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Islesfan, Fish....for the last time....Brown Wanted Francis & Rose
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Bonn1997
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6/15/2006  3:29 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bonn1997:
The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this
If you watched Larry's rotations this year, you'd have to conclude that he likes overpaid, lazy veterans a lot more than hardworking young players.


These were his top 5 minute getters, with frye missing the end of the season to injury.

CRAWFORD
MARBURY
CURRY
I rest my case
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BlueSeats
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6/15/2006  3:43 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bonn1997:
The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this
If you watched Larry's rotations this year, you'd have to conclude that he likes overpaid, lazy veterans a lot more than hardworking young players.


These were his top 5 minute getters, with frye missing the end of the season to injury.

CRAWFORD
MARBURY
CURRY
I rest my case

Yeah sure. Let me guess, if in preseason I told you we should start Nate over Marbury and Butler over curry you'd have supported it? And Dolan and Isiah would too?

If draftees are more important to the team than Marbury and Curry why did we trade 4 potential lottery picks for them?





[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-15-2006 4:13 PM]
crzymdups
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6/15/2006  3:48 PM
Brown used guys like Malik and Mo Taylor in crunch time, leading to the perception that he was using them much more than the rookies. The rookies also got to play in a LOT of garbage time scenarios when we were getting blown out by 30 - holes that guys like Malik and MoT helped dig.

Nate played plenty. Lee and Frye probably should have played more, given our lack of quality forwards.
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BlueSeats
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6/15/2006  3:51 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bonn1997:
The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this
If you watched Larry's rotations this year, you'd have to conclude that he likes overpaid, lazy veterans a lot more than hardworking young players.


These were his top 5 minute getters, with frye missing the end of the season to injury.

CRAWFORD
MARBURY
CURRY
FRYE
NATE

Glad to see you finally call Steph the lazy overpaid guy that he is, but who else fits?

I would like to see the "top 5 minute getters" for the first 41 games.

Sure, I'd love to see someone else do some homework.

But what difference does it make? Do you really think Dolan was willing to amass a 125M roster and trade so many first round picks in order to watch late round draft picks lead our club? Why is it that Larry played frye more than Sweets in spite of injury and nate more than ariza even though he had marbury, JC, QR and francis in front to him and Ariza only had TT who was having his worst pro season ever. And this was in a year when we had no draft pick vs a year where tanking for lottery position made sense?

If isiah and Dolan are so into throwing kids out there to bear the brunt of all this NY glare and pressure why didn't it happen before Brown, when they played dominatrix with lenny and herb?

If the aforementioned "overpaid lazy veterans" got the bulk of the minutes when the season was still viable, it would tend to indicate that Larry did foresake the kids when the goal of the season from the outset should have been to develop them.

You dodged all my questions and the homework you offered.

And not throwing rookies out under the cruel NYC spotlight to carry the burden of this franchise is not 'forsaking' them, it's developing them on a far more natural schedule.

Now please answer these questions:

Do you really think Dolan/Isiah was willing to amass a 125M roster and trade so many first round picks in order to watch late round draft picks lead our club?

Why is it that Larry played frye more than Sweets in spite of injury and nate more than ariza even though he had marbury, JC, QR and francis in front to him and Ariza only had TT who was having his worst pro season ever. And this was in a year when we had no draft pick vs a year where tanking for lottery position made sense!


If isiah and Dolan are so into throwing kids out there to bear the brunt of all this NY glare and pressure why didn't it happen before Brown, when they played dominatrix with lenny and herb?
crzymdups
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6/15/2006  4:13 PM
If isiah and Dolan are so into throwing kids out there to bear the brunt of all this NY glare and pressure why didn't it happen before Brown, when they played dominatrix with lenny and herb?

we never had talented rookies like Frye, Lee and Nate under Lenny and Herb. Ariza was a solid energy kid worth developing. Sweetney was always in foul trouble - though to be fair, he didn't play at all under Layden/Chaney, at least Zeke and Lenny took a look at him.
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fishmike
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6/15/2006  4:15 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:


Lets say it all together.

