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Isiah Thomas--tell me what Balkman can do that JR Pinnock cannot do?
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tkf
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7/9/2006  9:17 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by bigbeast:

Gerald Wallace ( 6'7 average 2.09 blks last year). Not saying he is as good Wallace but both are about the same size.

Admunson is a tweener in the molds of David Lee but not as good. Balkman is a better option at the three than Admunson. Of course he needs to add about 10 pounds but that'll come.


GWallace has a running 42 inch vertical jump. Hes not in the same athletiscm class--wallace is of the highest caliber athletiscm in the world--this guy is a full tier below that


why is balkman a better 3 option hes 6-6 206 admunson is 6-8 222 stronger better athlete better scorer rebounder is 6-6 206 even a 3 in the nba?


I think you are underestimating balkmans athleticism. Some say his athleticism is on the elite level. From what I have seen, he is explosive, has a lot of spring and moves fast, that is enough for me, all this 42 inch verticle leap crap means nothing on paper.. heck Jordan Farmar measured a 42 inch verticle, I guarantee you, he won't be dunking on anyone anytime soon.... Balkman seems like the type of player that we need, that will make everyone better, yea, maybe, actually, I am sure we could of gotten him at 29, so what? what is your point? That we could of had marcus williams? I agree, I wanted marcus there also, but if IT is going to be married to old Block head marbury, then that would of been a wasted pick...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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Pharzeone
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7/9/2006  9:23 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Elite:

ps u think williams woujld be cool with playing behond stephon marbury for however long? that isnt exactly known to be his charictor now is it

Just to play devils advocate, then why did he take Collins at 29?

Collins had a private workout for the Knicks. I am not sure about Williams, I heard he didn't work out for teams not in the lottery. That is a draft day killer. Why ask this question of just the Knicks, any team that drafted a pg before Marcus Williams should be asked the same thing. Hell maybe Thomas thought Williams was dropping so bad that he could be there at 29. I just read where Briggs now had him going at 16, which is confusing since he stated that the Knicks for atleast 2 months needed to get either the 6th or 10th pick to secure him. I am laughing because Briggs is not advocating why did we take Balkman but why didn't we take a fav player of his from the college he roots for. I like Marcus Williams but lets be fair he was past over by 21 teams, many who worked him out twice. I don't even think the Nets brought him in, reminds me of Grunfeld drafting of John Wallace at 18, never working him out but just couldn't understand why so many GMs past over him.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
martin
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7/9/2006  9:37 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Elite:

ps u think williams woujld be cool with playing behond stephon marbury for however long? that isnt exactly known to be his charictor now is it

Just to play devils advocate, then why did he take Collins at 29?

Collins had a private workout for the Knicks. I am not sure about Williams, I heard he didn't work out for teams not in the lottery. That is a draft day killer. Why ask this question of just the Knicks, any team that drafted a pg before Marcus Williams should be asked the same thing. Hell maybe Thomas thought Williams was dropping so bad that he could be there at 29. I just read where Briggs now had him going at 16, which is confusing since he stated that the Knicks for atleast 2 months needed to get either the 6th or 10th pick to secure him. I am laughing because Briggs is not advocating why did we take Balkman but why didn't we take a fav player of his from the college he roots for. I like Marcus Williams but lets be fair he was past over by 21 teams, many who worked him out twice. I don't even think the Nets brought him in, reminds me of Grunfeld drafting of John Wallace at 18, never working him out but just couldn't understand why so many GMs past over him.

I never liked the "he was passed over by 21 teams" arguement. It wasn't 21 teams really. You figure the top 10 guys were plain better and then considering drafting bigs and team needs, you have about 5 teams that passed on Marcus that you can make an arguement would need/want a player like that.

9, 10 GSW, SEA: Big, Big
11 ORL: Need for shooting guard
12, 15 CHA: They already have Felton
13, 16: Different needs for PHI and CHI in draft swap, although you can make an arguement that PHI needs a PG, so PASS #1
14 UTH: Big drafted, already has Deron.
17 IND: Drafted SF - maybe cause they knew Peja was going? PASS #2 is reasonable.
18 WAS: Need player
19: SAC - PASS #3
20: KNK - PASS #4
21 PHO: Is Marcus an open court or halfcourt player better than Rajon? PASS #5

So, in my estimation about 5 teams including the Knicks really passed on Marcus because of raw talent/need/whatever. Am I off on this?
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EwingsGlass
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7/9/2006  9:56 PM
By that count, the Knicks took a player they needed (i.e. defense) and they have several point guards on the roster. So, the Knicks didn't really pass on him either.
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nyk4ever
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7/9/2006  10:05 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:

By that count, the Knicks took a player they needed (i.e. defense) and they have several point guards on the roster. So, the Knicks didn't really pass on him either.

