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MS
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7/14/2006  12:41 PM
20 Marcus Williams
29 Balkman is there

So why is this even a thread, it was a terrible move by Isiah, Collins is not all that impressive in SL where player are fringe talents at best, the Knicks have the best players on the floor in nearly every game they played......

Marcus get people easy buckets none of our pgs get easy baskets, its business you take an asset let that asset improve its value and you sell it for better talent or try to make a move with another player who is harder to move that needs a pg......

I bet Villeneuva could have been had for Nate and Bulter or Williams and Butler, and then maybe you could move a Francis with Charlie and a future pick to get the team moving in the right direction and clearing unwanted dollars and players......

No one hates Balkman he is doing some nice things and looks like a rotation player and perhaps a starter down the road.....
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oohah
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7/14/2006  12:42 PM
our opportunity cost (the difference between what we did and the most attractive alternative) could be as high as a first round pick. as in, we pick marcus. some team with only a second rounder and a hole at the PG calls us up desperate. we trade marcus for balkman (picked in the mid 2nd round) and maybe a future #1. if marcus is really lottery talent, it's not that farfetched.

The problem is the "cost" in this case is wholly imaginary. For instance, this hypothetical trade scenario you proposed may or may not be possible. Perhaps the team that does pick Balkman does not need a PG or they fall in love with Balkman once they see him play. Maybe the team will trade Balkman for Williams but after they see Balkman is better than they realize, they are the ones asking us to throw in the pick?

Then the Knicks are stuck with this Rick Brunson clone Williams.

At that point, who is the one being cost by missed opportunity?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 07-14-2006 12:46 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
martin
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7/14/2006  12:43 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

I'd take joe dumars, but hey, he's black, doesn't qualify for your list.

no need for this kind of talk RV.
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Pharzeone
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7/14/2006  12:44 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

our opportunity cost (the difference between what we did and the most attractive alternative) could be as high as a first round pick. as in, we pick marcus. some team with only a second rounder and a hole at the PG calls us up desperate. we trade marcus for balkman (picked in the mid 2nd round) and maybe a future #1. if marcus is really lottery talent, it's not that farfetched.

to be fair, IT probably gets slammed either way, either for passing on or trading away marcus. at least this way he has another pick to play with. unless he knows he's gone this summer and doesn't care

Please explain your possibility when the player that you believes has the high quality was ALLOWED to drop to low value status. You guys keep trying to ignore that. He got passed over. Teams that worked him out said no thanks. Didn't contact anyone to my knowledge or that of anyone in the press since I didn't hear any noise about. We can always speculate but unless you provide the name of a GM or team that said "man, we missed out on Marcus Williams and we really tried so hard to move to get him." then you are grasping at straws.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Solace
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7/14/2006  12:49 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Masterplan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

our opportunity cost (the difference between what we did and the most attractive alternative) could be as high as a first round pick. as in, we pick marcus. some team with only a second rounder and a hole at the PG calls us up desperate. we trade marcus for balkman (picked in the mid 2nd round) and maybe a future #1. if marcus is really lottery talent, it's not that farfetched.

to be fair, IT probably gets slammed either way, either for passing on or trading away marcus. at least this way he has another pick to play with. unless he knows he's gone this summer and doesn't care

Please explain your possibility when the player that you believes has the high quality was ALLOWED to drop to low value status. You guys keep trying to ignore that. He got passed over. Teams that worked him out said no thanks. Didn't contact anyone to my knowledge or that of anyone in the press since I didn't hear any noise about. We can always speculate but unless you provide the name of a GM or team that said "man, we missed out on Marcus Williams and we really tried so hard to move to get him." then you are grasping at straws.

