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Now here is Brown's side....
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Killa4luv
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6/28/2006  11:54 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

it has nothing to do about feelings. how in the blue hell can jalen and francis come back? isiah and dolan said "lb wanted them" and "we probably wouldn't have made the trades." and if they can't be traded, then what incentive do they have to even play hard at all next season? these guys aren't the epitome of professionals. they will sit and pout. and it was VERY unprofessional for an owner and gm to try to distance themselves from both of those guys publicly. the same thing they were blaming brown for, they did themselves.
They blamed Brown for trashing players in the media. They are not trashing those guys. They are simply saying Brown asked for 2 players worth $80 million who they probably would not have made trades for (especially in light of how poorly they were used by Brown). That doesn't mean they suck or are bad players. Theres nothing wrong with saying that. And if Brown had done the job he was supposed to, no one would have had to say it. But its not even close to on par with Brown calling guys delusional and discrediting their universities. You are trying so hard man. Is Brown paying you for this?
him being suprised is totally true. he didn't know dolan was going to tell the press about the 1 year deadline. i didn't "detect" that, that was told to me.
Well if it was told to you, it must be true. ;) Nah, I believe that, its inconsquential really. He didn't sound depressed to me at all though, but I can believe that.

Do you think the story about LB trying to setup/engineer trades is true?
i think that lb called others around the league, who are his friends, and had discussions. but he has no power to engineer a trade but did he have talks, sure, i believe that.
Yes in other words. He is calling his friends/colleagues around the league, and talking abut trading this guy for that guy; making it more difficult for the actual Gm to do his job. Its inappropriate any way you slice it. But I'm sure you'll make up an excuse for him. ONe good thing about this is, in arbitration this can come out. They can site sepcifically who the gm is and who the players were in question. This is proveable.

Do you think he asked them to waive 6 or so players?
waived? maybe. traded? hell yes.
You know it sounds like some LB ****. admit it. Either way, wholesale changes like that are not just a matter of Ok, LB we'll do it. LB devalued those guys so they will be harder to move. He sabotaged himself with his big mouth and by making us lose to prove a point.
Do you think he performed his job in good faith this season?
like fish said, i think he was made promises and they renegged. did he coach with alterior motives? i think he did.
So in your eyes them renigging on promises is a justification to coach in bad faith. If not why are you bringing it up? Coaching with alterior motives? What were those? And by alterior motives, you mean motives other than developing the young players and/or winning? You'd have to mean that, otherwise they wouldn't be alterior.
Do you think he sabotaged the team?
what do you mean by sabotage? i think everything he did this year was to show dolan that we needed to make serious changes to make the team better. is that sabotage? especially when they weren't expecting playoffs this year?
More excuses. By Sabotage I mean did he do things to make us lose? Did he not focus on trying to make us win? If he is trying to show Dolan we need alot of changes, he is trying to make the players look bad and lose games. That is sabotage.
Do you think he requested Jalen Rose & Steve Francis and then didn't play them 3 weeks later like he did David Lee, Channing Frye, and Nate Robinson?

going by his history, he always asks for and the dislikes players. therefore a strong gm must be in place to keep him in check. lb wasn't going to change his ways and the knicks were foolish to think he would. i do not believe he "begged" for francis unless he thought marbury was the one being moved for him. as for why guys played and didn't play, that's open for debate...a debate that we've been having all year.
This debate, along with some others, is kind of like the 'debate' about Global warming, or the 'debate' about evolution. They are only debates because people ignore facts.
Fact: All sides of the party have said that Larry Brown wanted Steve Francis. Isiah, Dolan, Larry Brown, and my behind the scenes source (which I am going to bring out in its own thread).

Why is it so hard for you to admit these things? This is like pulling teeth. You have admitted he sabotaged the team and you were ok with that. Why is LB so much more important than the truth or the team? Why are you willing to contort facts and logic just to show LB in a positive light?