I would say they did, just for the fact that other teams that DID pass on him are better teams who SHOULD be drafting for need and not for BPA, like the Knicks should be.
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Pharzeone
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7/9/2006  10:37 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Elite:

ps u think williams woujld be cool with playing behond stephon marbury for however long? that isnt exactly known to be his charictor now is it

Just to play devils advocate, then why did he take Collins at 29?

Collins had a private workout for the Knicks. I am not sure about Williams, I heard he didn't work out for teams not in the lottery. That is a draft day killer. Why ask this question of just the Knicks, any team that drafted a pg before Marcus Williams should be asked the same thing. Hell maybe Thomas thought Williams was dropping so bad that he could be there at 29. I just read where Briggs now had him going at 16, which is confusing since he stated that the Knicks for atleast 2 months needed to get either the 6th or 10th pick to secure him. I am laughing because Briggs is not advocating why did we take Balkman but why didn't we take a fav player of his from the college he roots for. I like Marcus Williams but lets be fair he was past over by 21 teams, many who worked him out twice. I don't even think the Nets brought him in, reminds me of Grunfeld drafting of John Wallace at 18, never working him out but just couldn't understand why so many GMs past over him.

I never liked the "he was passed over by 21 teams" arguement. It wasn't 21 teams really. You figure the top 10 guys were plain better and then considering drafting bigs and team needs, you have about 5 teams that passed on Marcus that you can make an arguement would need/want a player like that.

9, 10 GSW, SEA: Big, Big
11 ORL: Need for shooting guard
12, 15 CHA: They already have Felton
13, 16: Different needs for PHI and CHI in draft swap, although you can make an arguement that PHI needs a PG, so PASS #1
14 UTH: Big drafted, already has Deron.
17 IND: Drafted SF - maybe cause they knew Peja was going? PASS #2 is reasonable.
18 WAS: Need player
19: SAC - PASS #3
20: KNK - PASS #4
21 PHO: Is Marcus an open court or halfcourt player better than Rajon? PASS #5

So, in my estimation about 5 teams including the Knicks really passed on Marcus because of raw talent/need/whatever. Am I off on this?

So let me get this straight Martin, you would pass on MJ too because you didn't have a need. So Orlando doesn't take Williams over Nelson, if you really believe Williams is capable of being more. Why? Briggs is describing Williams as though he was a superstar in the making and now you want to say it was ok for 19 other teams to pass over Williams but not the Knicks who have Marbury, Francis, Crawford and Nate at the position. That is real shortsided. So Felton is better than Williams? I mean it gets back to really how good is Williams, really. If you give passes to both Orlando and Utah for passing on him. I guess you are in agreement that Foye is better than Williams because I see you didn't list T Wolves. Here is another weird question are both Bargnani and Telfair better than Charlie V and Williams and another potential 1st round pick. Forget that one, I been mulling over that one myself. I myself really like Williams but watching him fall to the Knicks after he was ranked at no longer than 13, where everyone on the planet was sure that Philly would grab him, really bothers me. Also did he work out for the Knicks. I could never kill a GM for not drafting a player who refuse a workout. Unless you are guarantee a spot and it is stated, you should never refuse a workout unless you really don't want to play for that team.
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bigbeast
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7/9/2006  10:53 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Elite:

ps u think williams woujld be cool with playing behond stephon marbury for however long? that isnt exactly known to be his charictor now is it

Just to play devils advocate, then why did he take Collins at 29?

Collins had a private workout for the Knicks. I am not sure about Williams, I heard he didn't work out for teams not in the lottery. That is a draft day killer. Why ask this question of just the Knicks, any team that drafted a pg before Marcus Williams should be asked the same thing. Hell maybe Thomas thought Williams was dropping so bad that he could be there at 29. I just read where Briggs now had him going at 16, which is confusing since he stated that the Knicks for atleast 2 months needed to get either the 6th or 10th pick to secure him. I am laughing because Briggs is not advocating why did we take Balkman but why didn't we take a fav player of his from the college he roots for. I like Marcus Williams but lets be fair he was past over by 21 teams, many who worked him out twice. I don't even think the Nets brought him in, reminds me of Grunfeld drafting of John Wallace at 18, never working him out but just couldn't understand why so many GMs past over him.

I never liked the "he was passed over by 21 teams" arguement. It wasn't 21 teams really. You figure the top 10 guys were plain better and then considering drafting bigs and team needs, you have about 5 teams that passed on Marcus that you can make an arguement would need/want a player like that.

