Posted by JUNKMEIN:

Posted by franco12:

Posted by joec32033:



I'd put money down that if you offered he Nets fo the 22 and 23 to take Marcus at 20 they would have bit.

Actually- if you had promised them Marcus & our 29 pick- I bet they would have gone for it.

I don't know how it's possible that either side of this argument can be so proof positive certain than any of the players between 20 and 29 are even gonna be in the league in 5 years. All of it is pure speculation as to who's gonna do what and what value Player (A) has in relation to Player (B) and where they both were selected.

Nobody here has a crystal ball (the numerous ballheads notwithstanding)

I could care less where Balkman was selected if he can do what he did during SL. I could care even less...like not at all...what Marcus Williams does because he's a Net (and i'll deal with that when they get down the street). That's presupposing either kid is in the league in 5 years...WE DON"T KNOW.

Isiah has made some questionable choices as GM (JJ being the biggest boo boo) imo. The LB decision was an honest mistake as who knew (Detroit did) that Larry had been inhaling his own smoke.

Hey, if Balkman is a Baller worthy of the kind of heat his selection has generated. I'm A OTAY with it.

At this point it is all hypothetical. But you can make inferences based on what happened. The Nets couldn't get Stern on the podium fast enough with their picks.

Once again Renaldo looks like a Bruce Bowen-ish/Extremely poor homeless man's version of Spree. I am happy we have him but we could have made out better, I have no doubt about that.

Can you realistically disagree with the fact that this wasn't a good value pick?

I'm not gonna agree or disagree with it. Like very few people here, I have no problem admitting that I have too little experience watching Balkman play to reach an educated opinion on that issue.

Posted by rvhoss:

In one single post FISH...

1. pulls the race card
2. brings up JJ
3. personally attacks another poster
4. bashes the knicks

That's gotta be a record.

this is about the time martin yells at ME for pointing this out to everybody.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by rvhoss:

looks like fish will suddenly embrace balkman.

yea, since a white guy (1) liked him he must me good right? Contrary to your idiotic (3) beliefs I only root for whats best for the franchise. Why dont you tell me again how we NEEDED Jerome James (2) and about Mo Taylor's renaissance.

Once again for those not on Bonn's PHD reading level my beef was never with the player but the draft as a whole. We wasted a draft pick. The only was Collins sees playing is if a car with the 5 guards ahead of him in the rotation flys off a cliff (4).

[Edited by - rvhoss on 07-16-2006 09:58 AM]

its not a personal attack if its true

Posted by rvhoss:

In one single post FISH...

1. pulls the race card
2. brings up JJ
3. personally attacks another poster
4. bashes the knicks

That's gotta be a record.

this is about the time martin yells at ME for pointing this out to everybody.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by rvhoss:

looks like fish will suddenly embrace balkman.

yea, since a white guy (1) liked him he must me good right? Contrary to your idiotic (3) beliefs I only root for whats best for the franchise. Why dont you tell me again how we NEEDED Jerome James (2) and about Mo Taylor's renaissance.

Once again for those not on Bonn's PHD reading level my beef was never with the player but the draft as a whole. We wasted a draft pick. The only was Collins sees playing is if a car with the 5 guards ahead of him in the rotation flys off a cliff (4).

[Edited by - rvhoss on 07-16-2006 09:58 AM]

I don't know how I missed this post the first time but I've gotta give you credit RV for a good work of art!

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Originally posted by Solace:

Nope. The problem with Balkman was never the player, but the position. If we took M. Williams with the #20 and took Balkman with the #29, nobody has too much of an issue.

Just giving you a hard time. If you didn't mean it when you said no one would have any issue with Balkman taken @ 29, fine.

Because, again, that's not quite what I said. I bolded the key words for you. [Edited by - Solace on 07-16-2006 7:23 PM]

"much" vs "any"; And you've said that I nitpick! hmmmmmmm

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Originally posted by Solace:

Nope. The problem with Balkman was never the player, but the position. If we took M. Williams with the #20 and took Balkman with the #29, nobody has too much of an issue.

Just giving you a hard time. If you didn't mean it when you said no one would have any issue with Balkman taken @ 29, fine.

Because, again, that's not quite what I said. I bolded the key words for you. [Edited by - Solace on 07-16-2006 7:23 PM]

"much" vs "any"; And you've said that I nitpick! hmmmmmmm

Yes you do. The above was an example.

[Edited by - Solace on 07-16-2006 8:03 PM]

I get blamed for YOUR nitpicking! I love ya (not like *that*!) but you logic seems quite bizarre!

