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cap space and lottery picks wins again...
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Anji
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6/21/2006  4:26 PM
YEah, is walker now a player the Knicks should Get....... That is all I'm waiting to hear.

[Edited by - Anji on 06-21-2006 4:27 PM]
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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  4:31 PM
Posted by djsunyc:


actually, miami drafted butler. drafted wade. then got enough cap room to go after brand (which was matched) then signed odom.

they made it to game 7 in the 2nd round that year.

then the next summer came the shaq deal.

they were on their way to good places BEFORE shaq.

yes, but they "got" that cap room by virtue of a player's mistake - not picking up his option.

and they used that cap room to sign Odom, one of Isles' "traditional underachievers."

I never said Miami wasn't going places. I said they made mistakes along on the way and their "plan" of "cap space and lottery picks" was largely a case of taking advantage of opportunity than long-range planning aka "oops, zo retired, our team sucks now we have the 5th pick" and "oops, Carter didn't pick up his option, now we have $10 million in cap space instead of $5 million."

this thread was started bemoaning our lack of long-range planning and pointing to Miami's supposed brilliant long-range planning. I'm sure there would have been some weird thread if Dallas won, too, which would have been a lot more complicated because Dallas has been well over the cap for years, but there would have been one.
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rvhoss
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6/21/2006  4:32 PM
they were on their way to losing in the finals. they weren't on their way to jack...game 7 of the 2nd round is where Indiana was last year, where are they on their way to.

We have the young team that is built to win championships. In less than 3 years we have a starter at every position younger than 26.

Forget the fact that they don't luck into Mourning's REFUSAL to report to a team he was traded to and signing for the league minimum.

Yeah, that was riley's plan.

Riley get's credit for taking a chance on Antoine Walker (who you hated fishy and crucified everyone for suggesting we sign him to the MLE), JWill (chuck first PG with no fundamentals that LB would be proud of, and I'd rather have Crawford), James Posey and I don't even remember who else they got htis off season
AND
Firing their Coach.

He was successful because of his move the last 2 years...anything before Shaq is questionable at best. And the shaq move can be credited more to Kobe and Shaq.

He did recognize something in Wade, and drafted him as a point guard, then moved him to the 2. Another nice riley move.

But long range plan...I'll take Isiah's first 2.5 year's over Riley's first 2.5 years in a second.

And riley was basically on the same hot seat as Zeke is if they didn't win this year, so like I said...

QUIT BASHING MY KIDS!



[Edited by - rvhoss on 06-21-2006 4:41 PM]
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djsunyc
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6/21/2006  4:34 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:


actually, miami drafted butler. drafted wade. then got enough cap room to go after brand (which was matched) then signed odom.

they made it to game 7 in the 2nd round that year.

then the next summer came the shaq deal.

they were on their way to good places BEFORE shaq.

yes, but they "got" that cap room by virtue of a player's mistake - not picking up his option.

and they used that cap room to sign Odom, one of Isles' "traditional underachievers."

I never said Miami wasn't going places. I said they made mistakes along on the way and their "plan" of "cap space and lottery picks" was largely a case of taking advantage of opportunity than long-range planning aka "oops, zo retired, our team sucks now we have the 5th pick" and "oops, Carter didn't pick up his option, now we have $10 million in cap space instead of $5 million."

this thread was started bemoaning our lack of long-range planning and pointing to Miami's supposed brilliant long-range planning. I'm sure there would have been some weird thread if Dallas won, too, which would have been a lot more complicated because Dallas has been well over the cap for years, but there would have been one.

sometimes it takes luck...like the spurs winning the lotto in 97 instead of boston...or us in 1985. but a plan was in place in miami, the luck factor expedited the process but with wade and caron as draft choices, they would be in very good shape this year regardless of the anthony carter option or not.
rvhoss
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6/21/2006  4:43 PM
how come the lakers didn't win and they have butler, Odom and Kobe?

I think Frye is better than Caron as a draft choice.

