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knixphan
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7/5/2006  4:05 PM
But nyk does bring up a good point about Knick fans, their desire for a championship...and their lack of desire to see a realistic approach to obtaining one... Like Larry or not, his plan was probably a multi-year one...but everyone wants to feel playoff fever right now...
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BlueSeats
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7/5/2006  4:15 PM
Is Larry's 23 win season really the benchmark for Isiah to beat? I mean we had a 37 win season before Isiah even arrived. And that was with an 89M payroll with over 20M slated to expire.

So he takes over a 37 win team with a payroll diving to ~67 million, and 3 years later, with a payroll driven up to ~133M all he's gotta do is beat his own bottomed out 23 win season to be deemed a success?
fishmike
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7/5/2006  4:15 PM
saying Larry tanked is all fine and good, but the players still have to totally suck to win 23 games, and let me tell you they lived up their end of the bargain. I mean, for all you guys talking about how its going to turn around what is it you expect to see more of thats going to make that happen?

As currently constructed we are still an atrocious defensive club. If Isiah's solution to that is KFart than as Obi Wan said we truley ARE lost.
We are still a team soft on the boards
We are still a team that does not have a player that elevates the level of play of guys around him
We are still a team that does not have a leader on the court. A guy that stops opposing runs or stabalizes bad situations.
We have a lame duck coach with a lot of guys that have a history of quitting when things dont go their way.

Talk about Balkman or anyone else's impact till your blue in the face. Until it happens on the court its a fantasy.
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Anji
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7/5/2006  4:33 PM
THe problem is last season can't be erased. Talk about money or coaches or if and but's all you want...... You can't take away the war between Brown and Dolan. You can't take away the war between Marbury and Brown. YOu can't take away Marburys or Frys injuries. Last season was a car wreck, and Isiah is suppose to hop in to the car like nothing happened and do better then Larry was suppose to do if decided to coach???? Like car didn't smash into a wall and burst into flames???? It did happen, so the knicks have to go from there.

THat is stupid and unrealistic. Not only is there nothing to build on from last season, but you have to rebuild things from last season. If Isiah get Isiah gets to the playoffs that is progess. 37/38/39 wins and playing for the 8th seed in march is progress. Everything else is just Haterade coming from guys.
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
Rich
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7/5/2006  4:37 PM
Posted by fishmike:

saying Larry tanked is all fine and good, but the players still have to totally suck to win 23 games, and let me tell you they lived up their end of the bargain. I mean, for all you guys talking about how its going to turn around what is it you expect to see more of thats going to make that happen?

As currently constructed we are still an atrocious defensive club. If Isiah's solution to that is KFart than as Obi Wan said we truley ARE lost.
We are still a team soft on the boards
We are still a team that does not have a player that elevates the level of play of guys around him
We are still a team that does not have a leader on the court. A guy that stops opposing runs or stabalizes bad situations.
We have a lame duck coach with a lot of guys that have a history of quitting when things dont go their way.

Talk about Balkman or anyone else's impact till your blue in the face. Until it happens on the court its a fantasy.

I agree that rebounding is still the biggest need, that's why I wanted to draft Hilton Armstrong.

I'm counting on Isiah to raise everyone's level of play. I think the players want him to remain as coach and will bust their butts for him, at least until it seems like the hard work isn't paying off.
nyk4ever
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7/5/2006  4:50 PM
Posted by Anji:

THe problem is last season can't be erased. Talk about money or coaches or if and but's all you want...... You can't take away the war between Brown and Dolan. You can't take away the war between Marbury and Brown. YOu can't take away Marburys or Frys injuries. Last season was a car wreck, and Isiah is suppose to hop in to the car like nothing happened and do better then Larry was suppose to do if decided to coach???? Like car didn't smash into a wall and burst into flames???? It did happen, so the knicks have to go from there.

THat is stupid and unrealistic. Not only is there nothing to build on from last season, but you have to rebuild things from last season. If Isiah get Isiah gets to the playoffs that is progess. 37/38/39 wins and playing for the 8th seed in march is progress. Everything else is just Haterade coming from guys.

I cant believe that Knicks fans are actually thinking this way. For all that you guys talk about how "talented" of a roster we have and your only expecting 37 wins? That is ridiculous, the payroll of this team is off the charts, don't you want more for your money!??!?! Other coaches have had had trouble getting to the players on this team, yet if Isiah gets 37 wins out of them its progress. I truly don't understand how Isiah Thomas gets the benefit of the doubt for ANYTHING he's done here with the Knicks.
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eViL
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7/5/2006  5:12 PM
Posted by Anji:

Everything else is just Haterade coming from guys.