Isiah traded for Francis
Isiah traded for Jale Rose.

yeah, if you say it enough times, we may actually believe. oh wait, no. because anyone paying attention who doesn't have some sort of agenda knows that Larry CAMPAIGNED for Jalen Rose. So please, just drop this. You can make a heck of a case against Isiah, but those trades have just as much to do with Brown.

Here's the biggest case against Isiah: he hired Larry Brown.
didnt Larry ask to have Iverson traded? Didnt he ask to have Billups traded? Why werent they traded? Was it because the GM knew better and told Larry to make the relationship work? What happened after that? Oh yea... silly me. Real teams, real GMs.. .this is Knick land and we have Isiah.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/15/2006  4:21 PM
Isiah is a survivor, thats why he will never coach his own roster. If he does I will be amazed. Lenny flat out told Isiah to please DONT trade KVH and Doleac. He point blank said this in a recent interview. He said he felt very good about how they were playing and that was the best Knicks "team" we have seen under Isiah. He blew off Lenny, traded them both, we got swept out of the playoffs when fugazy got hurt and a month into the next season Isiah fired Lenny's head assistant.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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6/15/2006  4:23 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:


Lets say it all together.

Isiah traded for Francis
Isiah traded for Jale Rose.

yeah, if you say it enough times, we may actually believe. oh wait, no. because anyone paying attention who doesn't have some sort of agenda knows that Larry CAMPAIGNED for Jalen Rose. So please, just drop this. You can make a heck of a case against Isiah, but those trades have just as much to do with Brown.

Here's the biggest case against Isiah: he hired Larry Brown.
didnt Larry ask to have Iverson traded? Didnt he ask to have Billups traded? Why werent they traded? Was it because the GM knew better and told Larry to make the relationship work? What happened after that? Oh yea... silly me. Real teams, real GMs.. .this is Knick land and we have Isiah.

Actually, the Iverson trade almost went through. Philadelphia can thank Matt Geiger's no trade clause for that one not happening. That's the only thing that stopped it.

And, yeah, Brown tried to trade Billups after Billups was named Finals MVP. Davidson told him to shut up. Then he fired Brown.

Noticing a pattern yet?
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crzymdups
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6/15/2006  4:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Isiah is a survivor, thats why he will never coach his own roster. If he does I will be amazed. Lenny flat out told Isiah to please DONT trade KVH and Doleac. He point blank said this in a recent interview. He said he felt very good about how they were playing and that was the best Knicks "team" we have seen under Isiah. He blew off Lenny, traded them both, we got swept out of the playoffs when fugazy got hurt and a month into the next season Isiah fired Lenny's head assistant.

Ironically, KVH got injured that same season and has never been as good since then. And a big part of the reason that trade went down was to get Nazr. Many people seem to forget that Dikembe was playing great for us, but missed the rest of the season with stomach surgery and that was a big aspect of the trade. But whatever, spin away, spin spin spin.

I thought the Knicks team that won 6 in a row earlier this season was playing a lot better and a far more sustainable brand of basketball than the KVH/Marbury/not much else Knicks.
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Bippity10
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6/15/2006  4:29 PM
That's all the Knicks have to do is play well for 6 games and we forget them for all their sins.

If that's the case wasn't LB coaching for those 6 gmaes? Does that mean he had a great season?

Our team won 23 games and quit embarrassingly. They were blown out of games constantly because they did nto come to play. This team has a looooooong way to go.
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crzymdups
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6/15/2006  4:32 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

That's all the Knicks have to do is play well for 6 games and we forget them for all their sins.

If that's the case wasn't LB coaching for those 6 gmaes? Does that mean he had a great season?

Our team won 23 games and quit embarrassingly. They were blown out of games constantly because they did nto come to play. This team has a looooooong way to go.

Marbury got injured at the end of that streak and things flew into the crapper. Yes, the way the entire team handled itself after the Marbury injury was embarassing.
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Bippity10
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6/15/2006  4:40 PM
That's the excuse. Marbs got hurt so we couldn't play anymore. How fragile is this team? Are we sure that we want to move forward with a team that quits for 3 months after one player gets hurt in February. What happens when someone sprains their ankle or gets an upset tummy wummy come playoff time. We need tougher players or we are always going to be disappointed and blaming the coach for our shortcomings.

