funny how things change for knick fans.

if a player who looks lost, uncomfortable, out of position, slow although he has just finished 4 years of major CBB, flurries air balls from the FL and from a few other court angles, shows very little in terms of running the team----its just summer league it means nothing, but were ready to annoit you our starting PG job in the NBA. So if you play good in SL, you sck and that guarantees to translate over to the nBA, but if you show bad play and some poor physical signs you are read y to step in and start in the big show


Travis Diener> Mardy Collins

only in NY!

Collins will be fine, Briggs. I'd like to see him get time, but I don't want him starting yet. He does have a head for the game - but I'm basing that off his Temple days more than his summer league performance. he did start to look more comfortable as the games went on.

I would love to ditch Francis. I still think Zeke is going to try something with him... we'll see.

Posted by crzymdups:

I love how folks are saying Collins moves like cement... every result in the draft combine shows him to be faster than Marcus Williams. Weird, huh?

let me see what i can write to counter the obvious---ah-ha collins tested a better athlete than williams--forget that Williams showed star basketball abilities in the last year from the NCCA tourney to the SL -mardy is faster! jumps higher too!

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by crzymdups:

I love how folks are saying Collins moves like cement... every result in the draft combine shows him to be faster than Marcus Williams. Weird, huh?

let me see what i can write to counter the obvious---ah-ha collins tested a better athlete than williams--forget that Williams showed star basketball abilities in the last year from the NCCA tourney to the SL -mardy is faster! jumps higher too!

Collins showed plenty of basketball ability too - but you're criticizing the man's ability as an athlete. Collins finished 33rd in the combine. Marcus finished 73rd. Collins can jump a full foot higher than Marcus. He can run down court .15 seconds faster. he bench pressed 9times, Marcus benched 4 times. Collins was also the leader of the Temple team and thought to be a lotto pick as recently as February 06. He's a good athlete and a good player.

But if we're talking about foot speed, maybe Marcus should lay off the jelly donuts and hit the gym first.

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by kNYks342:

whats funny is mardy didnt even play pg in sl, nate did and walker russell played backup, the only reason he started is becuase there was no other 2 gaurd on the team besides fumutimi. Mardy was lost, had no clue what to do on the court not only that i didnt see one play where he created for another teammate, all i saw was he would get the ball at the top of the key pass to nate in the corner and then cut to the hoop or stand around, he is a terrible terrible shooter who will airball 5/6 shots and you want to start him. ocme on guys get real, if the team is gonna run you cant have cement shoes trying to bring the ball up. mardy collins wont even crack the bench this season he's nowhere close.

So because the coaching staff was seeing if Nate could iniate the offense, Collins sucks? huh?

no, but collins was playing of his normal position at SG and that would make him a LOT move ineffective. Makes sense.

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by martin:

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by kNYks342:

whats funny is mardy didnt even play pg in sl, nate did and walker russell played backup, the only reason he started is becuase there was no other 2 gaurd on the team besides fumutimi. Mardy was lost, had no clue what to do on the court not only that i didnt see one play where he created for another teammate, all i saw was he would get the ball at the top of the key pass to nate in the corner and then cut to the hoop or stand around, he is a terrible terrible shooter who will airball 5/6 shots and you want to start him. ocme on guys get real, if the team is gonna run you cant have cement shoes trying to bring the ball up. mardy collins wont even crack the bench this season he's nowhere close.

So because the coaching staff was seeing if Nate could iniate the offense, Collins sucks? huh?

no, but collins was playing of his normal position at SG and that would make him a LOT move ineffective. Makes sense.

Collins is here as a defender. He's playing PG the way McKie or Snow did in PHI. When Larry did that it was pure genius, remember? Whatever the case, we need more guys who can be effective without the ball in their hands and Collins is one of those guys. He did look nervous at first out there, but he played much better the last three games. He also ran more of a PG the last game against Washington and had 7 assists in 21 minutes. But I think his real value at 6'6" 220lbs is going to be a guy who can guard the bigger guards for us.

I agree. I want to see Mardy playing alongside Francis, Nate or Jamal.

Posted by martin:

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by kNYks342:

whats funny is mardy didnt even play pg in sl, nate did and walker russell played backup, the only reason he started is becuase there was no other 2 gaurd on the team besides fumutimi. Mardy was lost, had no clue what to do on the court not only that i didnt see one play where he created for another teammate, all i saw was he would get the ball at the top of the key pass to nate in the corner and then cut to the hoop or stand around, he is a terrible terrible shooter who will airball 5/6 shots and you want to start him. ocme on guys get real, if the team is gonna run you cant have cement shoes trying to bring the ball up. mardy collins wont even crack the bench this season he's nowhere close.

So because the coaching staff was seeing if Nate could iniate the offense, Collins sucks? huh?

no, but collins was playing of his normal position at SG and that would make him a LOT move ineffective. Makes sense.

Collins is a pure tweener he was a scoring G at Temple only played PG at times kind of like randy foye.. its an excuse to say he is out of position hes a guard plays 1-2 and he did a pirse poor job of it against talent of the *same* caliber. he needs to develop i thought thats why they made the nbdl i mean julius hodge was there last year and julius is better than collins. teams should use the nbdl Jackie B was better for it playing 40 minutes a night learn how to shoot, get a feel for the speed, learn how to run a team at a higher level

Posted by crzymdups:



Collins showed plenty of basketball ability too - but you're criticizing the man's ability as an athlete. Collins finished 33rd in the combine. Marcus finished 73rd. Collins can jump a full foot higher than Marcus. He can run down court .15 seconds faster. he bench pressed 9times, Marcus benched 4 times. Collins was also the leader of the Temple team and thought to be a lotto pick as recently as February 06. He's a good athlete and a good player.