I hate to break it to ya, but this is just stupid talk. I, for one, drink the new Haterade Fierce.
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Anji
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7/5/2006  5:45 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I cant believe that Knicks fans are actually thinking this way. For all that you guys talk about how "talented" of a roster we have and your only expecting 37 wins? That is ridiculous, the payroll of this team is off the charts, don't you want more for your money!??!?! Other coaches have had had trouble getting to the players on this team, yet if Isiah gets 37 wins out of them its progress. I truly don't understand how Isiah Thomas gets the benefit of the doubt for ANYTHING he's done here with the Knicks.

Because you are irrational when it comes to this topic. This isn't NBA LIve 2006, alot of bad sh!# happened last season and that just doesn't go away. It has to fixed. IF Isiah ends this season at 41 and 41 that is a great season (that most of you will say is probably the best the knicks could hope for)........ so he did a terrible job if he gets 3 or 4 less wins???? That is pure Hate, Period. And I can't put it any more plain then that. The way I see it:

42-46 Isiah sh#@s on Larry Brown and his HOfer career
41-38 Isiah had a Good to great season
37-34 Isiah is in the firing Range

Knicks have nothing zero to build on from last season because Larry Brown threw a whole season......... it is what it is.


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nyk4ever
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7/5/2006  5:50 PM
Posted by Anji:
Posted by nyk4ever:

I cant believe that Knicks fans are actually thinking this way. For all that you guys talk about how "talented" of a roster we have and your only expecting 37 wins? That is ridiculous, the payroll of this team is off the charts, don't you want more for your money!??!?! Other coaches have had had trouble getting to the players on this team, yet if Isiah gets 37 wins out of them its progress. I truly don't understand how Isiah Thomas gets the benefit of the doubt for ANYTHING he's done here with the Knicks.

Because you are irrational when it comes to this topic. This isn't NBA LIve 2006, alot of bad sh!# happened last season and that just doesn't go away. It has to fixed. IF Isiah ends this season at 41 and 41 that is a great season (that most of you will say is probably the best the knicks could hope for)........ so he did a terrible job if he gets 3 or 4 less wins???? That is pure Hate, Period. And I can't put it any more plain then that. The way I see it:

42-46 Isiah sh#@s on Larry Brown and his HOfer career
41-38 Isiah had a Good to great season
37-34 Isiah is in the firing Range

Knicks have nothing zero to build on from last season because Larry Brown threw a whole season......... it is what it is.

The Knicks had nothing to build on before last year either! Isiah Thomas has loaded this roster with malcontents and noted team-cancers and you expect this team to go anywhere? This team has had nothing to build on for 3 years because of the constant player movement by Isiah Thomas and James Dolan. Like it or not, you cant win in the NBA without playing defense and there isn't one defensive player on this team, yet you believe winning 40 games and getting swept in the 1st round is some big deal. Well guess what, the Knicks will win 40 games next year, Chicago will swap picks and get the better player in the draft, then free-agency will start and the Knicks won't be able to sign anyone to improve their 40 win record becuase they'll still be capped out, repeat this process for the next 4 years and you got the fruit of Isiahs labor.

Take your blinders off and realize where the real problem lies and stop pledging aliegence to Isiah Thomas!
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
buddapaw
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7/5/2006  6:07 PM
Defence is built on teamwork and knowing how each person on the team plays together. How can you keyboard coaches and followers of LARRY BROWN the NBA's COACHING GOD say that last years Knicks had any chance of developing any chemisty through consistent lineup and rotations. All the apple can't be that bad. I've seen games when a players is having a great game then be mysteriously sent to the bench never to return. The young unit usually got the Knick back into the game many times only to be replaced. Open your eyes people! Just because a man has a good track record makes him the end all be all.
The way some of you guys behave it's like it is sacrilidge to speak ill of Larry Brown. The man has some serious flaws!

[Edited by - buddapaw on 07-05-2006 6:11 PM]
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franco12
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7/5/2006  6:34 PM
improvement to me will be measured only in part with wins- he could win 23, but if games were close, guys were trying, franics/marbury/q were tradeable and their value restored, and there was chemistry, then I would judge it a success.

We got blown out last year a lot. If we lost by 1 point every night and compiled 82 losses, I might argue that was progress. Exageration, yes- but get the idea..
martin
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7/5/2006  6:37 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

Defence is built on teamwork and knowing how each person on the team plays together. How can you keyboard coaches and followers of LARRY BROWN the NBA's COACHING GOD say that last years Knicks had any chance of developing any chemisty through consistent lineup and rotations. All the apple can't be that bad. I've seen games when a players is having a great game then be mysteriously sent to the bench never to return. The young unit usually got the Knick back into the game many times only to be replaced. Open your eyes people! Just because a man has a good track record makes him the end all be all.
The way some of you guys behave it's like it is sacrilidge to speak ill of Larry Brown. The man has some serious flaws!