Some of those teams didn't work him out because they never suspected he'd fall that low. Furthermore, some teams had guarantees in place with the players they took, because they never believed Marcus would slip. It's not nearly as black and white as you make it sound. Marcus got some bad press right before the draft because of his body weight, and the few teams that actually had a shot at him had second thoughts, okay... those teams also screwed up. Nobody is saying it was only the Knicks who screwed up. But we're not fans of those teams.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Pharzeone
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7/14/2006  12:58 PM
Solace, my point is where is the other team coming from that was going to offer the Knicks a 1st round pick for Williams then. They didn't like him. Why would they say yeah btw, here's a 1st round pick for a guy we weren't interested in. Also, I didn't hear any news that teams were jocking for position to get the guy. Also please don't give me that stuff about guarantees between teams and players. If you ask players and their agents approximately 45 players get 1st round guarantees every draft. Someone is lying. So let me get this straight. If Shaq is not selected by the Magic, he drops out of the lottery because teams made guarantees. Sorry Shaq we would have selected you but we made that promise to Walt Williams.
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metra
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7/14/2006  1:12 PM
Phare,

I'm not sure whether Marcus is clearly better than Balk or if he fits into our system behind the glut of guards. The consensus on that will have to wait till the All-Star break (or maybe even the sophomore year).

But I will say that your logic is a little flawed. With each passing pick, the the cost of getting Marcus drops. If the teams at spots 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 pass on a player, does that mean that the #10 team has to pass on him, too? At some point, the price of Marcus will equal the cost of that pick.

A radical example to demonstrate my point: If Marcus falls all the way to 60, would you still not pick him up because teams 1 through 59 didn't take him? To say that we shouldn't get Marcus because team ~11 through 19 didn't pick him up definitely has some merit, but it can't be the sole reason of why we shouldn't have gotten him.
newyorknewyork
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7/14/2006  1:15 PM
I think it all came down to Isiah valueing Collins more than Williams because of his size, defense, & ability to run the point. Which compliments guys like Marbury-Franchis-Nate-Crawford. & he took Balkman at 20 because he was scared that the Suns were going to snatch him up.

If he never felt that Balkman wasn't going to get snatched up. He probably would have take Collins at 20 & Balkman at 29. And in Isiah's eyes Collins & Williams were both projected lottery picks at one time who slipped for what ever reason.

Isiah also said his plan during the last summer league game. Which was to have the system(ucla, bob knight, triangle, all mixed together) allow everyone to get involved and get touches. All everyone has to do is read and react. Rather than have one person create for everyone. Which is what makes Williams stand out. But if we are going to have a read an react system then Marbury & Franchise are deadly to. So we could settle for having Marbury & Franchise run the point in Isiah's system and also add defense by adding Collins & Balkman. For Isiah's system Collins & Balkman fit in perfectly, and they provide very good defense.

So Isiah brought in 2 guys he coverted & felt would excell in his system, compliment his other players, and provide great defense. If they do just that then he did a good job. As long as he has a plan on how is system is going to be. And he acquires players that fit that system and will excell in it. I can't complain to much.
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Pharzeone
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7/14/2006  1:30 PM
Posted by metra:

Phare,

I'm not sure whether Marcus is clearly better than Balk or if he fits into our system behind the glut of guards. The consensus on that will have to wait till the All-Star break (or maybe even the sophomore year).

But I will say that your logic is a little flawed. With each passing pick, the the cost of getting Marcus drops. If the teams at spots 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 pass on a player, does that mean that the #10 team has to pass on him, too? At some point, the price of Marcus will equal the cost of that pick.

A radical example to demonstrate my point: If Marcus falls all the way to 60, would you still not pick him up because teams 1 through 59 didn't take him? To say that we shouldn't get Marcus because team ~11 through 19 didn't pick him up definitely has some merit, but it can't be the sole reason of why we shouldn't have gotten him.

But Metra, the point has been made, that even if you don't want Williams other teams would have offered you a better deal in a trade for him. All I ask is support that. There is no logic at all. Show me the team that was willing to trade up to get him, who was killing the Knicks to make a trade for their spot. Here's the thing, Williams was not value high by many GMs or they would have taken him. Not a complex thing to really think about. The issue is will they all be wrong later on. It happens, its a draft.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
nyballer
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7/14/2006  1:47 PM
Posted by oohah:

I don't understand the question. Let me restate my point. To say "we could have picked Balkman later" or "We overpaid for him" is dubious. If he is picked 20 or 40 it doesn't matter. What matters is if one is able to pick the player they want when they have their chance.