AUTOADVERT
McK1
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6/28/2006  11:55 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

I don't think Isiah will resign. And I think it will be funny how much better this team looks when they aren't playing "the right way."

if you believe Isiah isn't just as much of a stickler think again.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
djsunyc
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6/28/2006  12:08 PM
killa - it's actually very simple and basic to me. lb is a prick. he's a diva. he's high maintenance. he has quirks. he complains. he's a yenta. he's whatever bad word you want to call him. BUT BUT BUT he knows how to coach and he knows how to make a team into a winner. what he needs is a strong support staff and he needs to be positively reinforced constantly (high maintenance). i knew that going in. EVERYBODY knew that going in. and the only thing that makes all of that palatable is that he wins and he's always won. he helps bad teams become good ones.

now, i look at the knicks situation and what do i see? i see a bad gm (my opinion), i see a bad owner (my opinion) and i see bad elements on the team (my opinion). so when you throw all of that into a pot, it's going to be a mess. but out of all the parties involved, only one guy, in their respective position, has been able to succeed throughout his history and that's lb. so when the players start bitching or when isiah starts questioning lb, i put ZERO stock in their opinions b/c they don't know what it takes to win.

it's like with detroit and sheed. sheed was high maintenance but he was able to be absorbed into detroit b/c it was a very strong and stable situation. i think that's what lb needs. a strong and stable situation from the front office. donnie walsh provided that. croce/king provided that. dumars provided that. but dolan and zeke do not (and the evidence for that pre-dates lb).

so for this past season, i didn't care about wins. i didn't care about rotations, lineups, all the criticisms in the media. that meant nothing TO ME b/c i know lb has always been successful and he knows what it takes to win.

but it's obvious that the situation here was not strong enough to handle a coach like lb. and on the flip side, it wasn't strong enough to handle another HOF coach in wilkins. so i ask myself, is it the coach or is it the organization?

again, to me, it's very simple, it's the organization.

i think about it in the big picture, not micromanaging guys starts and dnp's. lb didn't forget how to coach. everything he did was for a reason.

i don't like the guys personality but he's proven to win. same with parcells. riles was a d ck too. pjax is a pompous gas bag. but they win. if marbury led teams to playoffs, nobody would care about the towlie scowlie. it's all about winning and only one guy on this team knows how to do it, from dolan down to the towel boys.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-28-2006 12:09 PM]
crzymdups
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6/28/2006  12:08 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by crzymdups:

I don't think Isiah will resign. And I think it will be funny how much better this team looks when they aren't playing "the right way."

if you believe Isiah isn't just as much of a stickler think again.

oh, I believe he's a stickler, just less of a stubborn idiot.

¿ △ ?
martin
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6/28/2006  12:16 PM
DJ, I think that brick wall is starting to crack... keep banging your head against it.
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BigRedDog
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6/28/2006  12:26 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by joec32033:

ok...now you give me prrof, I gave it to you.

Having gone to law school, I know that's the way the law works. If you're my employee, and I fire you for "for cause," no court is going to come to me and ask me to justify the dismissal. The plaintiff must file a law suit for wrongful termination.

Now perhaps the NBA has different rules, but I haven't see that.

http://www.greenwichtime.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix244794492jun24,0,5128081.story?

[...]

"A clause in Brown's contract gives Brown the right to ask NBA commissioner David Stern to arbitrate any dispute, and it's up to Brown's agent, Joe Glass, to pursue that appeal."


[Edited by - Rich on 06-28-2006 10:27 AM]

I view that as if it was Larry being the one that wanted out of his contract, then that course of action is on Larry. Larry then would be responsible for that(LB was the one who usually wanted out-he was never fired). The Knicks want out of a recognized garaunteed contract, the burden of porof is on them. That is why al the talk of them building a case, because they have the burden of proof on them. They have to prove LB didn't do his job, in order for them to accomplish this.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 06-28-2006 10:48 AM]

It's a guaranteed contract unless Larry breaches it. That's the Knicks position, i.e., firing him "for cause." ("Recognized" has no legal meaning, so I don't know what your point is.)

The burden of proof would normally (in a court of law) be on the plaintiff, which would be Larry (that is beyond dispute), unless Stern has is own rules. Neither you nor I know what process he will use.

Either way, it only becomes an issue once Larry starts the process by appealing the Knicks decision to Stern, as the article I linked states.

Then we can just agree to disagree because there is not one place, source, or reporter that I had read regarding Glass contacting Stern. Every single outlet seems to believe it is up to the Knicks to build it's case and contact Stern...Either or it's really just semantics....it is going to happen, no matter who is gonna contact Stern first.

Every quote I read stated knicks not paying brown and brown would have to file an appeal. From NY Times:Across town, the Knicks' contract dispute with Brown will press forward. Dolan is refusing to pay Brown the $40 million left on his contract, saying he was fired "for cause," over a number of alleged infractions. The contract provides that in the event of a dispute, Commissioner David Stern is the arbitrator.