[Edited by - buddapaw on 07-05-2006 6:11 PM]

how many of the lineup changes were because of injury and/or trades?

I saw many games where effort was lacking. Pure effort is about the indivual. DLee seemed to have given it no matter if he just came off the DNP-CD or whatever.
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buddapaw
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7/5/2006  6:41 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by buddapaw:

Defence is built on teamwork and knowing how each person on the team plays together. How can you keyboard coaches and followers of LARRY BROWN the NBA's COACHING GOD say that last years Knicks had any chance of developing any chemisty through consistent lineup and rotations. All the apple can't be that bad. I've seen games when a players is having a great game then be mysteriously sent to the bench never to return. The young unit usually got the Knick back into the game many times only to be replaced. Open your eyes people! Just because a man has a good track record makes him the end all be all.
The way some of you guys behave it's like it is sacrilidge to speak ill of Larry Brown. The man has some serious flaws!

[Edited by - buddapaw on 07-05-2006 6:11 PM]

how many of the lineup changes were because of injury and/or trades?

I saw many games where effort was lacking. Pure effort is about the indivual. DLee seemed to have given it no matter if he just came off the DNP-CD or whatever.

That is also true, but it is the coaches job to motivate his players(Yes the players are millionaire crybabys that's a given). Another questionable tact is he wanted effort, he begged for effort and the guys that are giving it to him he doesn't reward them. It works both ways, how about coaching effort?
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martin
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7/5/2006  6:50 PM
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by martin:
Posted by buddapaw:

Defence is built on teamwork and knowing how each person on the team plays together. How can you keyboard coaches and followers of LARRY BROWN the NBA's COACHING GOD say that last years Knicks had any chance of developing any chemisty through consistent lineup and rotations. All the apple can't be that bad. I've seen games when a players is having a great game then be mysteriously sent to the bench never to return. The young unit usually got the Knick back into the game many times only to be replaced. Open your eyes people! Just because a man has a good track record makes him the end all be all.
The way some of you guys behave it's like it is sacrilidge to speak ill of Larry Brown. The man has some serious flaws!

[Edited by - buddapaw on 07-05-2006 6:11 PM]

how many of the lineup changes were because of injury and/or trades?

I saw many games where effort was lacking. Pure effort is about the indivual. DLee seemed to have given it no matter if he just came off the DNP-CD or whatever.

That is also true, but it is the coaches job to motivate his players(Yes the players are millionaire crybabys that's a given). Another questionable tact is he wanted effort, he begged for effort and the guys that are giving it to him he doesn't reward them. It works both ways, how about coaching effort?

so it's down to coaching effort?

There weren't too many guys who gave 100% effort, and those that did - Malik - we all called for him to sit. Catch 22 I guess.
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oohah
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7/5/2006  6:52 PM
To base this years results on what LB may have won had he not (Theoretically) tanked the 2005-2006 season is absurd. Isiah is supposed to build on a win total that did not happen? On team chemistry and player development that barely or never occured? For whatever reasons, coach or otherwise, the Knicks won only 23 games in 2005-2006.

35 wins is a decent improvement, and I will not be happy with it, but it will be acceptable.

Around 40 and I will sh!t myself.

Around 45 wins and Isiah should get coach and GM of the year like I think RV said earlier...

I've written it before, whatever improvement that would have made you happy if LB were at the helm should make you happy next season. To base it on payroll or even the style of play is misguided.

And by the way, I think that the Knicks could have won in the 35 game range if LB hadn't crapped all over the team. But that did not happen. It was a year wasted.

35 wins and there is no way Dolan fires Isiah.

oohah

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joec32033
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7/5/2006  6:53 PM
You guys are alot more forgiving than I am. To me anything below 45 wins is a failure for Isiah. It's a high bar-and not a nod to Zeke's coaching prowess.

First I am gonna side with you Anti-LB guys for a sec here and say that last season shouldn't have happened-for whatever reason-and since the players blamed LB, it's obvious to me that the player should perform up to at least expectations.. It shouldn't have, so I am basing my opinion on what the vet players should do on what they have always done.

Simply put these players(by these players I mean the stars that seemed to hate LB-Steph, Francis, Jalen...etc.) are going to like playing for Zeke. To me that adds at LEAST between 7-10 wins right there. That brings us up to between 30-33 wins.

The fact that he is going to run a PHX style offense that is best for this group is another at least 7-10 wins.

