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Frye = Overrated?
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SlimPack
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8/10/2006  2:11 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Solace:

=
He posted one game, he got responded to on the basis of the one game, because as far as I can tell, that was his argument. Nobody said Frye had only one good game. Frye had his share of bad games, though. I think he will turn out pretty good, but there's no question he's overrated here. We're talking about a big man who is a below-average rebounder and poor defender. Until he really works on those parts of his game, names like Duncan, etc... should never be mentioned. I like Frye's offensive game, but there's a lot more to the NBA than one element.

THANKYOU Solace. I've been saying this for awhile now, I'm happy someone else realizes it too. I love the shooting aspect of Frye's game but other than that if you didn't know how tall he was, you would think he's a shooting guard. Frye doesn't rebound the ball and he doesnt defend well, two things that you NEED in the NBA from your starting 4. I don't want to hear how Frye is still young and still has a chance to get better at this because I watched him his whole collegiate career and he was always weak at these aspects and he still was last year. I love Frye, he's a great kid but he's extremely overated on this board because he really only shoots the ball well. I'll be the first in line to see him post 18/10 next year, I just don't wear rose-colored glasses.


wait a second, you think frye is extremely overrted but think he will put up 18/10? frye will be lucky if he can put up 16/6. anyway frye isnt as bad defensively as you've portrayed him, and he looks like his has good potential as a defender if you as me.
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Anji
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8/10/2006  3:47 AM
Posted by oohah:

I see no aspect of his game to lament or doubt yet. Let's give him a year or two, study him, truly learn his weaknesses, and then use them against him to destroy him!!!!
oohah

LOL, I busted out laughing when I read that part.
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Rich
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8/10/2006  4:10 AM
Posted by islesfan:

Has the one legged gimpy Amare stopped abusing Frye yet?

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crzymdups
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8/10/2006  4:46 AM
Posted by islesfan:

Has the one legged gimpy Amare stopped abusing Frye yet?

Amare didn't look too gimpy, and he's abused, absolutely destoryed KG and Duncan over the past two years. He's the best big man in the world. What's your point?

Frye led the Knicks in PER last year, despite never having consistent minutes from the idiot savant Brown.
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nyk4ever
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8/10/2006  11:24 AM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Solace:

=
He posted one game, he got responded to on the basis of the one game, because as far as I can tell, that was his argument. Nobody said Frye had only one good game. Frye had his share of bad games, though. I think he will turn out pretty good, but there's no question he's overrated here. We're talking about a big man who is a below-average rebounder and poor defender. Until he really works on those parts of his game, names like Duncan, etc... should never be mentioned. I like Frye's offensive game, but there's a lot more to the NBA than one element.

THANKYOU Solace. I've been saying this for awhile now, I'm happy someone else realizes it too. I love the shooting aspect of Frye's game but other than that if you didn't know how tall he was, you would think he's a shooting guard. Frye doesn't rebound the ball and he doesnt defend well, two things that you NEED in the NBA from your starting 4. I don't want to hear how Frye is still young and still has a chance to get better at this because I watched him his whole collegiate career and he was always weak at these aspects and he still was last year. I love Frye, he's a great kid but he's extremely overated on this board because he really only shoots the ball well. I'll be the first in line to see him post 18/10 next year, I just don't wear rose-colored glasses.


wait a second, you think frye is extremely overrted but think he will put up 18/10? frye will be lucky if he can put up 16/6. anyway frye isnt as bad defensively as you've portrayed him, and he looks like his has good potential as a defender if you as me.

Woah woah woah, hold up here. I didn't say I think he'll get 18/10, I was saying, I'll be the first in line too TAKE 18/10 from him because I'm a Knicks fan. I don't think he'll come anywhere close to it, especially rebounds wise.
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fishmike
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8/10/2006  11:48 AM
Frye's D and rebounding sucks. Totally sucks. It wasnt great in CBB either. I think Frye's downside is he's a bigtime scorer in the NBA. He's got great hands, a nice touch and runs/fills the lane very well. I can easily see him scoring at 50-52% from everywhere, including downtown.