So if the raptors picked a PG like marcus williams or rondo with pick #1 and they turned out to be solid players, that would be okay because they got a good player with their pick? the key is to maximize what you get with your picks

"easy like sunday morning..." - walt clyde
oohah
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7/14/2006  1:55 PM
So if the raptors picked a PG like marcus williams or rondo with pick #1 and they turned out to be solid players, that would be okay because they got a good player with their pick?

The comparison is not apt. Totally different situation. Uncomparable.

You have to get the best player that you want AND hope that he turns out to be a good player.

the key is to maximize what you get with your picks

Are you still referring to the scenario where the Knicks pick Williams then someone else trades for him so we have a better pick next year?

You have the key wrong. The key is to get the best player you want on your team with your pick. Not the best player who has absolutely no spot on your team in order to trade for some unforseen player next year. Other than that I don't see how picking some guy who will be #5 on the depth chart of his position on your team is maximizing anything.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 07-14-2006 1:56 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
nyballer
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7/14/2006  2:02 PM
Bargnani was behind bosh, villanueva for the raptors - their two most valuable assets. and they moved villanueva for a point guard and now they're in great shape. if we pick williams and balkman we can trade one of our point guards preferably francis or marbury and we'd have a better foundation for the future with a pass-first point guard that'll get other people involved. mardy collins won't get to play this year- we might as well have drafted williams and balkman because at least williams is capable of running a team in the future or now if the opportunity to dump one or more of of our "point guards" arises
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oohah
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7/14/2006  2:04 PM
Posted by nyballer:

Bargnani was behind bosh, villanueva for the raptors - their two most valuable assets. and they moved villanueva for a point guard and now they're in great shape. if we pick williams and balkman we can trade one of our point guards preferably francis or marbury and we'd have a better foundation for the future with a pass-first point guard that'll get other people involved. mardy collins won't get to play this year- we might as well have drafted williams and balkman because at least williams is capable of running a team in the future or now if the opportunity to dump one or more of of our "point guards" arises



That actually makes sense as a reason to draft Williams and hope that Balkman is still on the board at 29. The only reason I disagree with you is that I think Williams is way overrated.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
NYKBocker
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7/14/2006  2:08 PM
Posted by nyballer:

Bargnani was behind bosh, villanueva for the raptors - their two most valuable assets. and they moved villanueva for a point guard and now they're in great shape. if we pick williams and balkman we can trade one of our point guards preferably francis or marbury and we'd have a better foundation for the future with a pass-first point guard that'll get other people involved. mardy collins won't get to play this year- we might as well have drafted williams and balkman because at least williams is capable of running a team in the future or now if the opportunity to dump one or more of of our "point guards" arises


Too many supposed PGs in our stable to draft Williams. I am actually OK with not picking Williams just for the fact that I trust Zekes eye for talent. Also, how about the other teams that picked before us? Why didn't they pick Marcus Williams if he was so good?

Mardy was a good pick. We needed a long defensive minded PG that can be teamed with what we have now. Scratch Franbury and you have Jamal and Nate at the helm. They would still need a running partner that can defend the other teams SG.
nyballer
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7/14/2006  2:10 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by nyballer:

Bargnani was behind bosh, villanueva for the raptors - their two most valuable assets. and they moved villanueva for a point guard and now they're in great shape. if we pick williams and balkman we can trade one of our point guards preferably francis or marbury and we'd have a better foundation for the future with a pass-first point guard that'll get other people involved. mardy collins won't get to play this year- we might as well have drafted williams and balkman because at least williams is capable of running a team in the future or now if the opportunity to dump one or more of of our "point guards" arises



That actually makes sense as a reason to draft Williams and hope that Balkman is still on the board at 29. The only reason I disagree with you is that I think Williams is way overrated.

