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BasketballJones
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7/11/2006  1:06 PM
It's possible both sides in this debate is correct - I'm sure there are several possible configurations for a winning basketball team, one of which is based upon the "pass first" point guard.

This gets us back to the question of whether the coach should adapt to and try to best utilize the talent on the team, or try to change the makeup of the team to fit some kind of ideal situation, which IMHO is just not possible for the Knicks right now.

We've got Marbury, Isiah likes him, he sells jerseys, and he now has a on his face. I presume Isiah will be more creative in making the best use of him and the other less-than-perfect players on the roster than LB was.

Not drinking koolaid here, just trying to think positively.
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holfresh
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7/11/2006  1:10 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:

People really do need to get a grip with all this stuff about Steph not being able to do this or that. He's more than capable of running an offense and always has been. He's just not a traditional pass 1st PG, however i'd remind you that MANY of the greatest PG's were not pass 1st players, but MAJOR scorers. It doesn't have to be only one way.

So far Marbury has proven through his career that he can be a great individual talent. Show me the year where he succeeded at the team level.



2003 PHX SUNS....


They didn't leave the first round of the playoffs, and neither has Marbury... EVER.


Hey it was a very successful year for the franchise..They did lose to the SA Spurs in six hard fough games..But you don't care about that...Let the hate continue...


The problem was that a few months after that the chemistry was shot and the owner decided they had plateaued as the 8th seed in the west, so Marbury was dumped for payroll and gloom relief.

IOW, like in NJ before, and for many of us here, Marbury was not deemed essential for future success. Quite the opposite.



It's very easy to hang that negative stuff on Marbs...Fact is he never had the players around him to go beyond the first round...Yeah you can say he never got past the first round but basketball is still a team game...That PHX team was the best team Marbs had been on in his entire career and they were a very young team at the time...I reserve my judgement for Marbs when he fails after being on a good team that has the horses to make it to the second round...KG doesnt have the horses but you cant say he didnt lead his team to the playoffs last year..It just doesn't work like that..But lots of guys here is trying to fit that square peg in that round hole...
Bippity10
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7/11/2006  1:10 PM
We are talking about winning and pass first point guards and all this nonsense. It doesn't matter if the guys don't play hard every night. That should be our first priority because if they quit on Isiah it doesn't really matter how perfect his system is.
I just hope that people will like me
BlueSeats
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7/11/2006  1:14 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:

People really do need to get a grip with all this stuff about Steph not being able to do this or that. He's more than capable of running an offense and always has been. He's just not a traditional pass 1st PG, however i'd remind you that MANY of the greatest PG's were not pass 1st players, but MAJOR scorers. It doesn't have to be only one way.

So far Marbury has proven through his career that he can be a great individual talent. Show me the year where he succeeded at the team level.



2003 PHX SUNS....


They didn't leave the first round of the playoffs, and neither has Marbury... EVER.


Hey it was a very successful year for the franchise..They did lose to the SA Spurs in six hard fough games..But you don't care about that...Let the hate continue...


The problem was that a few months after that the chemistry was shot and the owner decided they had plateaued as the 8th seed in the west, so Marbury was dumped for payroll and gloom relief.

IOW, like in NJ before, and for many of us here, Marbury was not deemed essential for future success. Quite the opposite.



It's very easy to hang that negative stuff on Marbs...Fact is he never had the players around him to go beyond the first round...Yeah you can say he never got past the first round but basketball is still a team game...That PHX team was the best team Marbs had been on in his entire career and they were a very young team at the time...I reserve my judgement for Marbs when he fails after being on a good team that has the horses to make it to the second round...KG doesnt have the horses but you cant say he didnt lead his team to the playoffs last year..It just doesn't work like that..But lots of guys here is trying to fit that square peg in that round hole...


Well you're talking about MY feelings, but I'm reminding you of how close he came to being on his 5th team in 10 seasons. KG outlives Steph, as does, Kmart, Jefferson, Kittles, Amare, Marion, etc.

Lot's of players can use the injuries and insufficient talent excuses, but Marbury is the one who gets the boot....
holfresh
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7/11/2006  1:18 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

We are talking about winning and pass first point guards and all this nonsense. It doesn't matter if the guys don't play hard every night. That should be our first priority because if they quit on Isiah it doesn't really matter how perfect his system is.


I doubt Isiah has the same temperament as the last coach to cause the team to quit nor do I think Isiah will quit on his team...I would like to think last year was a total aberration with respect to all players and coach..I think we start anew and try to gel and play team ball....Nothing but positives Bip...