We are up to 37-43 wins. And 37 still seems low for the talent on this roster. 43 seems fair. Taking into account the development of our rookies ad the fact that Zeke will have at least 2 guys that are mainly here for defense (Larry had none) to try and shut some guys down and Collins is a big guard that we have lacked, I think 45 is a fair level. Especially for the way Zeke talks up this "talent".
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gunsnewing
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7/5/2006  7:09 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by djsunyc:

40+ wins and playoffs

look at it big picture wise - this is his 3rd season with the knicks. he has spent a TON of money and these are all his players (like briggs said). whatever you want to say about lb, that was his 2nd coaching hire. so after 3 seasons, this team should AT THE VERY LEAST, make the playoffs.

40 wins and no playoffs mean failure. 38 wins and playoffs mean failure.

40+ wins and playoffs is what i'm looking for.
I love this! So a 17 win turnaround is your mandate? LOL!
I have to ask this, although I already know the answer, would you have felt the same way about success if Larry "I invented the game with Dr. Naismith" Brown were the coach?
Do you think LB sabotaged the team?
Do you think this roster was really just a 23 win team?


Let the crooked answers begin!!

larry's gone. if you noticed, i haven't mentioned his name in a long long time.

the deal is this - how many games does any coach win with this team last year? now take that number and add 5 more wins (a very conservative improvement). so to me, this team should win 40 games and should be in the playoffs.

40 minus 23 equals 17. so yes, that's my mandate.

it would've been the same if lb stayed (with the same roster).

what if the team wins 35 games. would you be happy? would you call that significant improvement?


I agree unfortunately I don't see us winning 40. More like 37-38 with the way the East has improved
buddapaw
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7/5/2006  7:23 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by martin:
Posted by buddapaw:

Defence is built on teamwork and knowing how each person on the team plays together. How can you keyboard coaches and followers of LARRY BROWN the NBA's COACHING GOD say that last years Knicks had any chance of developing any chemisty through consistent lineup and rotations. All the apple can't be that bad. I've seen games when a players is having a great game then be mysteriously sent to the bench never to return. The young unit usually got the Knick back into the game many times only to be replaced. Open your eyes people! Just because a man has a good track record makes him the end all be all.
The way some of you guys behave it's like it is sacrilidge to speak ill of Larry Brown. The man has some serious flaws!

[Edited by - buddapaw on 07-05-2006 6:11 PM]

how many of the lineup changes were because of injury and/or trades?

I saw many games where effort was lacking. Pure effort is about the indivual. DLee seemed to have given it no matter if he just came off the DNP-CD or whatever.

That is also true, but it is the coaches job to motivate his players(Yes the players are millionaire crybabys that's a given). Another questionable tact is he wanted effort, he begged for effort and the guys that are giving it to him he doesn't reward them. It works both ways, how about coaching effort?

so it's down to coaching effort?

There weren't too many guys who gave 100% effort, and those that did - Malik - we all called for him to sit. Catch 22 I guess.

The thing about Malik is that his game is about defence and rebounding, why is he out there taking so many shots like he is an option on offence. The coach should have curtailed that. Why is that most of our better games happened when we are forced to up the tempo(Pheonix and Dallas games). Yet LB still insisted to bring the ball up slow and call every play in the game, what does this lead to? You guessed it more offensive plays for the opponents. We also have started badly in about 60% of the games early in the season the reason? AD in the starting lineup, that's no offence at the PF, SF (Matt Barnes) SG Q (worst season of his career, when he was in there oft injured). Forcing the ball to Curry(out of shape after heart problems) on almost every possesion was not too bright either. Again I will say this you cannot expect someone to run through walls for you if you constantly berate them and praise their opponents. Just human nature
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fishmike
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7/5/2006  7:29 PM
Posted by buddapaw:
Defence is built on teamwork and knowing how each person on the team plays together.
I'm SOOOOOO sick of hearing this. No disrespect to you personally, because a lot of people say this on this board, and I cant think of anything less important. Defense is about effort, intensity, toughness and effort. Also, effort is pretty big. Our guard dont work hard enough to keep their men in front of them, and our bigs were too slow to cover them.

How many great defenders in the NBA are fat? Come into camp overweight every year? Guys like JJ, Mo Taylor, Francis, Jalen Rose, Curry and Marbury could play together for 40 years and they will still SUCK on defense until they get in shape and are dedicated to playing defense.

good defenders dont need excuses or to be comfortable. They get in their man's face, get physical and look to outwork him all night until he's tired come crunch time and his shots are heavy.

Please
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joec32033
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7/5/2006  7:29 PM
I understand the lineup thing, but if you look deeper there is alot more to it.

Marbury, when healthy started every game. Curry started every game. AD started before he was traded, right before the PF spot became a turnstile. Q was hurt constantly but was our starting SG or SF-we didn't have any better options at SF.

42 is alot of lineups, but I would say at least half of them is from instances that were unavoidable or not Larry's direct doing.
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