mike D'Antoni admitted before Monday's game with the Bulls that Steph may have dominated the ball to the detriment of Stoudemire and Shawn Marion."

Now let's see what Hardaway, who came in the deal with Marbury, thought:

"Coach D'Antoni is a great coach," Hardaway said. "He tried to have us buy into this system when we were here, and we really didn't. There was so much turmoil going on.Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson came in and had the type of game Coach wanted. That's up and down, push the ball, kick it ahead and it doesn't matter who shoots or who scores ... We had enough on the team to get it done, but we just didn't buy into the system."

Hardaway was upset in Phoenix because his playing time was reduced to make way for younger players. Marbury was in the middle of the turmoil that enveloped the Suns.

"It was like guys talking behind each other's backs, guys being selfish, everybody was trying to get their own," Hardaway said. "That leads to trades, and that broke the team up. It doesn't seem like they have any of that going on right now."

This is not a difficult puzzle to construct. Colangelo tells us the chemistry was lost and changes NEEDED to be made. Hardaway tells us that INFIGHTING is what broke the team up. And D'Antoni tells us chemistry and accountability are BETTER just days after the trade, let alone when Nash comes in.

The proof in the pudding is Isiah himself telling us the reason Marbury was available was not because the Suns wanted cap space, but because Marbury is FLAWED and tries to lead through INTIMIDATION:

"When we got him here in New York, the reason why we were able to get him is because he has flaws," said Isiah Thomas, the Knicks' president, who acquired Marbury in a splashy trade last January. "And you don't correct those flaws in four months. But I look at where he is at today and this year, he's laying a great foundation for him to springboard to success in this league. And it's not easy."

"The type of leader I think he's developing into, he's accepting of his teammates' criticism. Before, it was like nobody could say if he was doing anything wrong. Teammates were afraid. So everybody kind of sniped behind his back, as opposed to trying to help him and teach him."[/b]

Thomas speculated that Marbury had tried to lead through intimidation. That certainly seemed to be the case in New Jersey, where Marbury publicly criticized Kerry Kittles and Keith Van Horn; and in Phoenix, where Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion reportedly grew weary of his demeanor.


Colangelo, D’Antoni, Haradaway, David Aldridge, and Isiah .... to a man they speak to the trade and reflect on issues of chemistry, chemistry, and chemistry. Too hard for me to ignore.

Any thoughts?

Thanks again,
xxxx

Well I'm not surprised he had no response, I think the issues are pretty apparent. And they're the same issues we've seen at each of Marbury's former and latter stops, including here, where two players want to kick his butt, another calls him his worst teammate ever, three coaches have bitten the dust, a poor leadership tone is set with regard to playing hard and defense, poor response to adversity, claims from players we need more guys who are team-oriented, and management constantly trying to add and remove players to resolve apparent and admitted chemistry problems.

Sorry, but these chronic and recurring issues are not the stuff that's easily explained by injuries.

(I don't know why everything at the bottom is bolded. Oh well.)

this is all old news re: steph. the question is - do you think that you can win with him, yes or no? i think that 10 years and countless excuses later, the answer is no. too much baggage, too much greatness only in spurts, too much folding when things aren't going his way. i'd love to see him traded and have us move on. i think he and his equally overpaid backcourtmate the franchise are draining the ability of this team to really move forward with new blood.

I just want to add that yes marbs is an ******* on the court. When it comes to basketball he knows he is good but he thinks he is better than he is. He's taken big shots in the past but at times he has past up many big ones especially in a knick uniform. He disappears. When his teamates need him in the lay 2 mins of games.

Yeah that if the truth, but the guy is still a good player and I hope now that he has the players around him he can evolve his game. I hope he does it in a knick uniform.

The surgen general has determined it is hazardous to your health to play with Marborobury.

Posted by martin:

Posted by Rich:

Why did Cuban let Nash go again?

money, age, injury potential.

That and he HAD to have Erick Dampier.....

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by EnySpree:

I just want to add that yes marbs is an ******* on the court. When it comes to basketball he knows he is good but he thinks he is better than he is. He's taken big shots in the past but at times he has past up many big ones especially in a knick uniform. He disappears. When his teamates need him in the lay 2 mins of games.

