Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Rich:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Rich:

21 teams. 'Nuff said.

Rich, nothing personal at all, but anytime someone brings this up I have to say, 21 teams passed on Arenas, some passed twice....what do they have to say?

Saying 21 teams passed on him means absolutely nothing.

Where was Arenas projected to be drafted?

Good question. Being at a small school and not being noticed isn't really the same as a GM consciously passing on you like 21 GMs did for Marcus.

This website has him at 20-http://nbadraft.net/2001mock.htm
Here at 25-http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2001/s/2001/0611/1212447.html
Here at 21-http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/draft/news/2001/06/11/mock_draft/
Here at 22-http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&r=269121&t=16683&page=
Here at 24-http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/01draft/mock.htm
Here at 21-http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_26_225/ai_76134300
Here at 24-http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/draft/news/2001/06/24/mock_draft/
Here at 25-http://tspweb02.tsp.utexas.edu/webarchive/06-27-01/2001062707_s02_2001.html
Here at 24-http://slam.canoe.ca/BasketballCNNSI/nba_draft1-cnnsi.html
Here at 35-http://www.igtc.com/archives/celtics/2000/May/msg00202.html-the only one I found with him dropping to 2nd round.

He was a definate first round pick...not great but definately a first rounder...lowest he went was 25....Highest was 20.....he very clearly, IMO, slipped into the second round.



[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-02-2006 11:21 AM]

So he was projected mid 20s and went early 30s? That's not slipping; that's just an imperfection in projections.

Ok...so Marcus was projected anywhere from 6 to 13 (nbadraft.net had him at 13)....he went at 22 and some of us are angry we didn't take him at 20. Dropping 10-15 spots for Arenas is imperfections in projections. Dropping 10-15 spots for Marcus is there is something wrong with him so we shouldn't have picked him?

Anyone else notice a double sandard there?

[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-02-2006 1:52 PM]

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Rich:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Rich:

21 teams. 'Nuff said.

Rich, nothing personal at all, but anytime someone brings this up I have to say, 21 teams passed on Arenas, some passed twice....what do they have to say?

Saying 21 teams passed on him means absolutely nothing.

Where was Arenas projected to be drafted?

Good question. Being at a small school and not being noticed isn't really the same as a GM consciously passing on you like 21 GMs did for Marcus.

This website has him at 20-http://nbadraft.net/2001mock.htm
Here at 25-http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2001/s/2001/0611/1212447.html
Here at 21-http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/draft/news/2001/06/11/mock_draft/
Here at 22-http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&r=269121&t=16683&page=
Here at 24-http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/01draft/mock.htm
Here at 21-http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_26_225/ai_76134300
Here at 24-http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/draft/news/2001/06/24/mock_draft/
Here at 25-http://tspweb02.tsp.utexas.edu/webarchive/06-27-01/2001062707_s02_2001.html
Here at 24-http://slam.canoe.ca/BasketballCNNSI/nba_draft1-cnnsi.html
Here at 35-http://www.igtc.com/archives/celtics/2000/May/msg00202.html-the only one I found with him dropping to 2nd round.

He was a definate first round pick...not great but definately a first rounder...lowest he went was 25....Highest was 20.....he very clearly, IMO, slipped into the second round.



[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-02-2006 11:21 AM]

So he was projected mid 20s and went early 30s? That's not slipping; that's just an imperfection in projections.

Ok...so Marcus was projected anywhere from 6 to 13 (nbadraft.net had him at 13)....he went at 22 and some of us are angry we didn't take him at 20. Dropping 10-15 spots for Arenas is imperfections in projections. Dropping 10-15 spots for Marcus is there is something wrong with him so we shouldn't have picked him?

Anyone else notice a double sandard there?

[Edited by - joec32033 on 07-02-2006 1:52 PM]

You can't look at the net difference without looking at the actual numbers (or ratio of projected to picked). Having your draft spot double or tripple is very different from going from the 20s to 30s. Surely, for example, going from projected at 7 to picked 21 is not the same as going from projected at 45 to picked at 59.

Of course not, but there are alot of other areas to look at also. For example, the potential of other guys in the draft-the best guys are not always drafted first. Is a fall from the lottery the same as a fall out of the first round-no. Your right, but to just righ off the fact that Arenas did slip is wrong too. Arenas slipped, Marcus slipped. The draft has proven that crappy players do indeed get drafted before some better players, which leads me back to my origional premise that saying "Well 21 teams passed on him, so something must be up" is dead wrong.

I already said with our roster, while Williams was falling, even I doubted about drafting him, so it's not that I have some crazy fascination with him. He was by far the absolute best talent on the board, and even with all our guards we don't have a POINT guard. It does swing 2 ways when it comes to us picking him. I am just arguing the premise that just because 21 teams passed on him means we should pass on him too.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Rich:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Rich:

21 teams. 'Nuff said.