oohah

Well if that's the case that's understandable. The point I was trying to make is that if you have 2 picks and there's a guy who is the BPA and there's a position guy who will be around for both picks (from d'antoni's comments and general consensus this seems to be the case), it makes sense to take the BPA first and then balkman. If you don't think he's that good, then it's understandable not to want to take him at 20 or to take him at all for that matter.
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oohah
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7/14/2006  2:16 PM
Well if that's the case that's understandable. The point I was trying to make is that if you have 2 picks and there's a guy who is the BPA and there's a position guy who will be around for both picks (from d'antoni's comments and general consensus this seems to be the case), it makes sense to take the BPA first and then balkman. If you don't think he's that good, then it's understandable not to want to take him at 20 or to take him at all for that matter.

Yes, I wanted Williams not at all.

I am a strong believer in BPA when you are talking star talent. When the choice is less clear cut I think drafting by need is better.

oohah

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Solace
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7/14/2006  2:26 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

If Shaq is not selected by the Magic, he drops out of the lottery because teams made guarantees. Sorry Shaq we would have selected you but we made that promise to Walt Williams.

Ok, so you're saying you're a man who goes back on your word?

Thanks for the tidbit.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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7/14/2006  2:50 PM
oohah - there are some who want it both ways.

They want both ... a cohesive roster AND they want the best available talent.

Drafting Williams was a sexy choice to be certain, but no one has raked Donnie Walsh of the Pacers over the coals for passing on him... Isiah is the idiot.

The fun thing about Balkman is the apparent speed and intensity he brings to the floor. The reports of his sketchy handle were greatly exaggerated as he has shown the aboity to rebound and immediately turn up the court.

No, he is NOT the messiah.. but an effective missing piece... in the spirit of Manu Ginobili (witout the jumper of course) or our dearly departed and formerly-beloved energizer bunny Latrell Sprewell.

In te immortal words of Eric B and Rakim... Renaldo has the ability to...

"move the crowd"



once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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7/14/2006  3:33 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by rvhoss:

I'd take joe dumars, but hey, he's black, doesn't qualify for your list.

no need for this kind of talk RV.
and out come the true colors.. good job RV

oohah, its clear you dont like Marcus Williams or value his game one bit. Thats fine, its your opinion. But you said yourself your not a big believer in BPA when your not dealing with star players. So explain Collins then. Do you really believe the Suns (who Balkman didnt even work out for) were going to take him before 30? Because we used that (Collins) pick on a player thats currently 5 on the PG depth chart. My problem has nothing to do with Balkman. I dont know if he will be a good player or not. I hope he is. My problem is Isiah messed up yet again by overpaying, and missing out on a chance to get a very good player that DID fill a need.

Regardless of what you think here's where Marcus ranked in 7 mock drafts.

nbadraft.net 13
draftexpress.com 8
espn mock 13
yahoo mock 6
cnn-si mock 8
probasketball 7
insidehoops 8

Did you see him the summer league? He dominated prompting those above sources to confirm he was indeed the steal of the draft.

Isiah does not take advantage of situations, and he does not utilize assets well. Its hurt us time and time again. The draft is just another one of those times. Eddie Curry was one time. Mo Taylor another. Jerome James may actually cost us a 21 year old role player in JB. Franics was another time. Jalen Rose was another time. Isiah is willing to take on contracts and players no other team is willing to take on, and all these teams he trades with magically improve astronomically.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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7/14/2006  3:39 PM
one last note about this... Didnt Isiah say he wouldnt comprimise the Knick's future to fill immediate needs in this draft? He's said 100 times last month we are rebuilding. Wouldnt rebuilding with Curry, Frye, Lee, Nate, Jackie go better with a bonafide highly touted distributor to set them all up for easy shots? Anyone watch UConn in the tourney? A lot of guys like to happily leave out the Francis, JJ, Mo T, Malik portion of this team when they describe the future. Thats cool, so why not at a lottery caliber PG who can distribute the ball to 4 guys? Rather than pound the ball and kick it out to one guy in the half court like ALL our current playmakers do and seemingly can only do.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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