Ignoring the good things that have occured during the last 30 months to our knick roster is just plain Impatient Hatred.

Curry, Frye, Lee, QRich, Crawford ... Nuff said.
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islesfan
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6/21/2006  4:50 PM
Nobody said that Miami's road to the Championship was Riley's master plan executed perfectly but they left themselves options by keeping their draft picks and having the cap space and a young All Star in Odom to make the Shaq deal.

Where are our options? Where can we find a player like Wade?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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6/21/2006  4:54 PM
Posted by Anji:

Why is it Isiah???? YOu think isiah has a problem with Drafting High ceiling guys and letting them learn and play??? YOu think he is opposed to getting 7 foot small forwards and 6'10 shooting guards, then leting them develop??? YOu think he is against these things and they will change when he is gone???? Would Isiah Keep Camby and Nene???? Would he Keep Spree or trade him for Vanhorn????

Again, I don't like that Dolan wants a playoff team every year. It would be Great in Baseball, but it is really bad in Basket ball.
You're one of the very few who understand that nearly all of the problem rests with Dolan and Cablevision. The other stuff is just a distraction from the real problem.
Solace
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6/21/2006  4:56 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:

So how many championship teams have been built the way Isiah is building this team, by trading away multiple high draft picks and capping themselves out with high priced and historically underachieving players?

You mean like going out and signing Lamar Odom to a $60 million deal?

Lamar Odom was a good signing. If he was on our team, he'd be one of our best contracts.

Not to mention, LA was so high on Odom, it resulted in the Heat getting Shaq.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
rvhoss
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6/21/2006  5:00 PM
I don't see a problem...we're rebuilding and we had a really really bad year.

We have two expiring deals and a ton of youth at every starting position.

Solace says we need a franchise player and a legitimate #2 option.

I say Curry is well on his way to being that franchise player and Frye and Crawford are well on their way to being that legitimate #2 AND #3.

We are rebuilding people...live with it.

Because Curry and Frye and Crawford are better than anybody coming out of the draft this year.

I venture to say give me a better 3 players the same age in the league.
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Solace
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6/21/2006  5:08 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

I don't see a problem...we're rebuilding and we had a really really bad year.

We have two expiring deals and a ton of youth at every starting position.

Solace says we need a franchise player and a legitimate #2 option.

I say Curry is well on his way to being that franchise player and Frye and Crawford are well on their way to being that legitimate #2 AND #3.

We are rebuilding people...live with it.

Because Curry and Frye and Crawford are better than anybody coming out of the draft this year.

I venture to say give me a better 3 players the same age in the league.

Curry, Frye and Craw are going to be our 1, 2 and 3? That may be, but I think the consensus opinion is that that core wouldn't be championship level. Curry hasn't shown me anything that suggests he'd ever make an all-star team, let alone be a franchise player. Our two best players are Marbury and Francis, and the likelihood is that one or both will be gone soon. Neither one is that #1 option on a championship team anyway.

Frye as a legit #2, I could possibly buy. Craw as a legit #3, again, possibly. The thing is that Frye and Craw could be the compliments ... if they were playing next to, say, Dirk. They're not.

I wish I could buy into Curry becoming a franchise player, but... I can't.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
rvhoss
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6/21/2006  5:09 PM
btw...those ages would be:
Curry - 23
Frye - 23
Crawford (theh veteran) - 26

Heck, I'll throw in:
Quentin Richardson - 26
David Lee - 23
Nate Robinson - 22
Jackie Butler - 21 (that's TWENTY ONE!)
Qyntel Woods - 25

Shoot, we have 7 players born in the 70's:
MoT - 29 (expiring, GONE)
Malik Rose - 31 (gone next year)
Jalen Rose - 33 (expiring, GONE)
Steve Francis - 29 (appearently gone)
Jerome James - 31 ()

Marbury - 29 (expires in 3 years, currently best player on the team)

Regardless of what you have to say about the bunch born in the 70's, all our kids are pretty damn good, and that's not the homer in me speaking.
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nyk4ever
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6/21/2006  5:10 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Anji:

Why is it Isiah???? YOu think isiah has a problem with Drafting High ceiling guys and letting them learn and play??? YOu think he is opposed to getting 7 foot small forwards and 6'10 shooting guards, then leting them develop??? YOu think he is against these things and they will change when he is gone???? Would Isiah Keep Camby and Nene???? Would he Keep Spree or trade him for Vanhorn????