Rich, nothing personal at all, but anytime someone brings this up I have to say, 21 teams passed on Arenas, some passed twice....what do they have to say?

Saying 21 teams passed on him means absolutely nothing.

Where was Arenas projected to be drafted?

Good question. Being at a small school and not being noticed isn't really the same as a GM consciously passing on you like 21 GMs did for Marcus.

who came from a small school? arenas was from AZ

Who said Arenas was from a small school? I was criticizing Joe's claim that being picked late is the same thing as being consciously passed on (see other threads). SOME people picked late are never even noticed rather than noticed and passed on.

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Rich:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Rich:

21 teams. 'Nuff said.

Rich, nothing personal at all, but anytime someone brings this up I have to say, 21 teams passed on Arenas, some passed twice....what do they have to say?

Saying 21 teams passed on him means absolutely nothing.

Where was Arenas projected to be drafted?

Good question. Being at a small school and not being noticed isn't really the same as a GM consciously passing on you like 21 GMs did for Marcus.

who came from a small school? arenas was from AZ

Who said Arenas was from a small school? I was criticizing Joe's claim that being picked late is the same thing as being consciously passed on (see other threads). SOME people picked late are never even noticed rather than noticed and passed on.

Bonn, I missed this post which is why it is out of order from the rest, but I am not arguing that point at all. The case of Williams and Arenas I am using is an example of a different premise I am trying to disprove-Which is 21 teams passed on Williams, something must be wrong.

We seem to be arguing over the semantics of the example when no matter which way that disagreement ends, it still proves the main point I am trying to make.

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by oohah:

Bonn, I missed this post which is why it is out of order from the rest, but I am not arguing that point at all. The case of Williams and Arenas I am using is an example of a different premise I am trying to disprove-Which is 21 teams passed on Williams, something must be wrong.

We seem to be arguing over the semantics of the example when no matter which way that disagreement ends, it still proves the main point I am trying to make.

Joe, its not that something must be wrong, but it certainly is a valid question: Why did 21 teams pass on a player of such a (suypposedly) high caliber?

Sometimes its hard to figure out, like Carlos Boozer. This time I don't find it so astonishing, he's pretty muc aq passer and that's it, he is an unremarkable athlete for the NBA, and he has a mark against him.

What I'd like to know is how he did in his workouts.


oohah

I'm not saying it isn't a vaild question, just not a valid excuse to say this is a reason we didn't pick him....just like saying "Well, Phoenix was gonna pick him if we didn't"-I want a guy we want not a guy we are gonna just grab because another team wants him.

If you want to be this picky with words, who said it was a valid excuse? Who said the only reason (as opposed to one of many) reasons we drafted him was that Phoenix might have been interested?

Posted by oohah:
What I'd like to know is how he did in his workouts.


oohah

Marcus Williams had himself an excellent workout and did it almost without breaking a sweat. In the drills he was the best shooter seen here from distance, and he even turned it up a notch in the shooting competition from the NBA 3-point line, knocking down 9 of his 11 shots from straight in front of the basket, best of anyone here. He looked good shooting while moving both left and right, looking smooth and effortless while doing so. In the spot-up “baseline to baseline” NCAA 3-point contest, he barely missed. His shooting mechanics are a bit on the slow and on the deliberate side, not the most efficient seen here in LA, but it goes in for him very effectively regardless, which is all that really matters. He gets better elevation on his shot when shooting from mid-range than he does from the NBA 3-point line, something that he might have to work on.

If the workout would have ended with the drills we would have come away thinking that Marcus Williams is a pretty good player, but that’s about it. But that’s when the 3 on 3 started…

Williams showed off everything he did during his college career in the half an hour plus that the players went at it in this private workout, looking like every bit the top 10 pick that he was billed as coming in. His superb ball-handling skills were the first thing you noticed, utilizing outstanding footwork and phenomenal change of direction ability, using a series of hesitation moves, and getting by absolutely anyone that attempted to guard him, whenever he pleased. He plays the game at a tempo that is unique only to him, knowing exactly when to speed up and when to slow down, being able to keep the defense honest with a long-range bomb at any moment--even off the dribble--and being in complete control of his body and motions for every second he has the ball in his hands.

When penetrating to the hoop, he uses his strength extremely well to shield the ball with his body and finish strong at the hoop, either with a left-handed floater, an old school lay-up, or a short little pull-up in the lane that we certainly did not see enough of at UConn. His balance and footwork are outstanding and he always keeps himself extremely low to the ground with a playground handle, ready to fire off bullet passes at any moment and in any direction utilizing his massive hands. He goes left or right equally well and will surprise you with a no-look alley-oop lob or a sharp bounce pass to a cutter just as the play starts to develop, always placing the ball in perfect position for his teammate to catch and finish, regardless of the fact that he just started playing with most of the players here and should have no idea what their tendencies are or where they like the ball.