[Edited by - holfresh on 07-11-2006 1:24 PM]
crzymdups
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7/11/2006  1:29 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:

People really do need to get a grip with all this stuff about Steph not being able to do this or that. He's more than capable of running an offense and always has been. He's just not a traditional pass 1st PG, however i'd remind you that MANY of the greatest PG's were not pass 1st players, but MAJOR scorers. It doesn't have to be only one way.

So far Marbury has proven through his career that he can be a great individual talent. Show me the year where he succeeded at the team level.

His first two years in Minnesota. His second year in Phoenix. His first year in NY.
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Killa4luv
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7/11/2006  1:37 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by martin:

you go killa. LB is brainwashing the rest of us just as much as Marbury and Isiah are brainwashing you. Thanks for brining that up.
Well my main point is, having a pass-first pg, was never the most important thing in the world until LB said so. Afterwords, guys here were pining for Speedy Claxton, Brevrin Knight, etc., other veteran guys who have never won anything anywhere, but were pass first. Thats my only point.

and I was talking about what was going to be necessary for a PHO-style offense, which I would attest you need a PG that can push the ball, pass first, and score as the last option. What does that have to do with LB? And, can Marbury or other's on the team fit into that mold?
I don't think we are ever going to be playing like Phoenix to begin with. We are going to be a hybrid imo. And I think he can do that or Phoenix style for the record.
Bippity10
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7/11/2006  1:37 PM
I don't beleive in "nothing but positives" because all that does is ignore the fact that our team won 23 games last year. Ignoring that fact and blaming it ALL ON BROWN is a recipe for disaster. We need to nip this in the bud today, right now so that Isiah isn't dealing with it next year when guys aren't happy with the minutes they are receiving. If someone is attacking you with a knife burying your head in the sand does not make them go away. We can't bury our heads in the sand, no matter how great our atmosphere is here we have to pay attention to our issues. Just because the dreaded LB is gone does not make it all better. I think some are thinking that way.

Larry is gone. He will not be coming back. Isiah is our coach. It is time for our players to stop pointing fingers and start taking responsibility for what happened last year. After all they were the one's playing. I've said it again, I must be different. I'm in my 30's now so I guess I came from the last of a generation that beleived that they didn't need a coach to tell them to play hard. You just did it because you didn't know any other way. I want players like this. I don't want when the next failur comes along some player pointing fingers at someone else.

LB is gone. The excuse is now gone. The atmosphere here is now perfect, it's everything we all dreamed a basketball atmosphere should be like. So that being the case I want my players focused on playing basketball instead of talking.

The bottom line is we have not had a consistently hard playing team for about 3 years now. I don't care if that was LB's fault or Isiah's fault, or marbury's fault, or Wilken's fault or Herb's fault.It's time to realize this truth about us and make changes to it, or else we will be sitting back here next offseason arguing about the same goshdarn things we've been arguing about for three years. Enough is enough. No more excuses. come to play everynight. Do that next year and I dont' care if you win 5 games. Just become NY KNicks and play hard everynight. Why are the fans settling for less. I don't get it.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 07-11-2006 1:40 PM]
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Bippity10
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7/11/2006  1:42 PM
If our guys play hard everynight and put team ahead of individuals it will not matter what system we play. This stuff about perfect systems is nonsense.
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crzymdups
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7/11/2006  1:43 PM
Posted by martin:


what I remember about that team is that they almost beat the Spurs and it was in large part due to the scoring efforts and last second heroics of Marbury.

I don't have the stats, which guys on that PHO team where far and away much better than in other seasons (besides marbury himself)?

Tom Gugliotta had far and away the best two season of his career with Marbury.

Keith Van Horn had one of his best seasons (after his first two years) with Marbury in NY.

Sweetney's best season came with Marbury.

Kurt Thomas had two of his better seasons with Marbury.

Tim Thomas in 03-04 had the best stretch of his entire career with Marbury.

Nazr Mohammed had his best season with Marbury.

Jamal Crawford has improved next to Marbury. Lee, Frye and Nate all seem to love him.

Marion scored more under Marbury in 02-03 than he did with Nash in 04-05, and he got more shot attempts with Marbury, albeit in different systems.

Amare was a rookie, but he improved throughout the season with Marbury and won rookie of the year and was a big factor in the playoffs against the Spurs.

he played with Amare in his first season and KG in his first two, when he was with Kmart and Kittles, both missed entire years with major injuries, Allan Houston went down with a major injury almost the second Marbury arrived in NY. He's never really been able to play with great players - Marion was the only all-star level player in his prime who was established in the league and they made the playoffs and took the champions 6 games.
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Bippity10
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7/11/2006  1:48 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by martin:


what I remember about that team is that they almost beat the Spurs and it was in large part due to the scoring efforts and last second heroics of Marbury.

I don't have the stats, which guys on that PHO team where far and away much better than in other seasons (besides marbury himself)?

