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Nalod
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8/17/2006  3:01 PM
Remember when he donated his $150,000 necklace at 4am while driving his Bentley in Manhatten?
AUTOADVERT
nyk4ever
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8/17/2006  3:08 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Just one thing tho...If Isiah some how get this same roster that Larry had to 40 victories, please admit that Larry was the reason for the 23 wins and not Marbs or Isiah or Curry or JJ....I'm laying my balls on the line that things will get turned around this year...I just hope many of you Larry lovers will do the same....

We already know LB was the reason for the 23 wins. It's the way he does things, he does things maticulously and year one is always a rough season because he's trying to find out alot of different things about his team. Larry Brown is not a coach a team chooses for a short period of time, he builds teams, he needs 3 years minimum. We've all conceeded this to you already.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Masterplan
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8/17/2006  3:29 PM
oohah- so, if we win somewhere in the mid-30's, then does that mean that IT has actually assembled a cast of losers and should be gone?
oohah
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8/17/2006  3:41 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

oohah- so, if we win somewhere in the mid-30's, then does that mean that IT has actually assembled a cast of losers and should be gone?



If IT wins mid-30's games this upcomi9ng season, it means IT has produced a 50% improvement over what LB did last year. I think that is pretty significant so, no he should not be fired for a win total in the mid-30's. That would be unfair and based on unrealistic expectations. One cannot expect to go from the absolute sewer to Park Avenue in one season.

Of course there is the context of a season that has not played out yet, so maybe IT will do something else that will warrant his firing.

I would be happy with making the playoffs, which would be a hell of an improvement. I am expecting to see the team win 37-41 games.

I think IT has to produce at least 10 wins more than LB to be safe. More importantly, we should se some HOPE.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Masterplan
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8/17/2006  3:50 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by Masterplan:

oohah- so, if we win somewhere in the mid-30's, then does that mean that IT has actually assembled a cast of losers and should be gone?



If IT wins mid-30's games this upcomi9ng season, it means IT has produced a 50% improvement over what LB did last year. I think that is pretty significant so, no he should not be fired for a win total in the mid-30's. That would be unfair and based on unrealistic expectations. One cannot expect to go from the absolute sewer to Park Avenue in one season.

Of course there is the context of a season that has not played out yet, so maybe IT will do something else that will warrant his firing.

I would be happy with making the playoffs, which would be a hell of an improvement. I am expecting to see the team win 37-41 games.

I think IT has to produce at least 10 wins more than LB to be safe. More importantly, we should se some HOPE.

oohah

i understand. i guess i'm just uncertain about this ultimatum to show improvement. if we win 24 games, does IT stay? 30? 35?

if the argument is that this season will show the true strength of this roster, then we should absolutely not put up with fewer than 33 wins, a 10 game improvement. from dolan's perspective, he'd be paying a whole heap for a lottery team. from the fan's perspective, ti means we've only regressed since IT took over.

i agree that 40 wins would vindicate IT, especially with the youth we have. i'm not sure if too many less would give him the same vote of confidence. thoughts?
newyorknewyork
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8/17/2006  3:57 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I do find one thing very weird. Just another observation, I don't have an opinion on this. But some people say Isiah has done a great job of adding talent to the team. Then when the losses increase year to year some of the same people say Marbs' has no talent next to him. I guess you can have it both ways.

On the flip side. The knicks are a poorly constructed roster. With a bunch of overpaid, redundant, underachievers. The defense for everything not Isiah & Marbury is just as strong.

The knicks have talent. But its not put together talent. Curry & Crawford (to name a few) have great talent. But its far from put together or complete. Isiah gotta find the roles that each person excells at and put them in a position of strength. We gotta force teams to play are game. We have a team full of guys who can put the ball in the basket right. There for Isiahs job as coach is to exploit that and win games doing so.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Masterplan
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8/17/2006  4:00 PM
i guess my main question is, what would keep this roster from showing its true colors this season? does LB have any negative impact a year removed? if last season was indeed larry's fault, then why does last season's record matter at all, to say "50% improvement?" shouldn't this coming season's record be all IT's vindication/fault?
wsdm
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8/17/2006  4:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:


NBA basketball is not a sport where you win without good players around you...You can put losing on Marbs shoulders without looking at his supporting cast but you will be just doing yourself a disservice...Maybe you don't care about that...But there are many players who has the skills to win that has not won because of not having good people around them...KG is a good example...
has KG ever had a losing season? Ever? Got any other examples? Then there's that little tidbit about every team Marbury leaves instantly gets better.