Again, I don't like that Dolan wants a playoff team every year. It would be Great in Baseball, but it is really bad in Basket ball.
You're one of the very few who understand that nearly all of the problem rests with Dolan and Cablevision. The other stuff is just a distraction from the real problem.

As much as I am a Brown supporter I would gladly send him out the door if it meant Dolan was going with him. As long as Dolan is staying here I want Brown here.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
rvhoss
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6/21/2006  5:15 PM
I think that Isiah can only be judged by curry in terms of failing as a GM, if Curry doesn't pan out, then he sucks, if he does pan out, he's a genius.

he was right about crawford who in his second year on the team has hushed a few naysayers.

replace Curry with Crawford and you'll basically recreate all of last summer's postings from those that doubted.

I trust Isiah on young talent, he's been dead on with the players we kept.

Everyone throughout the league has basically agreed that Curry is going to be good, and if you have three damn good players, that eliminates the need for a Number 1 and Number 2.

Last year I said we had the same team as detroit, assuming that marbury was billups and crawford was used as Rip was used, but we had nothing down low.

In Zeke's first year, he acquired a back court (marbury, Crawford), in his second year he acquired a front court (curry/frye) along the way picking up role players in JackieB, Qwoods, David Lee, Nate Robinson.

This is his third year, what does he need to acquire?
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PresIke
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6/21/2006  5:27 PM
Posted by TMS:

let's face it guys... Riley made a mess of Miami through some very bad decisions, & it was only because he was able to draft Dwayne Wade that the team set itself up for a brighter future... w/o that, they'd still have a team made up of Odom, Jones & a bunch of other high priced veterans that wouldn't carry them anywhere but a 1st round exit in the playoffs at best... sound familiar?

let's not make Riley out to be some kinda of GM genius here... w/o that Wade draft pick they'd be just another wannabe capped out team in the Eastern Conference.

coaching wise, however, i don't think there's a better guy in the NBA, & that includes Jax & LB.

[Edited by - TMS on 06-21-2006 4:23 PM]

While I agree Riley was able to get a top pick in that amazing 2003 draft the thing is that I think he deserves more credit than you are giving him. While Riley made mistakes early on as GM he made some big moves starting with the drafting of Wade & Butler that clearly have led to this title. Wade os the catalyst for the Heat's success, but what Riley did after Dwayne broke out after his rookie season was risky, but ultimately lead to an NBA title for the Heat. When Ewing was younger we could have done better, but the Knicks organization couldn't get things together until 1991, 6 years after Ewing entered the league. Other teams have also had players like Wade (although I think he is a special player) and couldn't capitalize.

I think it's unfair to diminish what Riley did into purely the luck of the draft (which clearly he did get, in some fairness). Here are some important points why he deserves credit for more than Wade:

Odom was a key signing

1) I believe you are underrating The signing of Odom significantly in turning the Heat into champions, which I believe is the goal of every fan of any team. Riles managed to sign the guy at his lowest value, and traded him along with that overpaid stiff Brian Grant, (which was a bad signing that the Knicks lucked out in not getting) at his highest since he was a rookie, and Butler who's value was the best it had been until this season and when he was drafted.

Odom + Butler + Grant + Heat Playoff Run in 2004 = Shaq

2) This reason is intimately connected to reason #1. Why was Odom's value highest at that time? Because Odom, Wade & Butler had a good payoff run, shocking a few people, despite losing in the second round, and had a lot of NBA experts excited about Miami's future. You say that without Wade Miami is nothing, but that was Odom's high point of his career. Maybe, Riley recognized that Odom and Butler would not have been enough to win the title, and couldn't pass on a chance to get Shaq, when he had the pieces to land him, while keeping the real rising star in Wade. Which is more reason to give Riley credit, because he moved pieces that have since been replaced, while developing Wade and landing Shaq, who clearly the Heat would not have won this year without.