Tom Gugliotta had far and away the best two season of his career with Marbury.

Keith Van Horn had one of his best seasons (after his first two years) with Marbury in NY.

Sweetney's best season came with Marbury.

Kurt Thomas had two of his better seasons with Marbury.

Tim Thomas in 03-04 had the best stretch of his entire career with Marbury.

Nazr Mohammed had his best season with Marbury.

Jamal Crawford has improved next to Marbury. Lee, Frye and Nate all seem to love him.

Marion scored more under Marbury in 02-03 than he did with Nash in 04-05, and he got more shot attempts with Marbury, albeit in different systems.

Amare was a rookie, but he improved throughout the season with Marbury and won rookie of the year and was a big factor in the playoffs against the Spurs.

he played with Amare in his first season and KG in his first two, when he was with Kmart and Kittles, both missed entire years with major injuries, Allan Houston went down with a major injury almost the second Marbury arrived in NY. He's never really been able to play with great players - Marion was the only all-star level player in his prime who was established in the league and they made the playoffs and took the champions 6 games.


It all depends on how we measure best season. In Ny we measure it by statistics. Everywhere else they measure it by team success.
I just hope that people will like me
martin
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7/11/2006  1:51 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by martin:


what I remember about that team is that they almost beat the Spurs and it was in large part due to the scoring efforts and last second heroics of Marbury.

I don't have the stats, which guys on that PHO team where far and away much better than in other seasons (besides marbury himself)?

Tom Gugliotta had far and away the best two season of his career with Marbury.

Keith Van Horn had one of his best seasons (after his first two years) with Marbury in NY.

Sweetney's best season came with Marbury.

Kurt Thomas had two of his better seasons with Marbury.

Tim Thomas in 03-04 had the best stretch of his entire career with Marbury.

Nazr Mohammed had his best season with Marbury.

Jamal Crawford has improved next to Marbury. Lee, Frye and Nate all seem to love him.

Marion scored more under Marbury in 02-03 than he did with Nash in 04-05, and he got more shot attempts with Marbury, albeit in different systems.

Amare was a rookie, but he improved throughout the season with Marbury and won rookie of the year and was a big factor in the playoffs against the Spurs.

he played with Amare in his first season and KG in his first two, when he was with Kmart and Kittles, both missed entire years with major injuries, Allan Houston went down with a major injury almost the second Marbury arrived in NY. He's never really been able to play with great players - Marion was the only all-star level player in his prime who was established in the league and they made the playoffs and took the champions 6 games.


It all depends on how we measure best season. In Ny we measure it by statistics. Everywhere else they measure it by team success.

and strangely, a lot of those guys had not so good things to say about Marbs afterwards.

I want team wins.
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holfresh
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7/11/2006  2:00 PM

I don't think there are any illusions that this is a make it or break year for most of these players and coach...This year is a defining year for the entire organization...Please don't sell anyone in the organization short of understanding this...This is a defining year for Marbury, Curry, Q1, Francis and Isiah....

There are no excuses after this year. The assumption that this maybe a repeat of last year is a bit farfetch to me...

Listen I'm supporting Isiah because I do understand it takes time to build a winning situation...It doesn't happen overnight...It's a building process...Along the way you are going to make mistakes guaranteed...Dumars drafted Darko and Kiki signed KMart....But Isiah needed to do this...Bip it's like cooking soup from scratch..He needed to get a much talent as possible on this roster,the ingredience... throw them in a pot and see how they play together then you add or romove the necessary pieces until you really start cooking...That was suppose to happen last year with Larry Brown...He was the perfect guy to give all the ingredience and build the team from the bottom...Larry had his own plans...So a year removed Isiah is now the Chef in the kitchen..He now buy the groceries and have to cook the soup...Thats what's happening....

No one head is burried in the sand for this one bro...Believe that..This is a big year...Believe everyone will be in camp, in shape, ready to play or it's their arses professionally...





[Edited by - holfresh on 07-11-2006 2:07 PM]
martin
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7/11/2006  2:05 PM
Posted by holfresh:



I don't think there are any illusions that this is a make it or break year for most of these players and coach...This year is a defining year for the entire organization...Please don't sell anyone in the organization short of understanding this...This is a defining year for Marbury, Curry, Q1, Francis and Isiah....

There are no excuses after this year. The assumption that this maybe a repeat of last year is a bit farfetch to me...