Well, are you saying that picking Wallace over Ilgauskas was an even bigger mistake than the Knicks picking Balkman over Williams? In any event, numbers produced overseas (and college) often do not translate to big #s at the NBA level.

Anyway, the Knicks were faced by a difficult choice once again when they drafted Weis over the dropping Artest - tho to be fair, Artest was supposed to be a mid-first rounder, not a lottery pick. In this case, the Knicks made the wrong decision (again). Artest would have been the far more popular pick that night, and undoubtedly the better pick years down the road. Pre-injury, Weis looked to have incredible upside. In spite of everything said about him and in spite of a crippling back injury, he still has managed to carve out a pretty solid career in Europe.

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by technomaster:

Going back in time to the year the Knicks had 3 first rounders and chose Wallace, McCarty, and Dontae' Jones... the Knicks were sucked into taking Wallace even though he wasn't even part of the plan.

The guy they really wanted (1 pick later) was Ilgauskas... but he was gone.

It's sometimes a tough choice to pick between the guy you've targetted all along vs surprise who dropped on draft night.

John Wallace's value eventually netted us Chris Dudley. While he fit the need for a defensive big man to spell Ewing, Big Z is by far the more potent offensive player and is about as close to being a franchise center w/o actually being one. And to be honest, he had his fair share of seasons lost to injury (broken feet).

Amazingly similiar situations, but there is a major difference. Ilgauskis was a dominant player in Lithuania.

MISCELLANEOUS CAREER: Was an early entry candidate for the 1996 NBA Draft...applied for early entry into the 1995 NBA Draft, then withdrew prior to the Draft...did not play basketball during the 1995-96 season while rehabilitating from a broken right foot...in the 1994-95 season, played for Atletas Basketball Club in his hometown of Kaunas, Lithuania...played in 36 games, averaging 20.3 ppg, 12.8 rpg and 2.8 bpg in 30.3 mpg...shot 60 percent from the field and 68 percent from the free-throw line...led the league in rebounding, was second in blocked shots, third in field goal percentage and sixth in scoring...on Nov. 22, 1994 played with the Lithuanian National team against the University of Kentucky at Rupp Arena...was the game's leading scorer with 26 points on 11-21 FG and 4-6 FT...also pulled down a game-high 19 rebounds (9 offensive) and had a game-high 4 blocks...in the TENDEX rating system which is used to rate overall performance in the league, Ilgauskas finished second with a .904 rating.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/zydrunas_ilgauskas/bio.html

He averaged 20 and almost 13.

Well, are you saying that picking Wallace over Ilgauskas was an even bigger mistake than the Knicks picking Balkman over Williams? In any event, numbers produced overseas (and college) often do not translate to big #s at the NBA level.

No. You made the assertion that this was like taking Wallace-the big name college player-over the player that the Knicks wanted or needed-Z(at least that is what I got out of it-let me know if I am wrong). I got that you were saying the Knicks tried taking the big name college player(in this case Marcus) over the player they really wanted(Balkman) and that the bigger name college player doesn't always work out.

I agree, I just pointed out in this comparison that WHile Wallace was the big name player, Z was a dokminant force in Lithuania. In the Case of Marcus-Balkman, yes Marcus is the big name player, but as a parallel to passing up Z, it holds little water because Balkman is 1/2 the player Z was in Lithuania (Z averaged like 21 and 13, Balkman averaged 9 and 6).

Anyway, the Knicks were faced by a difficult choice once again when they drafted Weis over the dropping Artest - tho to be fair, Artest was supposed to be a mid-first rounder, not a lottery pick. In this case, the Knicks made the wrong decision (again). Artest would have been the far more popular pick that night, and undoubtedly the better pick years down the road. Pre-injury, Weis looked to have incredible upside. In spite of everything said about him and in spite of a crippling back injury, he still has managed to carve out a pretty solid career in Europe.

Here's the thing. Weis never came over here o we have no idea how he would have worked out. Milos(just bringing up his name as a comparison) was the same, but if I remember, Milos was a 2nd round pick. My philosophy on the draft is not to waste picks...pick the surest thing you can-make the most of your pick. I almost shat myself when they picked Weis over Artest. It's like how you ask your father where he was when they walked on the moon? Me, I'll always remember where I was when they picked Weis over Artest.

There is no philosophy when it comes to taking need over BPA. No proven system. Personally I would choose the players that has the best chance of long term success unless I am a championship contender where this guy will put me over the top.

sometimes drafting for need doesn't work (Frederic Weiss over Ron Artest)... sometimes drafting the "best player available" & ignoring team needs doesn't work either (Sweetney over Josh Howard)... the draft is always a crap shoot that can't be fully judged until you see how these guys actually perform on the NBA level.