What will determine whether Frye is a 16ppg scoring role player or a 24ppg scoring cog is whether he can guard and board. He tries.. I give him that. He's not lazy, he works hard, so hopefully he gets it. Right now I would start Lee/JJSkinny at he forwards with Curry and Franbury (not cause I like to, but you gotta play them)
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Bonn1997
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8/10/2006  12:04 PM
Frye is a bit overrated by some posters but people have said some things that I don't think are accurate.
"Frye has no low post game":
He has a nice baby hook with EITHER hand from the low post. He could use some more moves, but that move with either hand is effective.

"Frye's a poor rebounder"
Frye's about an average rebounder. (I think he was actually top 5 in rbs/game off the bench.) If he could could get better at boxing out, he has the right body to be a stud rebounder. He has a lot of work to do to reach his potential in rebounding.
fishmike
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8/10/2006  1:14 PM
how do you define average? Because he collects and average # of rebounds? That makes zero sense. Watch a game, he's always getting pushed around, constantly fails to box out and is out of position. I'm not going by #s, I'm going by what I see. He gets boards because he's long and athletic. His rebounding fundamentals suck
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Bonn1997
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8/10/2006  2:15 PM
That's precisely how I define average and I agree that his fundamentals are poor. That's what prevents him from being the well above average rebounder he's capable of being.
fishmike
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8/10/2006  2:45 PM
well, for a 6'11 guy I say he's well below average. If guys like Marbury are in the curve and you want to call Frye an average rebounder so be it.

It just kills me when Tom or whoever else throws out stats that supposedly prove we are a good rebounding team, then night in and out I'm watching Curry, Frye and whoever else get pushed off the glass. Its a need, you cant watch the games and tell me its not a need.

I think Lee is ready to elevate his game in that area. Frye I dont know about yet, and Curry isnt in a contract year so I have to assume he will show up out of shape. I'm praying to be wrong
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Bonn1997
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8/10/2006  3:33 PM
His rebounding #s for his playing time are about average for a PF/C. Only the very best PF/C rebounders would get more than 6 per game in 26 min, especially as a rookie. The fundamentals you mentioned earlier are (obvious) reasons why he's not yet are excellent rebounder. The team rebounding issue is an old one not worth revisiting IMO. If you say the team is a bad rebounding team that just happens to out-rebound its opponents in about 80% of the games, then fine. I agree with you about Lee and would like to see him start or at least play around 24 mpg.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-10-2006 3:55 PM]
Allanfan20
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8/10/2006  9:47 PM
Bonn, maybe numbers wise we get rebounds, but look at what happens during the course of the game, and you'll see how Frye has a ton of trouble boxing anyone out. Most of his rebounds are ones that come directly to his hands. And sometimes he'll grab those and people will knock them out of his hands. He does try but his base strength is really weak and he doesn't assert himself enough b/c of that. He gets pushed around a lot. Have you seen him guard guys like Kenny Thomas? It looks ugly when he's up against them.

His D is different. He works hard on that though, but he got totally lost at times. Didn't know where to be, didn't know what the angles were. All that. I'll give you that performance against Bosh though, when he got injured. He played much better D that game.
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technomaster
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8/10/2006  10:23 PM
Over 36 minutes (fairly typical starter minutes), his rookie numbers project to about 18ppg, 9rpg, and 1bpg... plus a relatively low 2.25 TOs.

Frye's signature skill from last season was his pure shooting stroke from the elbow-- the reason people are so excited by Frye is that he already has mastered Duncan's signature. In that aspect, he's about as good as any big man in the NBA. What will define him over the next decade is how he refines his other skills-- he seems a little behind Duncan in every other category at the same stage of their careers-- but hey, Duncan's an incredible once in a generation player, we all know that. Another prominent big man, Dirk Nowitzki, took a few years to develop into the superstar he is now - and relatively speaking, Frye is probably a little ahead of where Dirk was w/ comparable NBA experience.

Strictly based on numbers, Frye's rebounding is pretty solid - roughly on par with Amare and Stoudemire and way ahead of the pace of Nowitzki. Stoudemire, in his fantastic 2nd and 3rd seasons, averaged just under 9rpg in just over 36mpg--- that's the same pace as Frye's-- in a faster paced offense. In his 2nd season, Dirk averaged 6.5 rpg in just under 36mpg, far below Frye's rate.