Listen I'm supporting Isiah because I do understand it takes time to build a winning situation...It doesn't happen overnight...It's a building process...Along the way you are going to make mistakes guaranteed...Dumars drafted Darko and Kiki signed KMart....But Isiah needed to do this...Bip it's like cooking soup from scratch..He needed to get a much talent as possible on this roster,the ingredience... throw them in a pot and see how they play together then you add or romove the necessary pieces until you really start cooking...That was suppose to happen last year with Larry Brown...He was the perfect guy to give all the ingredience and build the team from the bottom...Larry had his own plans...So a year removed Isiah is not the Chef in the kitchen..He now buy the groceries and have to cook the soup...Thats whats happening....

No one head is burried in the sand for this one bro...Believe that..This is a big year...Believe everyone will be in camp, in shape, ready to play or it's their arses professionally...

I agree with this but I do think Isiah is hampered by the fact that he is in a spot where he cannot add/remove any ingrediants this year.

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nyk4ever
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7/11/2006  2:07 PM
Posted by holfresh:



I don't think there are any illusions that this is a make it or break year for most of these players and coach...This year is a defining year for the entire organization...Please don't sell anyone in the organization short of understanding this...This is a defining year for Marbury, Curry, Q1, Francis and Isiah....

There are no excuses after this year. The assumption that this maybe a repeat of last year is a bit farfetch to me...

Listen I'm supporting Isiah because I do understand it takes time to build a winning situation...It doesn't happen overnight...It's a building process...Along the way you are going to make mistakes guaranteed...Dumars drafted Darko and Kiki signed KMart....But Isiah needed to do this...Bip it's like cooking soup from scratch..He needed to get a much talent as possible on this roster,the ingredience... throw them in a pot and see how they play together then you add or romove the necessary pieces until you really start cooking...That was suppose to happen last year with Larry Brown...He was the perfect guy to give all the ingredience and build the team from the bottom...Larry had his own plans...So a year removed Isiah is not the Chef in the kitchen..He now buy the groceries and have to cook the soup...Thats whats happening....

No one head is burried in the sand for this one bro...Believe that..This is a big year...Believe everyone will be in camp, in shape, ready to play or it's their arses professionally...




Holfresh you contradicted yourself with this statement.
He needed to get a much talent as possible on this roster,the ingredience... throw them in a pot and see how they play together then you add or romove the necessary pieces until you really start cooking...That was suppose to happen last year with Larry Brown...He was the perfect guy to give all the ingredience and build the team from the bottom

Isiah Thomas has a different idea of building a team then Larry has and Isiah hired Larry to let him build his team but he couldn't because Isiah had already started building his team who had brought in peices that Larry didn't like and were cemented in place. Therefor Isiah's plan was going to be used becuase it was the only plan that could be used.

Isiah has been cooking his "soup" for awhile and as a consumer I'm friggen tired of the this ****ty soup and I want the damn chef changed so I can get some soup that tastes good for once!


[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-11-2006 2:09 PM]
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crzymdups
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7/11/2006  2:10 PM
Posted by martin:

and strangely, a lot of those guys had not so good things to say about Marbs afterwards.

I want team wins.

so they didn't like him. this isn't a personality contest. I want team wins.
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nyk4ever
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7/11/2006  2:10 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by martin:

and strangely, a lot of those guys had not so good things to say about Marbs afterwards.

I want team wins.

so they didn't like him. this isn't a personality contest. I want team wins.

If you want team wins then you need a new PG
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
crzymdups
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7/11/2006  2:11 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by martin:

and strangely, a lot of those guys had not so good things to say about Marbs afterwards.

I want team wins.

so they didn't like him. this isn't a personality contest. I want team wins.

If you want team wins then you need a new PG

we'll see.
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nyk4ever
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7/11/2006  2:13 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by martin:

and strangely, a lot of those guys had not so good things to say about Marbs afterwards.

I want team wins.

so they didn't like him. this isn't a personality contest. I want team wins.

If you want team wins then you need a new PG

we'll see.

I'm not saying that if Isiah traded Marbury for a pass-first PG that this team would suddenly be a Eastern contender. I just think things start with a PG and once Isiah has that he can really evaluate what this team needs or doesn't need to be successful.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
holfresh
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7/11/2006  2:17 PM
You don't build a winner overnight...Look at it this way...We have Frye, Curry, Marbs and Lee...The type of players we haven't had on this roster since the Ewing days...Guys with big talent that can grow into something..Maybe Marbs is there already...But lets say 3 of our young guys come into their own in the next 2 years we have a foundation that could last the next 10 years....That's waht I see when I look at this team...Every move he makes isn't going to be the best or one you will agree because he had to take chances based on where we were( not a lot of talent on the roster and over the cap with our leading players with knee injuries and making boatloads). Thats why you see trades like Curry, he had to gamble...

Guys it's not an overnight deal...But we may have a foundation..Let's let them play...



[Edited by - holfresh on 07-11-2006 2:37 PM]
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