Experts doubted the Shaq trade equaling NBA Title

3) After the trade a lot of NBA people thought that Miami would do well, but didn't think they had enough pieces to win, and questioned whether Shaq was too broken down. Miami did well last season reaching the conference finals to only loose to the defending champion Pistons, who took S.A. to game 7.

Riley's response to Miami's weaknesses in the 2005 off-season was also doubted by experts

4) Riley's bonanza of getting Walker, Payton, Posey & Jason Willians, Zo was criticized as a Dallas & LA Lakers 2003 part deux and was thought to lead to disaster. Well, Miami struggled early on, but clearly the team got along, accepted their roles and ended up winning the title. Those players that Riley signed or traded for all contributed to Miami's championship. While Wade is the man of that team you have to have the right role players. Only one team wins a year so something that Riley did as a GM has to be right.

The NBA is still a team game

5) Again, Wade is the star but it takes more than a star with smarts to win in the NBA. Plenty of teams who are former champions or close to it have a Wade-like player but not the other components to win this year, or it just didn't work out for them. I'm no Riley disciple, because he may have now made it so that Wade is a one man show after the old guys are gone, but this campaign against Miami as undeserving as champion irks me.

[Edited by - PresIke on 06-21-2006 5:29 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 06-21-2006 5:30 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 06-21-2006 5:32 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
oohah
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6/21/2006  5:42 PM
Presike, very good post ^^^,

The Heat did a lot of things right and made the right moves when the chance showed itself. I don't think that can be argued with. Getting Wade was a great pick, and picking up Shaq for everything but Wade was the master stroke, filling in with Mourning, Walker, Payton, and even WILLIAMS, were excellent pickups.

A quick aside, it makes me smirk a little bit when it turns out that Walker and Williams were key players considering they are frequently made into the poster boys for all that is wrong with todays game, and all they did was sacrifice their individual games and play the way they needed to to help their team win a championship. Walker wins before the Celts do, and Williams is the first from the Sacramento bunch, who woulda thunk it?

But I don't think luck should be discounted either. There was the Anthony Johnson thing, and who would have thought that Mourning retiring would become Wade? Who would have thought that Shaq would ever even be available? You don't plan for that, you just hope you have a shot if a guy like that becomes available.

The stars aligned for Miami. And that makes me feel like this.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Solace
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6/21/2006  5:44 PM
PresIke, outstanding post. Much props.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
nixluva
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6/21/2006  6:22 PM
I agree with rvhoss and crzymdups. You can't follow a Miami blueprint, cuz there really wasn't a blue print per se. Like Isiah, Riley had to make a change of direction and he was smart enough to do that when the chance arrived. Isiah couldn't just clean house and lose in order to get a top draft choice, cuz Dolan wouldn't let him. This year we WEREN'T supposed to have a high draft pick, but Larry helped make that happen and in addition he killed our chances of trading guys with his big mouth.

STILL Isiah hasn't been here long. Just 2 FULL seasons and we at least have what we haven't had in a LONG TIME. TALENTED YOUTH. We have Curry and Frye and they're both just 23. We have Steph and Jamal, who if they're allowed to do what they can do are very potent guards. Nate showed that he can be a HUGE spark plug for this team and Lee is a talented rebounder and just the kind of team player we need. He has that glue type of game that brings everything together when he's on the floor. These guys are just starting to make their way in the NBA. Now we also have some decent bench players in Butler and Woods, if Isiah decides to keep them. Add to that the draft picks and exp. contracts we have and we should be able to make a deal to improve this team this offseason.