The amount of excuses generated for this guy is mind numbing. He's a productive player statistically and never shown he can lead a winning team. Maybe this year huh?
Why does he have to be an outstanding leader? Why can't he just be a very good player who contributes?
www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
Nalod
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8/17/2006  4:21 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by holfresh:


NBA basketball is not a sport where you win without good players around you...You can put losing on Marbs shoulders without looking at his supporting cast but you will be just doing yourself a disservice...Maybe you don't care about that...But there are many players who has the skills to win that has not won because of not having good people around them...KG is a good example...
has KG ever had a losing season? Ever? Got any other examples? Then there's that little tidbit about every team Marbury leaves instantly gets better.

The amount of excuses generated for this guy is mind numbing. He's a productive player statistically and never shown he can lead a winning team. Maybe this year huh?
Why does he have to be an outstanding leader? Why can't he just be a very good player who contributes?

Ask him,

oohah
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8/17/2006  4:25 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

i guess my main question is, what would keep this roster from showing its true colors this season? does LB have any negative impact a year removed? if last season was indeed larry's fault, then why does last season's record matter at all, to say "50% improvement?" shouldn't this coming season's record be all IT's vindication/fault?

Last year's record does count. The team was supposed to get better last year. They got worse. If you ask me their progress was retarded. They need to get back to mediocrity before the become downright good.

Not that there should be a carryover effect of LB's sucking, but the team is coming from a certain point (super-low). That cannot be discounted. The previous season is a benchmark in all sports and for all teams. The Knicks were set back last year, so there is a longer hill to climb.

I'm not sure what you mean by "true colors". Are you saying that they SHOULD perform better than an around .500 team? I don't think that is realistic. I think "true colors" is around .500. Then they can improve from there.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Solace
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8/17/2006  4:38 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Good players always whine about doing their best while great players win championships. PERIOD.

That should be the front page quote.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
nyk4ever
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8/17/2006  4:40 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Good players always whine about doing their best while great players win championships. PERIOD.

That should be the front page quote.

Now that you mention it, get it done Martin!
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
arkrud
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8/17/2006  6:29 PM
Steph again putting to much pressure on himself...
Come on man. Relax. Enjoy you money. Play the game and have fun.
Then everything will be OK.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
TMS
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8/17/2006  7:53 PM
Posted by wsdm:

Why does he have to be an outstanding leader? Why can't he just be a very good player who contributes?

he's the one proclaiming himself to be the best PG in the NBA... is it unreasonable to want him to live up to his own self created hype for once, or at least come close to it?

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Masterplan
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8/17/2006  8:38 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by Masterplan:

i guess my main question is, what would keep this roster from showing its true colors this season? does LB have any negative impact a year removed? if last season was indeed larry's fault, then why does last season's record matter at all, to say "50% improvement?" shouldn't this coming season's record be all IT's vindication/fault?

Last year's record does count. The team was supposed to get better last year. They got worse. If you ask me their progress was retarded. They need to get back to mediocrity before the become downright good.

Not that there should be a carryover effect of LB's sucking, but the team is coming from a certain point (super-low). That cannot be discounted. The previous season is a benchmark in all sports and for all teams. The Knicks were set back last year, so there is a longer hill to climb.

i'm not sure i'm convinced. they were bad last season, so they will not be as good as they could be this season? i'm not expecting 50 wins, or any number. i expect this season to show what the roster is capable of. at the end of the season, i will not accept the excuse, "blah blah larry brown last year blah." from players or IT.
I'm not sure what you mean by "true colors". Are you saying that they SHOULD perform better than an around .500 team? I don't think that is realistic. I think "true colors" is around .500. Then they can improve from there.

oohah

by "true colors" i mean that they underachieved last year, but we have no real idea how much. the debate is, do we have a team of underacheiving losers, or was it larry's fault? i see no reason this year should be effected by last year. whatever their record is, that is what our team is now. if we win 33 games, IT has assembled an expensive lottery team of losers. if we win 40, we have a borderline playoff team with some youth not yet at their potential that got screwed last season. no excuses.

does that make more sense?

[Edited by - Masterplan on 08-17-2006 8:40 PM]
wsdm
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8/17/2006  9:31 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by wsdm:

Why does he have to be an outstanding leader? Why can't he just be a very good player who contributes?

he's the one proclaiming himself to be the best PG in the NBA... is it unreasonable to want him to live up to his own self created hype for once, or at least come close to it?
You make it sound like he's been saying that daily for the past ten years. After being asked, he said that once and probably regrets it. What's the point in harping on that one comment?
www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
nixluva
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8/17/2006  9:31 PM
Despite the team records and all I do feel that Steph is one of the better PG's in the league. He's not a pure point, but then neither was Isiah. From what I can see he has the ability to lift the play of his teammates just being himself, as evidenced by the 10 game stretch that included the streak. Before he got hurt, he was playing his game and his teammates followed him to wins or at least more competitive games. So its not like he has NEVER helped a team improve or can't. What that showed me was that LB really didn't do this team any favors by trying to change Steph's game. All LB really had to do was work on Steph's D and leave his offensive game alone. What he needs now is for this team to stay together, grow and jell.

