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Bippity10
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6/16/2006  2:58 PM
holfresh: You are amazing. When have I given Brown a pass? Honestly you are boring to talk to. I write over and over and over again, and you convince yourself that I give Larry a pass. How many times in one post do I have to say a guy stunk this year for you to say I'm not giving the guy a pass.

It's simple. For you it's LB vs. everyone else. You either hate LB or you hate the players. I personally have defended Marbs AND LB. I have argued for 1000 posts on here about how Marbs was not to blame(although I still think he needs to make changes)They are not the problem. It is the organization that will not build to the players/coachs/organizations strengths. Instead just slaps people together. It's not about LB to me. It's about an organization making mistake after mistake after mistake and then scapegoating the coach or star player thus once again ignoring the true issue of building.

I can't make it anymore clear to you. For the sake of the Knicks I don't care if LB stays or gos. I just want to see a plan. For the sake of our conversations I hope they fire LB so that I don't have to listen to you half read posts and make inane responses that have nothing to do with what I just posted.

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 06-16-2006 2:59 PM]
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Bippity10
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6/16/2006  3:01 PM
"Why does it have to be one way or the other with you people. We won 23 games, THEY ALL STUNK!!!! All of them, coach included. Why must we find one guy to blame all the time. LB stunk"

This is an exact quote from my prior post. So either you just like to flame, or you don't read, or you can't read. I don't know which one it is and I won't predict. I will say either way it's so repetitive that I find it boring.
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holfresh
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6/16/2006  3:04 PM


Bip, I AM NOT SAYING IT IS OK TO QUIT....I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT...The players should play hard at all times...But the point that you are consistantly missing is that IT IS NOT OK FOR THE COACH TO QUIT EITHER...You never address that issue..The coach quit the team Bip, it's true....Management thinks as much Bip, not only me...I have been saying this since February...I have been singing the same tune even before the players quit...I have been saying larry isn't trying to win games from my first post and now it seems like management thinks as much....
holfresh
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6/16/2006  3:07 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

"Why does it have to be one way or the other with you people. We won 23 games, THEY ALL STUNK!!!! All of them, coach included. Why must we find one guy to blame all the time. LB stunk"

This is an exact quote from my prior post. So either you just like to flame, or you don't read, or you can't read. I don't know which one it is and I won't predict. I will say either way it's so repetitive that I find it boring.



My point is, it's not an issue of stinking....If it was about stinking, we would give Larry a pass given his track record, but it was intentional...He purposely tanked it....That has nothing to do with stinking...
Bippity10
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6/16/2006  3:13 PM
Okay and that's your opinion. Others don't feel that way. I feel MoT quit. I feel Francis quit. I feel Jalen quit. I feel Curry and JJ never really tried. But I'm not going to come on here and say they did it on purpose in some sort of vindictive plot. LB's methods did not work. But I will not go on record and say he purposefully lost games. That's your opinion. Not mine.

This is what I feel. Your organization as no route to success.They slap talented people(coach's and players) together with no coherent plan. When it doesn't work they search for one individual to blame in order ot save their own hides and divert attention from the fact that they just slapped a roster together. Fans like you fall for it every year. LB was horrible this year. Let's pretend that his purpose was 100% to lose every game this year. That does not explain why your team has been misserable since 2001. Holfresh: bigger picture. LB is just another mistake. Another possibly positive move we did not build upon. Another star brought in that will collect a huge paycheck despite leading us no where. I DON'T CARE ABOUT LB. ONly you do.

My point with LB never changes. Fire him and move on. Or stick with him, understand who he is and get HIM HIS PLAYERS.
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Bippity10
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6/16/2006  3:15 PM
"I really have a hard time understanding how a team can be committed ti winning when the coach isn't committed to winning"

I misinterpreted this sentence I guess. I apologize for that.
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newyorknewyork
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6/16/2006  3:20 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

newyork: When is it the right season to start building for long term success instead of doing everything we can to make the 8th seed?

