Posted by BasketballJones:

I have no problem believing that Brown wanted these players. So what? Brown supposedly wanted Qyntel Woods too... Brown didn't seem to like Ariza, so maybe he got him traded. Marbury was injured and maybe he thought Jalen Rose could handle the ball and add some scoring.

But Isiah had to pull the trigger. He is still the GM. Blame Brown? Sure, but I don't see how Isiah gets a pass here.

I don't give Isiah a pass. I don't think the other guys do either though I don't speak for them.

My problem is the catch-22 that makes it all Isiah's fault and absolves LB of responsibility.

It goes like this:

1) If Isiah doesn't get LB the players he requests then Isiah is a jerk for not equipping LB with what he needs.
2) If Isiah gets LB the players he requests and LB doesn't play them or they simply don't perform under LB, then Isiah is a jerk for not taking a stand against a bad request.

Oh, and here is option 3: If Isiah gets a player that LB does or does not request and they play well, Isiah is a jerk and LB is a genius.

***

However, it is correct that the buck stops with Isiah/Dolan. But as so many have posited in this forum, then LB goes to work "exposing" how weak the roster is without the players he requests.

Round and Round we go! Something's gotta give.

oohah





[Edited by - oohah on 05-22-2006 6:43 PM]

Posted by oohah:

Posted by BasketballJones:

I have no problem believing that Brown wanted these players. So what? Brown supposedly wanted Qyntel Woods too... Brown didn't seem to like Ariza, so maybe he got him traded. Marbury was injured and maybe he thought Jalen Rose could handle the ball and add some scoring.

But Isiah had to pull the trigger. He is still the GM. Blame Brown? Sure, but I don't see how Isiah gets a pass here.

I don't give Isiah a pass. I don't think the other guys do either though I don't speak for them.

My problem is the catch-22 that makes it all Isiah's fault and absolves LB of responsibility.

It goes like this:

1) If Isiah doesn't get LB the players he requests then Isiah is a jerk for not equipping LB with what he needs.
2) If Isiah gets LB the players he requests and LB doesn't play them or they simply don't perform under LB, then Isiah is a jerk for not taking a stand against a bad request.

Oh, and here is option 3: If Isiah gets a player that LB does or does not request and they play well, Isiah is a jerk and LB is a genius.

***

However, it is correct that the buck stops with Isiah/Dolan. But as so many have posited in this forum, then LB goes to work "exposing" how weak the roster is without the players he requests.

Round and Round we go! Something's gotta give.

oohah

this roster is 100% Isiah's responsibility, no ifs ands or butts
The horrible play, total lack of any consistant style of play and constant confusion night in and night out is 100% Larry Brown's fault as its his job to define roles and put guys in a position to succeed.
The fact that if they didnt succeed they quit, moped, half assed it or whatever is 100% on the players.

If Isiah dumps some of the malcontents, has a good draft and adds a couple good role players like a Jarred Jeffries and Reggie Evans, and this thing turns around VERY quickly as I feel it can, and IF the players get on Larry's page, buy into the system and start winning games the credit will go the same way
Credit to Isiah for finally building a TEAM, a group of guys that can succeed together
Credit to Larry for doing what he's done at every other stop he's been at and... (what I have been waiting 5 years for)
Credit to the players for being men, and not the spoiled brats they have been

Man.. I want to give credit in the worst way, I really do. I just cant see past another horrible MLE signing, and packaging our picks and expiring deals for some jerk off that needs a "system" and the ball in his hands to be an effective player.

Posted by BasketballJones:

Yes, they were working together. Why is that so hard for some to believe?

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by oohah:

Posted by BasketballJones:

I have no problem believing that Brown wanted these players. So what? Brown supposedly wanted Qyntel Woods too... Brown didn't seem to like Ariza, so maybe he got him traded. Marbury was injured and maybe he thought Jalen Rose could handle the ball and add some scoring.

But Isiah had to pull the trigger. He is still the GM. Blame Brown? Sure, but I don't see how Isiah gets a pass here.

I don't give Isiah a pass. I don't think the other guys do either though I don't speak for them.

My problem is the catch-22 that makes it all Isiah's fault and absolves LB of responsibility.