Isiah will give this team an identity and confidence and that will go a LOOONG way towards helping them be successful. Just imagine you have a Boss who keeps telling you that you aren't doing things right and even when you do he's not giving you any positive feedback. Chances are you'll be a bit less confident in what you're doing and it will show in your work. The whole team seemed to be looking over their shoulders and that can't be good. Its not the only way to get a team to play winning ball. Mike D'Antoni doesn't have to do that and neither did Avery Johnson. Constructive criticism is one thing but you don't want you're players to play timid. With less of that kind of thing happening, this year I expect a 40+ win season from this team.
rvhoss
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8/17/2006  9:39 PM
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=17185

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-17-2006 9:40 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
rvhoss
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8/17/2006  9:45 PM
I couldn't agree with you more...most of the time I'm attempting to put into words why I expect it. Maybe I don't go on realGM enough, but I believe in the circumstances and the people being put in these cicumstances and how they have performed in the past.

There is nowhere for marbury to go, he's coney island...where's he gonna go.

It's on this year and everyone knows it...there will be plenty of injuries and there will be plenty of moral victories, but this year I plan on running roughshod over the league.

Eff miami, heck, we HAVE beaten every team this last year and they looked like a completely different team...like they all rebelled or listened at the same time.

we won 23 games but I remember jumping for joy watching some crazy kids dunking on men. Running the floor and making, well, rookie mistakes...this season was fun as hell...and we sucked.

This year is going to be crazy...the nets are a year older, wade is a torn acl away from being gayel sayers (spelling, sorry), there is nothing that says the knicks will suck again...not even history...marbury will be injured this year...you can bet on that, because anybody not making a hospital visit if we don't make the playoffs will be after the season.
Posted by nixluva:

Despite the team records and all I do feel that Steph is one of the better PG's in the league. He's not a pure point, but then neither was Isiah. From what I can see he has the ability to lift the play of his teammates just being himself, as evidenced by the 10 game stretch that included the streak. Before he got hurt, he was playing his game and his teammates followed him to wins or at least more competitive games. So its not like he has NEVER helped a team improve or can't. What that showed me was that LB really didn't do this team any favors by trying to change Steph's game. All LB really had to do was work on Steph's D and leave his offensive game alone. What he needs now is for this team to stay together, grow and jell.

Isiah will give this team an identity and confidence and that will go a LOOONG way towards helping them be successful. Just imagine you have a Boss who keeps telling you that you aren't doing things right and even when you do he's not giving you any positive feedback. Chances are you'll be a bit less confident in what you're doing and it will show in your work. The whole team seemed to be looking over their shoulders and that can't be good. Its not the only way to get a team to play winning ball. Mike D'Antoni doesn't have to do that and neither did Avery Johnson. Constructive criticism is one thing but you don't want you're players to play timid. With less of that kind of thing happening, this year I expect a 40+ win season from this team.



[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-17-2006 9:46 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
fishmike
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8/18/2006  7:24 AM
Posted by holfresh:


Just one thing tho...If Isiah some how get this same roster that Larry had to 40 victories, please admit that Larry was the reason for the 23 wins and not Marbs or Isiah or Curry or JJ....I'm laying my balls on the line that things will get turned around this year...I just hope many of you Larry lovers will do the same....
Since the Knicks traded Ewing I have been saying the same thing. The problem with the Knicks is the players. Plain and simple. It still baffles me people point to the coach then talk about how much they know about basketball. The Layden era wasnt bad because of Don Chaney. It was bad because a frontcourt of Ewing, LJ, Kurt, Camby and Dudley became a frontcourt of Kurt, Harrington, Spoon, Travis Knight and later a slightly aged Mutumbo.

Larry failed. He messed up, but the players still had to lose the games. The Lenny era started with Marbury kissing him. We all know how it ended. Herb tried but the players still didnt perform.

If we have a good season it will be because the players are playing well. Because they are playing hard. Because they are willing to make the kind of sacrifices Van Gundy and Riley talked about for 10 years that translate into winning basketball. If Steph has to be Starbury, if Steve has to be Franchise, if Jalen Rose and Mo Taylor pout because they arent getting minutes in a contract year, if half our frontcourt in Curry, Big Snacks and Mo shows up fat and out of shape, then we will fail, and it will be ugly. It will be first be the fault of the players. First and foremost it falls on them. Then its the fault of the GM, who assembed a bunch of players with a history of all the things I just mentioned.

If your still harping about LArry you havent been watching whats gone on here for the last 5 years.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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