9, 10 GSW, SEA: Big, Big
11 ORL: Need for shooting guard
12, 15 CHA: They already have Felton
13, 16: Different needs for PHI and CHI in draft swap, although you can make an arguement that PHI needs a PG, so PASS #1
14 UTH: Big drafted, already has Deron.
17 IND: Drafted SF - maybe cause they knew Peja was going? PASS #2 is reasonable.
18 WAS: Need player
19: SAC - PASS #3
20: KNK - PASS #4
21 PHO: Is Marcus an open court or halfcourt player better than Rajon? PASS #5

So, in my estimation about 5 teams including the Knicks really passed on Marcus because of raw talent/need/whatever. Am I off on this?

So let me get this straight Martin, you would pass on MJ too because you didn't have a need. So Orlando doesn't take Williams over Nelson, if you really believe Williams is capable of being more. Why? Briggs is describing Williams as though he was a superstar in the making and now you want to say it was ok for 19 other teams to pass over Williams but not the Knicks who have Marbury, Francis, Crawford and Nate at the position. That is real shortsided. So Felton is better than Williams? I mean it gets back to really how good is Williams, really. If you give passes to both Orlando and Utah for passing on him. I guess you are in agreement that Foye is better than Williams because I see you didn't list T Wolves. Here is another weird question are both Bargnani and Telfair better than Charlie V and Williams and another potential 1st round pick. Forget that one, I been mulling over that one myself. I myself really like Williams but watching him fall to the Knicks after he was ranked at no longer than 13, where everyone on the planet was sure that Philly would grab him, really bothers me. Also did he work out for the Knicks. I could never kill a GM for not drafting a player who refuse a workout. Unless you are guarantee a spot and it is stated, you should never refuse a workout unless you really don't want to play for that team.

Great Post....You stole alot of my thunder....You can also add Atlanta to the mix because they definitely needed a point guard. Seattle as well. Luke had a down yr, and they went ahead and drafted a center (there third in three yrs) who just started playing basketball a week ago.

The Toronto twist is interesting. I was thinking th same thing but from a Knick point of view. Would if the Knicks took Williams at 20. Would he have been enough to pry Charlie V from Toronto?
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Pharzeone
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7/9/2006  10:58 PM
After I posted I thought about the teams that past him over and I was going to edited it for Atlanta.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
TemujinKnick
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7/9/2006  11:02 PM
So Williams is MJ now? People are acting like he is a once in a lifetime talent. I don't buy for one second that he's a superstar in the making. Guess we will have to wait and see.
bigbeast
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7/9/2006  11:05 PM
Willimas reminds me of Mark Jackson. He'd be lucky if could only be half as good...
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Pharzeone
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7/9/2006  11:13 PM
Posted by TemujinKnick:

So Williams is MJ now? People are acting like he is a once in a lifetime talent. I don't buy for one second that he's a superstar in the making. Guess we will have to wait and see.

That is how he is being treated by many posters and NY media. Martin said it was ok for 14th teams to pass over him but not 5. I am wondering why? If he was so worthy for the Knicks to take why not other teams. NY4ever said that it was ok for the other teams to pass over him because they were better and could after need versus BPA, which is weird because I have always heard the opposite from all draft gurus and GMs. Better teams draft for BPA while the worst teams draft for need to get better.
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martin
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7/9/2006  11:22 PM
Phar, beast, I don't really follow your logic. I already mentioned that I thought the 1-8 players selected were more talented than Marcus, so it was not so much of a skip on their part but rather a better talent.

Atlanta? That's what your coming back with. Altanta signed Joe Johnson to a massive contract under which he said he wanted the PG duties. Does Josh Childress play the same position? And what you forgot to mention was that Atlanta also needed rebounding, shotblocking and defense. NEEDS. That was more important to them, and so Marcus wasn't even on the horizon for them.

Sometimes bigs go higher than their talent equates to. Sene, Hilton Armstrong. That happens.

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martin
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7/9/2006  11:24 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by TemujinKnick:

So Williams is MJ now? People are acting like he is a once in a lifetime talent. I don't buy for one second that he's a superstar in the making. Guess we will have to wait and see.

That is how he is being treated by many posters and NY media. Martin said it was ok for 14th teams to pass over him but not 5. I am wondering why?

Why? DIdn't I put an explanation next to each? Go pick by pick and show me your explanation for each team.

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crzymdups
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7/10/2006  12:17 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by TemujinKnick:

So Williams is MJ now? People are acting like he is a once in a lifetime talent. I don't buy for one second that he's a superstar in the making. Guess we will have to wait and see.

That is how he is being treated by many posters and NY media. Martin said it was ok for 14th teams to pass over him but not 5. I am wondering why?