At some point we have to make a stand. It hasn't happened since JVG was here. You don't have to like the coach. You can be confused with your role. You can hate the system. You can hate everything about life. You can be suicidal. But when you are on the court you are being paid millions of dollars to give your best effort. In NY why are we settling for less. Charlie Ward would be the least talented player on this team and I would take him over everybody. Enough of this crap. If you don't play hard you are not a Knick. We don't hate you, but you can't be on our team. You can hate the coach but if you don't listen you are not a Knick. It's time to take our team back and stop letting guys who have lead us to 20-35 wins a year run the asylum!!!!! When will NY fans get sick of this cycle and realize it's not the coach.

Don Chaney had the worst roster in the last 17 years here and still that team played their arses off. That coach never said a word and we fired him. Lenny Wilkens had us playing the best ball since Patrick. We traded his players, fired his coaches and then fired him. Herb Williams a young guy who was going to make mistakes. Never even given a chance. Hire a hall of fame coach coming off two finals appearaances and fire him. All the while we continue to lose. Maybe it's time to try a new method of improving because bringing in new coach's is not getting it done.
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nyk4ever
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6/15/2006  4:45 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

That's the excuse. Marbs got hurt so we couldn't play anymore. How fragile is this team? Are we sure that we want to move forward with a team that quits for 3 months after one player gets hurt in February. What happens when someone sprains their ankle or gets an upset tummy wummy come playoff time. We need tougher players or we are always going to be disappointed and blaming the coach for our shortcomings.

At some point we have to make a stand. It hasn't happened since JVG was here. You don't have to like the coach. You can be confused with your role. You can hate the system. You can hate everything about life. You can be suicidal. But when you are on the court you are being paid millions of dollars to give your best effort. In NY why are we settling for less. Charlie Ward would be the least talented player on this team and I would take him over everybody. Enough of this crap. If you don't play hard you are not a Knick. We don't hate you, but you can't be on our team. You can hate the coach but if you don't listen you are not a Knick. It's time to take our team back and stop letting guys who have lead us to 20-35 wins a year run the asylum!!!!! When will NY fans get sick of this cycle and realize it's not the coach.

Don Chaney had the worst roster in the last 17 years here and still that team played their arses off. That coach never said a word and we fired him. Lenny Wilkens had us playing the best ball since Patrick. We traded his players, fired his coaches and then fired him. Herb Williams a young guy who was going to make mistakes. Never even given a chance. Hire a hall of fame coach coming off two finals appearaances and fire him. All the while we continue to lose. Maybe it's time to try a new method of improving because bringing in new coach's is not getting it done.

Amen. This is the single greatest post in UltimateKnicks history.
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crzymdups
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6/15/2006  4:48 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

That's the excuse. Marbs got hurt so we couldn't play anymore. How fragile is this team? Are we sure that we want to move forward with a team that quits for 3 months after one player gets hurt in February. What happens when someone sprains their ankle or gets an upset tummy wummy come playoff time. We need tougher players or we are always going to be disappointed and blaming the coach for our shortcomings.

At some point we have to make a stand. It hasn't happened since JVG was here. You don't have to like the coach. You can be confused with your role. You can hate the system. You can hate everything about life. You can be suicidal. But when you are on the court you are being paid millions of dollars to give your best effort. In NY why are we settling for less. Charlie Ward would be the least talented player on this team and I would take him over everybody. Enough of this crap. If you don't play hard you are not a Knick. We don't hate you, but you can't be on our team. You can hate the coach but if you don't listen you are not a Knick. It's time to take our team back and stop letting guys who have lead us to 20-35 wins a year run the asylum!!!!! When will NY fans get sick of this cycle and realize it's not the coach.

