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detroit looks lost...
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Bonn1997
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5/30/2006  9:02 AM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

detroit's shot selection is VERY questionable. i'll take ben's word on the matter.
I don't think Saunders is telling Wallace to allow to back him down and score on him. I think Wallace is "making" those decisions on his own, well atleast it looks like it.

this is dangerously close to putting on the player and not the coach...



My my how the tables have turned...Holding the coach responsible..I always agree with that...


Bro this is the EXACT same team that LB had and took to the finals twice playing a certain way. The only thing that changed was the coach and the philosophy. There is no was you can compare this to the Knicks situation.



Yeah true only difference is that Detroit is the team that's hurt and Miami is healthy...
Exactly. Can't imagine Detroit last year beating this Miami team with Shaq and Wade both healthy instead of BOTH hurt. People are making too much of this anyway. Whether you wanted Larry to get as many wins as possible in NY, whether you wanted him to play the guys who play hard to establish an identity based on toughness and hard work, or whether you wanted sane decisions, Larry's job for the orange and blue was awful as was all other executives' performances.

AUTOADVERT
Killa4luv
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5/30/2006  10:25 AM
OK, so some want to find some indirect praise for Larry in Detroits failings. Whether I think LB would be doing a better job with Detroit or not, is irrelevant. I'm a Knick fan. Even assuming he would have done a better job than Flip this year, that in no way absolves him of responsibility for what he did with us.
BasketballJones
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5/30/2006  3:51 PM
I think Larry Brown was a good coach for the Detroit Pistons, but he was not a good coach for the Knicks team we had this past season. If he stays around I hope there will be some changes so that he can be a good coach for the Knicks too. I want to see the Knicks succeed whoever the owner is, whoever the GM is, whoever the coach is, whoever the players are, etc.

It doesn't look like Flip Saunders is as good a coach for the Pistons as Larry was, although I'm not ready to count them out yet.
Fire Flip for Detroit flop
By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
May 30, 2006

Dan Wetzel
Yahoo! Sports Exclusive
AUBURN HILLS, Mich. – Flip? He's flopped.

And unless Flip Saunders immediately regains control of the spiraling Detroit Pistons, he should be fired just one season into taking over what seemed to be the ultimate coaching job – in charge of the most selfless, self-motivated team in basketball.

The failures of Detroit, which trails the Miami Heat in the Eastern Conference finals 3-1 heading into Wednesday's Game 5, aren't all Saunders' fault, but he will be the fall guy. He has to be.

The most coachable team in the league doesn't turn into the Portland Trail Blazers for no reason.

The Pistons aren't as good as they were the last two years, when they twice reached the Finals and won the title once. They aren't as tenacious defensively. They aren't as strong-willed. They aren't as cohesive, consistent or coordinated. They are barely improved offensively from the Larry Brown days, and that was the one thing Saunders was supposed to change.

During the regular season, he did. Detroit was an up-tempo team that maintained most of its defensive stinginess, streaking to the best record in the NBA.

But Saunders appears to have lost his team during the playoffs as times invariably got tough.

Because of the Pistons' history of playing their best when they're down and almost out – their own motto is "if it ain't rough, it ain't right" – there is still a belief that things can be turned around.

But this isn't the old Detroit team. And Miami – with a healthy Dwyane Wade, Shaquille O'Neal and a strong supporting cast – is not Cleveland or Orlando or New Jersey. The Heat look like a championship club.

The Pistons, meanwhile, have lost of six of their last nine games and look like a fractured team that has given up on its coach.

Rasheed Wallace, who was the definition of a team guy under Brown, has been pouting, even refusing to slap Saunders' hand coming out of games and even steering clear of a timeout huddle in Game 3. Players, including usually soft-spoken Tayshaun Prince, have publicly questioned substitution patterns.

Earlier this year, Ben Wallace, the heart and soul of the team, refused to enter a game when Saunders called on him, and lately he has been critical of practice emphasis (too much offense). Bench rotations, other than Antonio McDyess, have fluctuated wildly, confusing the reserves.

Privately, throughout the locker room, the players will tell you they dislike Saunders' emphasis of zone defense, which goes against their preferred manly version of man-to-man. There is a distinct lack of respect.

"As a coach I make decisions," Saunders said Monday. "I have to live by the decisions. As players, they play, and they have to implement as far as what we do. I don't agree with what Ben says on practice from a defensive standpoint talking to people who have been here and what we've done. We all know how Ben gets at times."

"They can suggest [changes]," Saunders continued. "That doesn't mean I'll do it."

Anytime the talk in the middle of a playoff series is about a possible feud between key players and the coach, said team's goose is all but cooked.

"We can't worry about what's going on in that situation," Prince said Monday. "But people have [seen] the toughness on the defensive end that we bring all the time hasn't been there lately. But I haven't had any problem with Flip, and I don't think any of the other players have had any problems with Flip."

Nice sentiments, but there is no way they are true. Some players certainly have a problem with Flip.

Saunders' greatest failure is losing Ben Wallace's confidence. Wallace's marginalization in Detroit's offense has affected his entire game.

I've written this before, but as strange as it sounds, the secret to getting the Defensive Player of the Year to play his best is to include him, at least a little, offensively. But Saunders has failed to do that, almost embarrassing Wallace on the offensive end by ignoring him.