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tomverve
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8/11/2006  12:18 AM
Posted by fishmike:

It just kills me when Tom or whoever else throws out stats that supposedly prove we are a good rebounding team, then night in and out I'm watching Curry, Frye and whoever else get pushed off the glass. Its a need, you cant watch the games and tell me its not a need.

Actually we were one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the NBA last season (4th). On the defensive boards, we were in the middle of the pack (13th). So yeah, we could use a little more beef on the defensive boards maybe, but it's not a glaring weakness. Much more important to this season's success will be tightening up the D and reducing turnovers.

As for Frye in particular-- he rebounds pretty well for a guy who supposedly sucks at it. If Frye is really as awful as you say he is and still manages to pull in boards at the rate he does, then he'd probably be one of the best rebounders in the league if his technique were to pass your standards. Bottom line is that even if he's just getting by on length and athleticism and doesn't have the technique down, it's still good enough to put up decent rebounding production for a PF. And production is all that matters. Doesn't matter how pretty your jumper looks if it never goes in, or how ugly it looks if it always goes in.

I really don't see where Frye is being overrated. Of course comparisons to Duncan are way overstated, but does anyone really that those seriously? Frye is going to be very good, and this is something all Knicks fans can be confident about. Curry I'm not so sure about, Marbury/Francis I'm not so sure about, but Frye is money in the bank.
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TheGame
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8/11/2006  6:36 AM
I think Fyre's rebounding will improve with age and strength development. It is obvious to me that he tries and realizes that he needs to be a rebounding force. He seems to be good offensive rebounder. It is on the defensive end that he struggles. He will never be a Charles Oakley, but with practice, strength conditioning, and a few more pounds, I think he will become a solid rebounder. Fyre has the potential to be a very good power forward for us, and given his drive, I see no reason that he will not reach that potential.
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fishmike
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8/11/2006  8:01 AM
Tom... do you tune into games? I mean if I want to know where we rank in the league I can look it up. When you watched Knick games (if you did) do you come away thinking, wow.. Frye is a solid rebounder, or that we really own the glass?
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Bonn1997
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8/11/2006  8:14 AM
As for Frye in particular-- he rebounds pretty well for a guy who supposedly sucks at it. If Frye is really as awful as you say he is and still manages to pull in boards at the rate he does, then he'd probably be one of the best rebounders in the league if his technique were to pass your standards.
That was a better way of wording what I was trying to say. You know you've won the argument when the only thing the other person can say is, "Dude, do you watch the games?"
tomverve
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8/11/2006  9:13 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Tom... do you tune into games? I mean if I want to know where we rank in the league I can look it up. When you watched Knick games (if you did) do you come away thinking, wow.. Frye is a solid rebounder, or that we really own the glass?


If I didn't watch the games, there wouldn't be much of a point for me to follow the team.

The problem with basing judgments solely on personal observation is that what you see and what you remember seeing is not a vintage record of what really happened. Rather, it's more a reflection of how what really happened interacted with the assumptions, preconceived notions, and various cognitive biases that you brought to the table while watching it. That doesn't just go for you, it goes for everyone. It's unavoidable.

Case in point-- if you remember seeing Frye getting badly outpositioned on the boards on a number of occassions, you are prone to magnifying this flaw in your mind and generalizing it unjustly to Frye as a rebounder in general over the whole season. But if you look at what actually happened in terms of Frye's rebounding production, you will find that your perceptions were a bit warped from the reality of the situation. Frye's rebounding was not as bad as you say it was, and this is something we can check and agree upon without controversy. Faced with a conflict between your idiosyncratic perceptions and the actual data, you might want to bite the bullet and say you're right the data is wrong-- but of course, if everyone thought like that, we'd never have gotten out of the dark ages.
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fishmike
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8/11/2006  9:18 AM
Tom, I didn't ask for a thesis on the problems stemming from basing judgements on personal observation. I asked you a question. I will ask it again....

When you watched Knick games do you come away thinking, wow.. Frye is a solid rebounder, or that we really own the glass?
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fishmike
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8/11/2006  9:21 AM
CasFaced with a conflict between your idiosyncratic perceptions
at least I offer some. All you do is regurgitate #s from the internet.

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