Don Chaney had the worst roster in the last 17 years here and still that team played their arses off. That coach never said a word and we fired him. Lenny Wilkens had us playing the best ball since Patrick. We traded his players, fired his coaches and then fired him. Herb Williams a young guy who was going to make mistakes. Never even given a chance. Hire a hall of fame coach coming off two finals appearaances and fire him. All the while we continue to lose. Maybe it's time to try a new method of improving because bringing in new coach's is not getting it done.

Lenny had us playing our best ball since Patrick? okay, we're not living in the same reality so a discussion is going to be hard.
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Bippity10
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6/15/2006  4:54 PM
When Marbs was traded here. That line-up with Marbs, KT, Van Horn, Doleac and the crew was playing near .600 ball. It was more inspired play then the Sprewell lead playoff teams which I pointed out in 2000 was leading us downward. Unfortunately those players did not get to play together long enough for us to get a real sample. Outside of 2000 can't really think of anotehr time period where we played good basketball in the last 5 or 6 years. Maybe you can enlighten me.
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crzymdups
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6/15/2006  4:59 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

When Marbs was traded here. That line-up with Marbs, KT, Van Horn, Doleac and the crew was playing near .600 ball. It was more inspired play then the Sprewell lead playoff teams which I pointed out in 2000 was leading us downward. Unfortunately those players did not get to play together long enough for us to get a real sample. Outside of 2000 can't really think of anotehr time period where we played good basketball in the last 5 or 6 years. Maybe you can enlighten me.

we won 48 games the year after we traded Patrick in 2000-1, so I would say that was our best ball since Pat left. we had a brief solid stretch with KVH. But people love to forget that we got HOUSED in our last two games before the all-star break after that fabled five game win streak and Dikembe was out with a stomach surgery for the rest of the year and that is what led to the trade. also, KVH got injured towards the end of the 2004 season right after we traded him and he's never been the same since. Look at how Tim Thomas did in the playoffs this season. Look at how important Nazr was in San Antonio last season. Talent-wise it was the right move. The personalities just didn't mesh. Also, Houston was still kicking around for some of that stretch and he went down for good in March 2004.
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rvhoss
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6/15/2006  5:02 PM
the fact that marbs got hurt and the team went to hell is a major blow to those that believe marbury is the cancer...i think one of the main reasons we say the "until marbs went down" is to placate those ignorant masses that to this day say it's marbury's fault, all marbury.

The trades were kneejerk reactions to the crappy season, however, Jalen Rose is an expiring contract that came with a Pick and Franchise is a tradeable asset that gives us flexibility in case we want to trade marbury down the road.

i don't see how those two trades were the worst in the world.

MoT, that's another story, but he's expiring this year, so ASSET.

Curry and Crawford, the book is still out on them.

Doleac/KVH brought us Nazr/TinyTim which brought us Curry/JRose/2 picks (one was david lee or nate)

Each trade has made us younger and more athletic (pics or talentwise).

Fish did make an interesting post:
Lets review (for the last time)
GM - makes trades and personel moves. Decides whats best for team at all times in this regard.
Coach - make line ups, sub players, manage actual games. Is only in change of the roster as it pertains to the actual game.

Looking at last year, who did a better job at their assigned tasks?

I think that's all we are saying.

Thanks fishy. you cleared it all up.
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Bippity10
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6/15/2006  5:06 PM
Of course for a full season we had a better season in 00/01. Of course, but that also marked the beginning of the end for us. I'm talking stretches of season where we are showing true promise. Where you can honestly look at a team and say they have some upside. I didn't mind the TT and Nazr trade but where are they now? Gone. Again demonstrating no plan. The coach was let go for their poor play and then they were traded because they still did not mesh even after the coach was let go. See the pattern. Instead of building a team we find someone to blame. When we fire that guy and it isn't fixed we find a new guy to blame. It's a constant tear down, never a build up. Never a plan. It's not how can we make our team better. It's whose fault is it. Lenny Wilkens would never lead us to a championship. But he should still be here. He was brought in to teach a PG and young guys how to win. Then we undermined him and canned him in the interest of some plan which we scraped a year later. IT AIN'T THE COACH.
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Bippity10
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6/15/2006  5:09 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

the fact that marbs got hurt and the team went to hell is a major blow to those that believe marbury is the cancer...i think one of the main reasons we say the "until marbs went down" is to placate those ignorant masses that to this day say it's marbury's fault, all marbury.