Yeah that if the truth, but the guy is still a good player and I hope now that he has the players around him he can evolve his game. I hope he does it in a knick uniform.

Hey Spree, I NEVER agree with you but I think you hit the nail on the head there. Lets hope Marbles turns himself around in a Knick Uni, its all we can hope for!

I guess we can start shopping at H&M together, lol.

You know we agree when it comes down to pure basketball but we will always clash when the soap opera takes over your mind.

Go knicks and long live H&M!

Posted by nixluva:

I think its just funny how we can be so sure that Steph was the main reason for the chemistry problems, when in NJ & PHX the year Steph was traded the team had major injuries. OF COURSE things were sour then. If you're losing NO ONE is HAPPY!!!! The remaining players can speak positively about how much better things are cuz its a convenient excuse for them. Yeah blame sourpuss Steph for the team not playing well. Its not like the Suns lit up the league after they traded Steph. It wasn't until the NEXT year that the team really improved talent wise and wins wise. Yeah KT and TT can blame Steph for the team losing. TT had things within his own power to control and he SUCKED! KT never liked Steph so he just talked crap, but he had better stats in NY with Steph.

So how come after he leaves the chemistry is back to good and the teams start winning? Jason Kidd has had his share of chemistry problems in the past. Various teammates at various stops have had problems with Marbury and thats a problem becuase the PG is supposed to be the leader of the team and general, if the general is clashing with his teammates then your not going to go anywhere. Sure some teammates like Leandro Barbosa LOVE Marbury but the players that come out and say that are few and far between. Marbury has been a chemistry killer everywhere he's went, its not even debatable.

I'm with you on Marbs. Most of the time it's just someone facing a deadline and needing to stir up something so they find someone to make a comment about Marbs or they bring up an old story that hasn't been beaten to death yet. None of these guys are as bad as the media makes them out. But Marbs isn't as good as some try to make him out to be. He is being questioned for a reason. His teams have total collapses for a reason. When you are the best player on the team and the accidental "leader" you cannot be part of the problem. When you whine, the team whines. When you whine you can still score 20 pts and average 8 assists and look good. When your teammates whine their numbers suffer because they aren't as talented. When you blame your teammates you may be right, but your teammates don't care, they need you to uplift them. Marbs has never learned these things. He thinks putting up numbers(and so do many on this site) is the end all be all. But numbers mean nothing. They mean no more than talking during the offseason. If you are the best player, you must at least be able to lift your team up above their expectations without you. So far we have seen teams either stay the same or get worse when he is there. Fair or not, the evidence doesn't lie. It's time for Marbs to act like he's in his 30's swallow his pride, stop trying to impress the non-players with pretty crossovers and impress the fans by listening and helping your team win games. Do that and these posts go away. Stay the course and he will retire less known than Charlie Ward.

Posted by nyk4ever:

First of all, Marbury had his shot to play in Phoenix's offense and he squandered it. He didn't like the system and he didn't buy into what D'Antoni was doing, I don't want to hear anything about how he's never gotten that oppourtunity.

Second of all, I looked up the all-time APG leaders in the NBA. Wanna hear something ironic, EVERY single one of those players, who averaged over 8APG for their career, played in well over 30 playoff games by the time they were Steph's age, most of them played in well over 40-50 playoff games at that age. Steph is at 18. 18 playoff games for Starbury, the man that gives you 20&8 every nite on the court. Yeah I know, you'll all blame it on his teammates but fact is, Steph has squandered every single oppourtunity he's had with his attitude and me-first style and leadership on the court.

You are a theif!!! You took the words right out of my mouth broth'a! stars a bum to the bone! And Nash said it best about Brown. Brown's a teacher and he didn't have time to do it in NYC.

Posted by Elite:

Humble.... What an underated word.

When someone who has accomplished something can also be humble, that is when they are worthy of the utmost respect.

confidence is also to be respected, however a humble confidence is far more effective..... Not only in how you are viewed by your peers, but in winning.

You don't win MVP two years in a row for nothing.