During the 2004 NBA championship run, Wallace averaged 8.9 shots a game, at least four or five of which came out of Brown's set plays. Big Ben averaged 10.3 points, 14.3 rebounds, 2.4 blocks and 1.9 steals while putting out a hellacious, and contagious, effort.

This postseason, Wallace is averaging a meager 3.9 shots a game and his numbers have dropped across the board – just 4.3 points, 10.9 rebounds, 1.2 blocks and 1.4 steals.

He isn't playing the way he did a year ago as the motor of the team, and his decreased performance has had a compounded impact. In their three victories, the Heat are shooting a blistering 56.6 percent from the floor. That used to be impossible against the Pistons.

While it is Wallace's job to go all out all the time, it is also a coach's job to foster an environment that makes it happen.

Larry Brown knew it, and that is why – despite his constant sideshow of drama – he never lost his locker room.
https:// It's not so hard.
Pharzeone
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5/30/2006  4:10 PM
LOL, wasn't it Ben Wallace who said he stop listening to coach last year in the finals based on those rumors that Joe Glass was trying to shake down the Cavs for some cash for Brown.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
simrud
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5/30/2006  6:36 PM
The Heat are arguably a worse team this year. Walker is a horrible, and Williams is another questionable player. Posey is really helping them, but he was hurt a lot this year if I'm not mistaken. They lack the outside defense of Jones and the outside shooting of Damon Jones. They are going to get destroyed in the finals by Dallas.

Detroit on the other hand is the same team minus some bench players that never played much for them anyways and the coach. Whether you like to admit it or not, they were a better team with Brown as far as playoffs are concerned. Brown gave them an edge. Now you can blindly hate Brown and keep your head up IT behind, as many of you do on regular basis anyways, but the truth is rather obvious to anybody.

But hey, let’s fire Brown, maybe win 30+ games next year, and call it an improvement. Then trade for some mover overpaid losers, tank another season, come up with yet another excuse, and do it all over again. The sad part, the garden will still sell out because of morons who just don't get it.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
oohah
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5/30/2006  6:52 PM
The Heat are arguably a worse team this year. Walker is a horrible, and Williams is another questionable player. Posey is really helping them, but he was hurt a lot this year if I'm not mistaken. They lack the outside defense of Jones and the outside shooting of Damon Jones. They are going to get destroyed in the finals by Dallas.

Walker is terrible? I don't know why he has such a bad rap... Walker has never been a terrible player. In fact he is a "Proven Winner" just like we talk about wanting on this team. He was THE KEY ADDITION to the heat this year. He also does what his coach asks of him even if he has to sacrifice his numbers and comfort zone of his game, see his time in Dallas and now in Miami.

Walker has taken over a few games in these playoffs against the Nets and the Pistons. He has been clutch and performed admirably. Miami would not have run over the Nets without him, and they would probably be tied with the Pistons without his taking over during quiet stretches for Wade and Shaq.

I don't think you are considering that D Jones has been more than replaced by Payton/Williams. After shooting D. Jones has no game. And Posey has a better percentage than E. Jones from the 3 point line this year. Haslem has improved.

Add to that Shaq being healthy, Wade being healthy and a much improved player.

I really don't see how this team is not better than last year's.

ANd by the way, I hope they do get destroyed in the finals because I don't want Riley or Shaq winning another title.

Detroit on the other hand is the same team minus some bench players that never played much for them anyways and the coach. Whether you like to admit it or not, they were a better team with Brown as far as playoffs are concerned. Brown gave them an edge. Now you can blindly hate Brown and keep your head up IT behind, as many of you do on regular basis anyways, but the truth is rather obvious to anybody.



But hey, let’s fire Brown, maybe win 30+ games next year, and call it an improvement. Then trade for some mover overpaid losers, tank another season, come up with yet another excuse, and do it all over again. The sad part, the garden will still sell out because of morons who just don't get it.

Do you mean that if Brown comes back next year the team won't even win 30+ games?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
simrud
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5/30/2006  7:30 PM
I have no idea how many games we will win with Brown. Depends on who is on the team. However if the team is keapt intact and Brown is replaced, I don't see us winning more then like 33 games.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
joec32033
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5/31/2006  12:21 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

detroit's shot selection is VERY questionable. i'll take ben's word on the matter.
I don't think Saunders is telling Wallace to allow to back him down and score on him. I think Wallace is "making" those decisions on his own, well atleast it looks like it.

this is dangerously close to putting on the player and not the coach...



My my how the tables have turned...Holding the coach responsible..I always agree with that...


Bro this is the EXACT same team that LB had and took to the finals twice playing a certain way. The only thing that changed was the coach and the philosophy. There is no was you can compare this to the Knicks situation.



Yeah true only difference is that Detroit is the team that's hurt and Miami is healthy...
Exactly. Can't imagine Detroit last year beating this Miami team with Shaq and Wade both healthy instead of BOTH hurt. People are making too much of this anyway. Whether you wanted Larry to get as many wins as possible in NY, whether you wanted him to play the guys who play hard to establish an identity based on toughness and hard work, or whether you wanted sane decisions, Larry's job for the orange and blue was awful as was all other executives' performances.

How about just admitting that Flip is a bad fit to coach a Pistons team that has won with D like LB was a bad choice to coach a team filled with offensive players...but now that we have LB, I'd rather have him than the current Knicks configuration.
~You can't run from who you are.~
detroit looks lost...

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