The trades were kneejerk reactions to the crappy season, however, Jalen Rose is an expiring contract that came with a Pick and Franchise is a tradeable asset that gives us flexibility in case we want to trade marbury down the road.

i don't see how those two trades were the worst in the world.

MoT, that's another story, but he's expiring this year, so ASSET.

Curry and Crawford, the book is still out on them.

Doleac/KVH brought us Nazr/TinyTim which brought us Curry/JRose/2 picks (one was david lee or nate)

Each trade has made us younger and more athletic (pics or talentwise).

Fish did make an interesting post:
Lets review (for the last time)
GM - makes trades and personel moves. Decides whats best for team at all times in this regard.
Coach - make line ups, sub players, manage actual games. Is only in change of the roster as it pertains to the actual game.

Looking at last year, who did a better job at their assigned tasks?

I think that's all we are saying.

Thanks fishy. you cleared it all up.

RVHOSS: how many years of knee jerk reactions do we have to endure before we demand that the team stop firing coach's, trading to "win now" and start building around a plan, and hard nosed mentally tough players.


We won 23 games and people still think we can get better simply by getting rid of LB. We never build here, we always tear down. And we constantly think we are going to get better after we tear it down. What other team operates this way?
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Rich
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6/15/2006  5:13 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bonn1997:
The fact that Larry Brown has never liked coaching players like this
If you watched Larry's rotations this year, you'd have to conclude that he likes overpaid, lazy veterans a lot more than hardworking young players.


These were his top 5 minute getters, with frye missing the end of the season to injury.

CRAWFORD
MARBURY
CURRY
FRYE
NATE

Glad to see you finally call Steph the lazy overpaid guy that he is, but who else fits?

I would like to see the "top 5 minute getters" for the first 41 games.

Sure, I'd love to see someone else do some homework.

But what difference does it make? Do you really think Dolan was willing to amass a 125M roster and trade so many first round picks in order to watch late round draft picks lead our club? Why is it that Larry played frye more than Sweets in spite of injury and nate more than ariza even though he had marbury, JC, QR and francis in front to him and Ariza only had TT who was having his worst pro season ever. And this was in a year when we had no draft pick vs a year where tanking for lottery position made sense?

If isiah and Dolan are so into throwing kids out there to bear the brunt of all this NY glare and pressure why didn't it happen before Brown, when they played dominatrix with lenny and herb?

If the aforementioned "overpaid lazy veterans" got the bulk of the minutes when the season was still viable, it would tend to indicate that Larry did foresake the kids when the goal of the season from the outset should have been to develop them.

You dodged all my questions and the homework you offered.

And not throwing rookies out under the cruel NYC spotlight to carry the burden of this franchise is not 'forsaking' them, it's developing them on a far more natural schedule.

Now please answer these questions:

Do you really think Dolan/Isiah was willing to amass a 125M roster and trade so many first round picks in order to watch late round draft picks lead our club?

Why is it that Larry played frye more than Sweets in spite of injury and nate more than ariza even though he had marbury, JC, QR and francis in front to him and Ariza only had TT who was having his worst pro season ever. And this was in a year when we had no draft pick vs a year where tanking for lottery position made sense!


If isiah and Dolan are so into throwing kids out there to bear the brunt of all this NY glare and pressure why didn't it happen before Brown, when they played dominatrix with lenny and herb?

How can I do "homework" when I'm working?

1) I think that given the talent deficit that the veterans possessed, the best course was to play the rookies early on so that the could develop their talent to the point that a playoff run (and subsequent playoff runs in ensuing seasons) was possible with them making major contributions. That was the course taht I think should have been followed.

2) More than Sweets? He had already been traded. I don't understand the point.

3) How many quality kids were there before the Frye, Robinson, Lee draft, as well as adding a 22 year old Curry, and Woods later on? Sweetney and Ariza? Neither have the upside.
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