Too many of us are being swayed by the horrible season and you have to realize that this team is NOT as bad as the record this year. This team is going to be better and i'm hopeful that we can make a deal for the kind of help this team needs.
Bonn1997
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6/21/2006  7:21 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Anji:

Why is it Isiah???? YOu think isiah has a problem with Drafting High ceiling guys and letting them learn and play??? YOu think he is opposed to getting 7 foot small forwards and 6'10 shooting guards, then leting them develop??? YOu think he is against these things and they will change when he is gone???? Would Isiah Keep Camby and Nene???? Would he Keep Spree or trade him for Vanhorn????

Again, I don't like that Dolan wants a playoff team every year. It would be Great in Baseball, but it is really bad in Basket ball.
You're one of the very few who understand that nearly all of the problem rests with Dolan and Cablevision. The other stuff is just a distraction from the real problem.

As much as I am a Brown supporter I would gladly send him out the door if it meant Dolan was going with him. As long as Dolan is staying here I want Brown here.
We agreed 100% until your last three words. I would have said, "As long as Dolan/Cablevision is staying here...nothing else matters--it's beyond hopeless."



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 06-21-2006 7:21 PM]
BRIGGS
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6/21/2006  7:25 PM
--->Add to that the draft picks and exp. contracts we have and we should be able to make a deal to improve this team this offseason.


Isnt this the model of the deal that started this secondary[and brutal] downfall?

Improving off of 20 wins isnt an acheivement unless we win 45+ because of the obscene $$$$$$$$ advantage we have. Isiah has been here long enough to spend more money than other GMs spend in 10 years--everything with IT is an excuse. Even if hes allowed to fire Larry take on more salary trade pikcs for a vet and win 30 games--he'll spin it as something positive--or atleast not his fault.
RIP Crushalot😞
TMS
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6/21/2006  9:44 PM
PresIke, i'm not trying to minimize Riley's pick of Wade at all... merely stating his other bad decisions were what caused the team to be in a position to draft him in the first place... i pointed it out in my earlier post, the whole thing was made possible after he drafted Wade... w/o that, the Heat woulda been in not much better situation than most of the other teams in the Eastern Conference that have no real shot at winning a championship... it's a wonder what you can do when you actually have a TRUE franchise calibre talent to build around... this is why i was so in favor of tanking the season that year of the Lebron draft... players like that don't come along every year.

as for Odom being an important signing, i disagree... how much different is he than some of the overrated, overpaid talent we have playing on our team right now? the fact that the Lakers were forced into making that Shaq trade is not a telling result of the quality of Lamar Odom necessarily... Shaq pretty much forced the Lakers' hand into making that trade... he said it himself, he wanted to go to 2 places, & 1 of them was w/in the same conference as the Lakers... there's no way in Hell Kupchak woulda traded him to a Conference rival... so the Heat were the only other option... they took Odom, Grant & Butler because that's the best package they could get from MIA, nothing more... does Riley deserve credit for making that trade? only in the fact that he did not allow himself to be raped by the Lakers when they had no other choice but to trade Shaq to them... Isiah woulda probably given up 2 unrestricted 1st rounders on top of those players if he were their GM... but other than that the only credit i give to Riles is the fact that his great reputation as a head coach most definitely did have an influence on Shaq's decision, so i give him credit in that regard, & his wise draft choice of D Wade of course set up everything that was to follow.

his trades to get guys like Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, James Posey, Alonzo Mourning & a washed up Gary Payton aren't much different in my eyes than some of the moves Isiah made himself to get overpaid veteran guys like Jalen Rose, Malik Rose, Steve Francis, & Mo Taylor... i mean how does anyone constitute those moves as strokes of genius? if Isiah were to have signed those guys we'd all be mocking him right now too.

again, all i'm saying is that Riley's buildup of the Heat was not a result of any master plan that he set forth when he made all his trades... it was a plan that just developed out of the circumstances that he put the team in after some of the bad moves he had already made... to his credit, he adapted well & jumped on opportunities to improve his team when he could after he nabbed himself a true franchise calibre talent in the draft.

[Edited by - TMS on 06-21-2006 9:57 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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