Williams looks like a savvy NBA veteran and plays like one too, showing an “old man’s game” according to one of the people that trained him the most here, Dan Barto, and never looking rattled or out of control. The quiet confidence he shows in himself might be the most impressive thing we came away from, not quite being ****y, but just knowing that he is that good and not being in any rush to prove it beyond what he’s willing to show you at his own pace. His feel for the game was evident throughout the workout, and this is the exact reason he will be able to fit in right away on almost any team in this year’s lottery and contribute heavily as a rookie, especially when you take his size, strength and experience into consideration.

Much has been made about Williams’ conditioning recently, or lack thereof rather, but this was not something that we would have even thought twice about when watching this workout had it not been brought up before. He probably isn’t in the shape of his life, but is in no means fat or out of shape the way he’s been portrayed to be. So much of his game relies on his strength and basketball IQ that he’s been accustomed to not having to be in phenomenal shape, but this is something that will obviously change once he reaches the NBA. What is scary is how easily he gets by players in the shape he is currently in, making you wonder just how lethal he will be once he indeed reaches his full potential as an athlete. Williams told us he is 214 pounds at the moment, not the 220 that is being reported elsewhere.

The only real negative we could take away from this workout was his defense, which looked lackadaisical at best. He needs to become a bit quicker in getting his shot off, but there was absolutely nothing to complain about as far as the results are concerned. Once again, we came away thinking that there is very little doubt in our mind who the best point guard in the draft is. It’s just a shame that NBA teams won’t be able to see what we did in two on two private workouts, but that’s what game footage is for, particularly from the NCAA tournament. The UConn vs. Kentucky game would be a great place to start.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by oohah:

Bonn, I missed this post which is why it is out of order from the rest, but I am not arguing that point at all. The case of Williams and Arenas I am using is an example of a different premise I am trying to disprove-Which is 21 teams passed on Williams, something must be wrong.

We seem to be arguing over the semantics of the example when no matter which way that disagreement ends, it still proves the main point I am trying to make.

Joe, its not that something must be wrong, but it certainly is a valid question: Why did 21 teams pass on a player of such a (suypposedly) high caliber?

Sometimes its hard to figure out, like Carlos Boozer. This time I don't find it so astonishing, he's pretty muc aq passer and that's it, he is an unremarkable athlete for the NBA, and he has a mark against him.

What I'd like to know is how he did in his workouts.


oohah

I'm not saying it isn't a vaild question, just not a valid excuse to say this is a reason we didn't pick him....just like saying "Well, Phoenix was gonna pick him if we didn't"-I want a guy we want not a guy we are gonna just grab because another team wants him.

If you want to be this picky with words, who said it was a valid excuse? Who said the only reason (as opposed to one of many) reasons we drafted him was that Phoenix might have been interested?

How is this being picky? Zeke said he picked him for a few reasons, one of which was PHX was going to pick him-which proved untue. I don't understand exactly what the big thing is here. If Marcus had problems fine. I can live with that.

Even if we took Mardy at 20 and Balkman at 29, I'd be a little upset, because if we had to draft an undersized SF defender, I would have much rather drafted PJ Tucker.

You answered neither of my questions

Other than the fact if you read this thread and about 10 other threads, they answer themselves, but if you want me to hold your hand and walk you through it, ok.

About 5-7 other posters-by name I will mention you and Rich to just name two who have said it in this thread-where this whole dialogue started-, you can do the leg work on the others, have said that 21 other teams have passed on Marcus so something must have been wrong with him and are using that to justify not drafting him.

If you want to be this picky with words, who said it was a valid excuse? Who said the only reason (as opposed to one of many) reasons we drafted him was that Phoenix might have been interested?

Thomas told the New York media that Phoenix was going to scarf up Balkman at 21, http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/14948891.htm

Thomas revealed that the Suns were intent on taking Balkman with the 21st pick only to trade out of the first round when Thomas nabbed the forward first. That didn't stop ESPN analyst Jay Bilas from calling the selection a "stunner" and saying that Balkman was a "second-round draft pick."http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/430980p-363295c.html

There is absolutely no reason for him to say anything like that unless he feels he has to justify the pick. I didn't hear Charlotte say we wanted Morrison because we know Portland wanted him. I didn't hear Atlanta say they drafted Shelden at 5 because Minny wanted him.

Isiah has been here for almost 3 years now and he has never uttered a line without some type of reasoning behind it, some ulterior motive. We both can't argue that.