Why? DIdn't I put an explanation next to each? Go pick by pick and show me your explanation for each team.

The Knicks didn't pass him, they addressed a need, going by your logic.
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earthmansurfer
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7/10/2006  12:18 AM
I am going to trust Isiah, but I think I feel along with Briggs. We should have got one of Phoenix's picks, by calling them we could have found out if they were interested and we would have had all three players! The only thing I can come up with is that our players aren't going anywere. Also, on the other side of the fence, since Williams is the best point guard in the draft and many teams need a good point guard, why the hell did he slide so much. Time will tell, as will the Eddy Curry trade. In all seriousness we should have all three players as it seems Phoenix would have parted with theres... but it's time to "let it go" and not develop an ulcer over this... Iraq, now that is worth developing an ulcer over
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crzymdups
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7/10/2006  12:28 AM
Everyone moaned and moaned and moaned that we had too many players that needed the ball to be effective, that we had no one who could play defense, that our guards couldn't stop a soul, that the team had no hustle players, no role players, no glue guys, no one who could be coached.

Then Isiah Thomas goes out and drafts two coachable, defensive guys who can guard the perimeter, steal, block shots - and folks here whine about the fact that we passed on the guy who needs the ball to be effective, doesn't play a lick of defense and has character issues.

Briggs is always talking about Frye's lack of leg strength, belitting Balkman's athleticism, etc. What about the ring of jelly around Marcus' belly and ass? The kid is tubby. In the NBA that might be an issue at the point. It certainly was Khalid El Amin.

Last year it was tell me what Frye can do that Pittsnoogle can't and it was just as ridiculous. Sorry, Briggs, I respect you opinion, but it's time to let it go.
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BRIGGS
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7/10/2006  12:34 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by TemujinKnick:

So Williams is MJ now? People are acting like he is a once in a lifetime talent. I don't buy for one second that he's a superstar in the making. Guess we will have to wait and see.

That is how he is being treated by many posters and NY media. Martin said it was ok for 14th teams to pass over him but not 5. I am wondering why?

Why? DIdn't I put an explanation next to each? Go pick by pick and show me your explanation for each team.

The Knicks didn't pass him, they addressed a need, going by your logic.


the bigs who went up in the draft were projected to go in the areas they went. Somehow EVERY team in the NBA every scouting service every analyst had Balkman anywhere from 50 to undrafted and we took him 20? the guy just came on in his last few games of his last year-just like jerome james did.

i HOPE balkman does well for the knicks in 2-3 years. But its very much like the management style of the Ny knicks everyone else is wrong and isiah is right. Picking Lee at 30 that was one heckuva pick, Lee is pretty much our best player--hes the new real heart and soul of the tam. But lee is/was a big time recruit out of HS who won the Mcd dunk contest and played at a very high profile school. Balkman's size and credentials arent in the same ballpark as Lee. What I think they were doing was stroking their own ego with the pick--you know the next rodzilla artest man.
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tomverve
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7/10/2006  12:38 AM
briggs is criticizing Isiah for stroking his own ego and going crazy about a player over a few games.

Life is funny sometimes

Love ya briggs.
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crzymdups
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7/10/2006  12:46 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

the bigs who went up in the draft were projected to go in the areas they went. Somehow EVERY team in the NBA every scouting service every analyst had Balkman anywhere from 50 to undrafted and we took him 20? the guy just came on in his last few games of his last year-just like jerome james did.

i HOPE balkman does well for the knicks in 2-3 years. But its very much like the management style of the Ny knicks everyone else is wrong and isiah is right. Picking Lee at 30 that was one heckuva pick, Lee is pretty much our best player--hes the new real heart and soul of the tam. But lee is/was a big time recruit out of HS who won the Mcd dunk contest and played at a very high profile school. Balkman's size and credentials arent in the same ballpark as Lee. What I think they were doing was stroking their own ego with the pick--you know the next rodzilla artest man.

I agree it's high to pick him. but if he had legitimate concerns the guy he wanted was going to be taken, I have no problem with taking him there. he's a good scout of talent. as is suhr. they have picked some incredible bigs - suhr found rodman and forced Orlando to sign Ben Wallace, both guys loved Lee, Frye was supposedly picked too high, etc.

Marcus Williams is a smart player, but I honestly question whether his game translates. he finished 73rd in the draft athletics test - he was slow, weak and couldn't jump well. you and I and most people who watch college basketball know the kid can pass and has a head for the game and a feel for the moment, but he clearly has a LOT of physical things to work on. I'm fine with us passing on him because I think NY would have been the worst environment possible to put this kid in right now. I think he can be good, but I also honestly think Crawford will be better over the next 8yrs or so. we'll see, I guess.
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