Disclaimer: This question has nothing to do with LB and everything to do with the next 2 or 3 moves our GM makes

Any season that you don't have to give another team an unprotected lottery pick.

I would have trusted Larry Brown to have made the 8th seed, but not have gotten fooled into thinking we were one player away. And stuck to the plan to just make playoffs untill we are out of cap hell. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PLAN WITH ISIAH AND BROWN. And Brown could have kept Isiah in check. With Brown actually coaching to win and winning some games. Isiah would have given more power to Browns view in how the roster should be. We could make small moves to mold a contender down the road. But nothing that added long term salary. Then after these contracts of untradable players are gone we could then be in position and have the flexability to get Brown everything he needs to make us a contender.
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Bonn1997
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6/16/2006  3:22 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Bippity10:

The disclaimer at the bottom was specifically written so that people like you would once again not jump to conclusions as to what my opinion was.



Bip it has been your contention since I began posting that the team quit on Larry Brown...My contention has been always Larry was the first to quit on him team

We'll never know which party quit first and I don't care anyway. The fact that they all (players and Larry) quit is disgusting and deserves no place in the organization.
djsunyc
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6/16/2006  3:32 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bippity10:

newyork: When is it the right season to start building for long term success instead of doing everything we can to make the 8th seed?

Disclaimer: This question has nothing to do with LB and everything to do with the next 2 or 3 moves our GM makes

Any season that you don't have to give another team an unprotected lottery pick.

I would have trusted Larry Brown to have made the 8th seed, but not have gotten fooled into thinking we were one player away. And stuck to the plan to just make playoffs untill we are out of cap hell. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PLAN WITH ISIAH AND BROWN. And Brown could have kept Isiah in check. With Brown actually coaching to win and winning some games. Isiah would have given more power to Browns view in how the roster should be. We could make small moves to mold a contender down the road. But nothing that added long term salary. Then after these contracts of untradable players are gone we could then be in position and have the flexability to get Brown everything he needs to make us a contender.

you mean when he's coaching from a wheelchair? or did you mean larry brown junior b/c cap room ain't happening til 2009 at the earliest.

i don't know what happened this season but it's obvious to everyone that lb did what he did for a reason. what that reason is, i'm not sure but he did it for a reason.

maybe he did it b/c he wanted full power?
maybe he did it b/c isiah renegged on some promises?

who knows. but it's now june. make a decision - either keep him or dump him.

what would i do? for me there are two options: 1. fire isiah AND lb or 2. give lb the keys and let him drive but under no circumstances should isiah be allowed to remain with lb gone.
Bippity10
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6/16/2006  3:35 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bippity10:

newyork: When is it the right season to start building for long term success instead of doing everything we can to make the 8th seed?

Disclaimer: This question has nothing to do with LB and everything to do with the next 2 or 3 moves our GM makes

Any season that you don't have to give another team an unprotected lottery pick.

I would have trusted Larry Brown to have made the 8th seed, but not have gotten fooled into thinking we were one player away. And stuck to the plan to just make playoffs untill we are out of cap hell. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PLAN WITH ISIAH AND BROWN. And Brown could have kept Isiah in check. With Brown actually coaching to win and winning some games. Isiah would have given more power to Browns view in how the roster should be. We could make small moves to mold a contender down the road. But nothing that added long term salary. Then after these contracts of untradable players are gone we could then be in position and have the flexability to get Brown everything he needs to make us a contender.

NewYork under normal circumstances I would agree with you. But we have to pay attention to what is going on for the past few years. Every time we play for a playoff spot and wait for our contracts to run out, what happens? They trade those contracts that are running out and add more salary. It's a big lie. Going by history they will jettison D.Lee and Frye in an instant to try to get another "star" to add to the roster.