But if we're talking about foot speed, maybe Marcus should lay off the jelly donuts and hit the gym first.

What is with you and these smokescreens you love to pull? PER Ratings, Combines, footspeed. Who really cares what those are, if you watched college basketball you would know that Marcus Williams was the best PG in the draft, lightyears ahead of Mardy Collins. Do you think anyone cares if Mardy can life more than Marcus Williams? I bet Marcus Williams won't have any trouble lifting the NBA Finals trophy when he brings a team there sooner than Collins.

Marcus Williams was the orchestrator for 2 years on a very good UConn team and showed how well he can run a team with his passing ability and playmaking. I love Collins, but lets not get carried away here. The reason you like him is because Zeke drafted him.

PS - I love when I mention stats its a "smokescreen." do you want to know what Lebron James' PER is? because it's pretty freaking great. I only mentioned the combine because it specifically measures the things Briggs and others were saying Mardy Collins didn't have.

Posted by crzymdups:



I watch plenty of college bball. I don't follow any one team religiously, but I saw Uconn play plenty of times living in NY. Marcus is a good point guard, but he was often playing teams that had little to no NBA talent and he racked up plenty of turnovers in the process. To me, he is a good not great scoring point guard - not too different than Crawford or Marbury, but with a long way to go as far as turnovers and conditioning.

I just don't think I agree with the sentiment that Marcus played inferior competetion. Villanova (Foye, Ray, Lowery) Syracuse(McNamara) Lousiville(Dean) Kentucky(Rondo) Notre Dame(Qinn/Falls) Pitt(Krauser) LSU(Mitchell)

Look at Marcus' last game against Chicago - which I notice Briggs didn't make a thread about -
http://www.nba.com/media/magic/NetsBulls071406.pdf

Marcus - 27pts 11-15fg 3ast 6turnovers 0steals

the Nets lost by 15 to the Bulls, Josh Boone didn't even get a FG attempt, Marcus shot more than anyone on the team, led the team in turnovers. is that a pure PG? not in my book.

What I don't get is that when I criticize Frye for having a poor game and gets pushed around in the summer, people always say, it's only summerleague and I'm pretty sure that you were one of those people who was saying that.

if you look at his numbers in March during Uconn's tournament run - he took a lot of shots and scored 20ppg a lot while averaging 8apg and 4turnovers. he's another guy who scores. he can run a team, but with all those turnovers he clearly has a ways to go. I think he's a bad fit for the team, he replicates what Marbury and Crawford do. people who say, oh just waive Marbury, blah blah blah are being completely unrealistic. and let's be honest, Marbury is a better player than Marcus Williams. by a lot.

The problem with this logic is that Marcus was asked to score becuase the teams primary scoring option wasn't performing the way he should(Rudy Gay) so Marcus had to start scoring more. What makes Marbury a better player than Marcus Williams? Steph is not a better passer, he can score more, they are probably even defensively, I would say that Marcus knows how to run a offense better based on him running UConn's offense at deep into NCAA tourneys.

I just don't think I can agree with your idea that Marcus isn't that good. I understand you are happy with what was drafted but let's be real, Marcus Williams was the real PG prospect in this draft and the Nets were quite happy to snatch him up and thats Rod Thorn who has won Excecutive of the Year more than once I believe.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-19-2006 2:19 PM]

I just don't think I agree with the sentiment that Marcus played inferior competetion. Villanova (Foye, Ray, Lowery) Syracuse(McNamara) Lousiville(Dean) Kentucky(Rondo) Notre Dame(Qinn/Falls) Pitt(Krauser) LSU(Mitchell)

I misspoke, what I meant was that Uconn had a stacked roster and pretty much always had the greater number of NBA prospects on the court - which makes it a lot easier to succeed as a PG.

What I don't get is that when I criticize Frye for having a poor game and gets pushed around in the summer, people always say, it's only summerleague and I'm pretty sure that you were one of those people who was saying that.

I thought Frye was a good fit for the team and I think it's important not to make too much of SL stats - I was referencing the fact that we got a thread about Marcus' best game in the SL where he looked great, but not about his other games which weren't nearly as good. I think SL gives you an idea of how the play will translate, but you shouldn't look too closely at the stats - still, turnovers are turnovers and Marcus is a high turnover player.

The problem with this logic is that Marcus was asked to score becuase the teams primary scoring option wasn't performing the way he should(Rudy Gay) so Marcus had to start scoring more. What makes Marbury a better player than Marcus Williams? He's not a better passer, he can score more, probably even defensively, I would say that Marcus knows how to run a offense better based on him running UConn's offense at deep into NCAA tourneys.

First of all, Uconn lost to a 11th seed in the elite eight and everyone in the country thought it was a disappointing tournie run for them.

What makes Marbury a better player than Marcus Williams is that he is unstoppable on the pick and roll and a better passed, quicker, faster, better conditioned. If you think that Marcus Williams is a better prospect than Marbury was coming out, or is a better player now - I'm sorry, that's just not true. Marbury came in and averaged 18ppg 9apg right off the bat as a 19yr old rookie. Please, it's embarassing to put Marcus in the same league as Marbury. Marbury's rookie season was on a par with Chris Paul's.

edit:
hey, look at that, according to Basketball Reference.com, most similar player at age 20 to Chris Paul is Stephon Marbury.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html


[Edited by - crzymdups on 19-07-2006 2:30 PM]