Brown's lawyers filed paperwork yesterday to make their appeal, according to Brown's agent, Joe Glass. And Stern, who apparently could have declined, intended to decide the case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/28/sports/basketball/28knicks.html
fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
joec32033
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6/28/2006  3:22 PM
Posted by BigRedDog:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by joec32033:

ok...now you give me prrof, I gave it to you.

Having gone to law school, I know that's the way the law works. If you're my employee, and I fire you for "for cause," no court is going to come to me and ask me to justify the dismissal. The plaintiff must file a law suit for wrongful termination.

Now perhaps the NBA has different rules, but I haven't see that.

http://www.greenwichtime.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix244794492jun24,0,5128081.story?

[...]

"A clause in Brown's contract gives Brown the right to ask NBA commissioner David Stern to arbitrate any dispute, and it's up to Brown's agent, Joe Glass, to pursue that appeal."


[Edited by - Rich on 06-28-2006 10:27 AM]

I view that as if it was Larry being the one that wanted out of his contract, then that course of action is on Larry. Larry then would be responsible for that(LB was the one who usually wanted out-he was never fired). The Knicks want out of a recognized garaunteed contract, the burden of porof is on them. That is why al the talk of them building a case, because they have the burden of proof on them. They have to prove LB didn't do his job, in order for them to accomplish this.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 06-28-2006 10:48 AM]

It's a guaranteed contract unless Larry breaches it. That's the Knicks position, i.e., firing him "for cause." ("Recognized" has no legal meaning, so I don't know what your point is.)

The burden of proof would normally (in a court of law) be on the plaintiff, which would be Larry (that is beyond dispute), unless Stern has is own rules. Neither you nor I know what process he will use.

Either way, it only becomes an issue once Larry starts the process by appealing the Knicks decision to Stern, as the article I linked states.

Then we can just agree to disagree because there is not one place, source, or reporter that I had read regarding Glass contacting Stern. Every single outlet seems to believe it is up to the Knicks to build it's case and contact Stern...Either or it's really just semantics....it is going to happen, no matter who is gonna contact Stern first.

Every quote I read stated knicks not paying brown and brown would have to file an appeal. From NY Times:Across town, the Knicks' contract dispute with Brown will press forward. Dolan is refusing to pay Brown the $40 million left on his contract, saying he was fired "for cause," over a number of alleged infractions. The contract provides that in the event of a dispute, Commissioner David Stern is the arbitrator.

Brown's lawyers filed paperwork yesterday to make their appeal, according to Brown's agent, Joe Glass. And Stern, who apparently could have declined, intended to decide the case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/28/sports/basketball/28knicks.html

First time I heard that...every time I heard about the case it was in the context that the Knicks are preparing their case to go to Stern to prove that Larry was fired with cause and they shouldn't have to pay him....I heard it on Mike and Mike, SAS, NYpost, Nydailynews....whatever....like I said, I really don't care one way or the other the bottom line is that they are going to court, whoever initiates it, and we'll go from there.
~You can't run from who you are.~
rvhoss
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6/28/2006  4:13 PM
Rich is correct. Isiah will NOT resign. And LB sabotaged the season when they did not trade marbury as promised before the season.
all kool aid all the time.
joec32033
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6/29/2006  7:55 AM
Rich...seems you were right..first time I have seen or heard that this was the process, but whatever.....good call

Larry files grievance
over firing

BY FRANK ISOLA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Larry Brown formally filed a grievance with the NBA yesterday over the Knicks' decision to stop paying him.

Brown, who was fired as coach a week ago, is owed $40 million from the Knicks. Garden chairman James Dolan claims that he fired Brown for "just cause." The Knicks contend that Brown violated the terms of his contract by trying to consummate trades without Isiah Thomas' approval, criticizing players through the media and failing to return Thomas' phone calls.

Brown has a clause in his contract that designates NBA commissioner David Stern to serve as an arbitrator in case of a financial dispute.

"In the near future, Commissioner Stern will work with both parties to schedule a hearing date," said NBA spokesman Tim Frank.

Stern is not expected to hold a hearing until after July 4.

"We've never done a contract like that before," Dolan said on Monday. "This is a first. It was at his request.

"This is all I'm going to say about it because I can't do that (arbitration) proceeding here with you guys, but I will say that whatever the commissioner decides, whatever it is, if it's to pay him all the money or to pay him none of the money, we will have nothing more to say about it. We will just do what we're told, and that's it. We're moving on."
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/430970p-363288c.html
~You can't run from who you are.~
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