It's this mentality that we are trying to change. It's this mentality that we must target instead of figuring out which coach or player is to blame ofr our losses. Eveyr year it is who is to blame, never how can we build. Let's come up with an organizational philosophy, hire a coach that fits that philosophy and then stick with and support him regardless of whether we make the playoffs or not. We are making all our decisions based on whether we can be mediocre enough to make the 8th seed, while we wait for our contracts to run out(theoretically of course)

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 06-16-2006 3:38 PM]
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Bippity10
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6/16/2006  3:36 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bippity10:

newyork: When is it the right season to start building for long term success instead of doing everything we can to make the 8th seed?

Disclaimer: This question has nothing to do with LB and everything to do with the next 2 or 3 moves our GM makes

Any season that you don't have to give another team an unprotected lottery pick.

I would have trusted Larry Brown to have made the 8th seed, but not have gotten fooled into thinking we were one player away. And stuck to the plan to just make playoffs untill we are out of cap hell. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PLAN WITH ISIAH AND BROWN. And Brown could have kept Isiah in check. With Brown actually coaching to win and winning some games. Isiah would have given more power to Browns view in how the roster should be. We could make small moves to mold a contender down the road. But nothing that added long term salary. Then after these contracts of untradable players are gone we could then be in position and have the flexability to get Brown everything he needs to make us a contender.

you mean when he's coaching from a wheelchair? or did you mean larry brown junior b/c cap room ain't happening til 2009 at the earliest.

i don't know what happened this season but it's obvious to everyone that lb did what he did for a reason. what that reason is, i'm not sure but he did it for a reason.

maybe he did it b/c he wanted full power?
maybe he did it b/c isiah renegged on some promises?

who knows. but it's now june. make a decision - either keep him or dump him.

what would i do? for me there are two options: 1. fire isiah AND lb or 2. give lb the keys and let him drive but under no circumstances should isiah be allowed to remain with lb gone.

Good post DJ. I agree with everything you said.
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Bippity10
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6/16/2006  3:42 PM
Bottom line is I'm still waiting for a god dam-n contract to run out. Been waiting for a long time. It's a lie.......Most of us feel that the best way to get a title here is to tear down most of what we have. I'm guessing LB felt the same way. I'm guessing management does not like this theory isntead they want to continue to go the 8th seed, contracts run out(that never seem to), one player away philosophy. As a fan base we unknowingly follow philosophy number 2 and have been doing it since the Layden days. Someday somebody is going to make us change. I thought 23 wins would be the catalyst that caused a rebuild and change of philosophy. I guess it's going to take a few more years of mediocrity, then another crash before we figure it out.
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djsunyc
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6/16/2006  3:47 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Bottom line is I'm still waiting for a god dam-n contract to run out. Been waiting for a long time. It's a lie.......Most of us feel that the best way to get a title here is to tear down most of what we have. I'm guessing LB felt the same way. I'm guessing management does not like this theory isntead they want to continue to go the 8th seed, contracts run out(that never seem to), one player away philosophy. As a fan base we unknowingly follow philosophy number 2 and have been doing it since the Layden days. Someday somebody is going to make us change. I thought 23 wins would be the catalyst that caused a rebuild and change of philosophy. I guess it's going to take a few more years of mediocrity, then another crash before we figure it out.

at a season subscriber q & a at the end of the 04/05 season, i spoke with isiah about the salary cap and asked him when are we going to stop doing what we're doing. he said that superstars get traded in his league and that they're going to continue to spend. all of this BS will try to yield us some sort of "star" player. the flaw is that usually this "star" player has baggage attached. i dont doubt for a second that if jermaine o'neal is available, frye is gone. i don't doubt for a second that if kg is available, frye is gone. then when we make those 2nd rounds and fans are going nuts, isiah will be standing in the aisle smiling as if he's the messiah. then when 2009 rolls around and we're back to a 30-35 win team, left with no young players, we'll be standing around scratching our head saying "wtf just happened?"
nixluva
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6/16/2006  4:14 PM
Lets get some clarity on this for a minute. Larry made it clear that he wasn't really TRYING to win games as much as he was trying to learn his roster at the start of the season. He said as much and his actions proved that. Why would he even entertain the idea of starting guys in their home town's. That's an exhibition mentality,

Someone asked how come LB didn't just change the lineup during the streak and the basically the entire 10 game stretch when the team was playing better, if he was so intent to ruin the season. Well, he had no choice once the team started to play better. He KNEW he'd get KILLED in the media if he messed with the line up after the team had just played well. He couldn't stand the fact that the team was playing so well, while playing a style closer to what Steph and the players wanted to do all along. His biggest break was when Steph got injured and he could regain control of the team. The next game they played the Bulls and lost by 2 in OT with pretty much the same lineup minus Steph, then they got waxed by the Pistons with a lineup of Jamal, Nate, Frye, Lee and Curry. After that game LB started going nuts with the roster again. He CLEARLY should've stuck with that lineup for a while to give the players a chance to jell. He totally made the wrong decisions all year.

To me its clear that if this team is run by a coach who REALLY like the players and wants to win, that they will be able to play at a much higher level than they did this year. These players WANT to be led and WANT to win, but they can't have a coach working against them. I can't wait for this upcoming season to finally see what these players can really do. We didn't get a chance to see that this year and I blame Larry for a lot of that. NOT ALL of IT but a LOT of it.
holfresh
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6/16/2006  4:36 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Lets get some clarity on this for a minute. Larry made it clear that he wasn't really TRYING to win games as much as he was trying to learn his roster at the start of the season. He said as much and his actions proved that. Why would he even entertain the idea of starting guys in their home town's. That's an exhibition mentality,

Someone asked how come LB didn't just change the lineup during the streak and the basically the entire 10 game stretch when the team was playing better, if he was so intent to ruin the season. Well, he had no choice once the team started to play better. He KNEW he'd get KILLED in the media if he messed with the line up after the team had just played well. He couldn't stand the fact that the team was playing so well, while playing a style closer to what Steph and the players wanted to do all along. His biggest break was when Steph got injured and he could regain control of the team. The next game they played the Bulls and lost by 2 in OT with pretty much the same lineup minus Steph, then they got waxed by the Pistons with a lineup of Jamal, Nate, Frye, Lee and Curry. After that game LB started going nuts with the roster again. He CLEARLY should've stuck with that lineup for a while to give the players a chance to jell. He totally made the wrong decisions all year.

To me its clear that if this team is run by a coach who REALLY like the players and wants to win, that they will be able to play at a much higher level than they did this year. These players WANT to be led and WANT to win, but they can't have a coach working against them. I can't wait for this upcoming season to finally see what these players can really do. We didn't get a chance to see that this year and I blame Larry for a lot of that. NOT ALL of IT but a LOT of it.



Totally agree with you there, I do hold the players accountable as well, they need to play hard no matter what the circumstances, it's just part of being a professional...I'm incensed because we miss out a year of not knowing what we really have...We don't know what two players could have developed a chemistry that we could build upon..I would have loved to see Steph and Frye run the pick and roll..It's been a total throw away season with lots of blame to go around, but I think it starts at with the guy in charge of the locker room, Larry Brown....
BlueSeats
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6/16/2006  4:50 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Lets get some clarity on this for a minute. Larry made it clear that he wasn't really TRYING to win games as much as he was trying to learn his roster at the start of the season. He said as much and his actions proved that. Why would he even entertain the idea of starting guys in their home town's. That's an exhibition mentality,

I'm not gonna dig up a quote but I think he was saying it usually takes him 20 games or so to get a handle on players, defining roles and coming up with an appropriate style of play. That's different than not trying to win.

But on this team devoid of leaders and replete with redundancies, sorting all that out took more time than usual.

What you guys don't seem to get is that the objective wasn't a race to get somewhere first, it was to eventually build the biggest building. As such he worked on the foundation first, while you want him to just start throwing bricks onto whatever was there.
Someone asked how come LB didn't just change the lineup during the streak and the basically the entire 10 game stretch when the team was playing better, if he was so intent to ruin the season. Well, he had no choice once the team started to play better. He KNEW he'd get KILLED in the media if he messed with the line up after the team had just played well. He couldn't stand the fact that the team was playing so well, while playing a style closer to what Steph and the players wanted to do all along. His biggest break was when Steph got injured and he could regain control of the team.

Nice little conspiracy theory, based on nothing. Pity the team didn't start to play hard and win sooner and sustain winning or we wouldn't be making up all these "he tanked it" theories to cover for the fact that guys came up with lame effort, leadership and execution, time after time.

Kinda like they did the year before when they went 17-39 after Marbury declared himself "the best."
The next game they played the Bulls and lost by 2 in OT with pretty much the same lineup minus Steph, then they got waxed by the Pistons with a lineup of Jamal, Nate, Frye, Lee and Curry. After that game LB started going nuts with the roster again. He CLEARLY should've stuck with that lineup for a while to give the players a chance to jell. He totally made the wrong decisions all year.

he couldn't stay with the same lineup as the win streak because Marbury was injured and AD got suspended then traded. And along came the harassment suit and the trade deadline with it's rumors and new acquisitions, and the bottom fell out.
To me its clear that if this team is run by a coach who REALLY like the players and wants to win, that they will be able to play at a much higher level than they did this year. These players WANT to be led and WANT to win, but they can't have a coach working against them. I can't wait for this upcoming season to finally see what these players can really do. We didn't get a chance to see that this year and I blame Larry for a lot of that. NOT ALL of IT but a LOT of it.

And I blame Marbury for resisting the coach at every opportunity and Isiah for enabling him. I blame guys for coming into camp injured and out of shape. I blame the GM for shortchanging the coach on player aquisitions. I blame the veterans for not providing will and leadership, etc.

There are so many failures that collided it's ridiculous to try to single things out. But early in the season when you were sure everything was going to work out I was saying that I don't think we'll ever know what this team is capable of until we were are free of Marbury's disruptive force and the ties that bind him with Isiah. So between us, in the battle of who needs to be gotten rid of to see what this team is capable of it's Brown vs Marbury. Pick your Poisonbury.
holfresh
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6/16/2006  5:09 PM

At least Marbs didn't tank the season...Is there a more poisonous personality in the Knick organization than that of Larry Brown...Like Marbs, he is hated everywhere he goes and not because of his coaching..





[Edited by - holfresh on 06-16-2006 5:12 PM]
BlueSeats
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6/16/2006  5:19 PM
Posted by holfresh:


At least Marbs didn't tank the season...

I disagree with both your assertions

A) that brown did

B) that marbury didn't
Is there a more poisonous personality in the Knick organization than that of Larry Brown...Like Marbs, he is hated everywhere he goes and not because of his coaching..

Brown is revered by many of his ex-teammates and assistants. They credit him for making him the quality players and coaches they became.

Kinda the opposite of Marbs, who most former teammates and coaches feel a stiff "good riddance" for.
Bonn1997
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6/16/2006  5:38 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


At least Marbs didn't tank the season...

I disagree with both your assertions

A) that brown did

B) that marbury didn't
I definitely don't think Marbury tanked the whole season, probably closer to 50% of it. In a minority of games, he did try hard on defense and try to distribute the ball well. I don't think Larry tried to win one game, although it accidentally happened 23 times.

holfresh
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6/16/2006  5:41 PM


Everything that Brown did this season says he tanked the season for a planned coup...You just refuse see the hand writing on the wall...You need to see it in writing and sealed with Brown's blood to believe it...

Brown is reverd for his coaching ability..Think about this, Dolan is willing to pay him 40 mil to get lost...It's the second consecutive year an owner just wants him gone..Davidson paid him 7 mil to leave, think about that...
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