It goes like this:

1) If Isiah doesn't get LB the players he requests then Isiah is a jerk for not equipping LB with what he needs.
2) If Isiah gets LB the players he requests and LB doesn't play them or they simply don't perform under LB, then Isiah is a jerk for not taking a stand against a bad request.

Oh, and here is option 3: If Isiah gets a player that LB does or does not request and they play well, Isiah is a jerk and LB is a genius.

***

However, it is correct that the buck stops with Isiah/Dolan. But as so many have posited in this forum, then LB goes to work "exposing" how weak the roster is without the players he requests.

Round and Round we go! Something's gotta give.

oohah

this roster is 100% Isiah's responsibility, no ifs ands or butts
The horrible play, total lack of any consistant style of play and constant confusion night in and night out is 100% Larry Brown's fault as its his job to define roles and put guys in a position to succeed.
The fact that if they didnt succeed they quit, moped, half assed it or whatever is 100% on the players.

If Isiah dumps some of the malcontents, has a good draft and adds a couple good role players like a Jarred Jeffries and Reggie Evans, and this thing turns around VERY quickly as I feel it can, and IF the players get on Larry's page, buy into the system and start winning games the credit will go the same way
Credit to Isiah for finally building a TEAM, a group of guys that can succeed together
Credit to Larry for doing what he's done at every other stop he's been at and... (what I have been waiting 5 years for)
Credit to the players for being men, and not the spoiled brats they have been

Man.. I want to give credit in the worst way, I really do. I just cant see past another horrible MLE signing, and packaging our picks and expiring deals for some jerk off that needs a "system" and the ball in his hands to be an effective player.

Good post Fishmike. A lot of people keep trying to find someone to blame the most. But everyone played there part in this waste of a season. Thats why you could find yourself in an arguement so easy if you only choose to stick with ONE side and blame everyone else. And I also agree with your view on how to fix it to. It all can be done. I don't know if it will all be able to be done in one offseason though.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by oohah:

Posted by BasketballJones:

I have no problem believing that Brown wanted these players. So what? Brown supposedly wanted Qyntel Woods too... Brown didn't seem to like Ariza, so maybe he got him traded. Marbury was injured and maybe he thought Jalen Rose could handle the ball and add some scoring.

But Isiah had to pull the trigger. He is still the GM. Blame Brown? Sure, but I don't see how Isiah gets a pass here.

I don't give Isiah a pass. I don't think the other guys do either though I don't speak for them.

My problem is the catch-22 that makes it all Isiah's fault and absolves LB of responsibility.

It goes like this:

1) If Isiah doesn't get LB the players he requests then Isiah is a jerk for not equipping LB with what he needs.
2) If Isiah gets LB the players he requests and LB doesn't play them or they simply don't perform under LB, then Isiah is a jerk for not taking a stand against a bad request.

Oh, and here is option 3: If Isiah gets a player that LB does or does not request and they play well, Isiah is a jerk and LB is a genius.

***

However, it is correct that the buck stops with Isiah/Dolan. But as so many have posited in this forum, then LB goes to work "exposing" how weak the roster is without the players he requests.

Round and Round we go! Something's gotta give.

oohah





[Edited by - oohah on 05-22-2006 6:43 PM]

Oohah: You're 100% right, but certain people here absolve Brown others blame both Brown and Isiah. It won't change no matter how many times each person on each side posts the same thing. I was about to re-state my view again like everyone else's is restating theirs, but then I realized that that's pointless


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 05-22-2006 8:28 PM]

Pointless is correct.

Posted by fishmike:


this roster is 100% Isiah's responsibility, no ifs ands or butts
The horrible play, total lack of any consistant style of play and constant confusion night in and night out is 100% Larry Brown's fault as its his job to define roles and put guys in a position to succeed.
The fact that if they didnt succeed they quit, moped, half assed it or whatever is 100% on the players.

If Isiah dumps some of the malcontents, has a good draft and adds a couple good role players like a Jarred Jeffries and Reggie Evans, and this thing turns around VERY quickly as I feel it can, and IF the players get on Larry's page, buy into the system and start winning games the credit will go the same way
Credit to Isiah for finally building a TEAM, a group of guys that can succeed together
Credit to Larry for doing what he's done at every other stop he's been at and... (what I have been waiting 5 years for)
Credit to the players for being men, and not the spoiled brats they have been

Man.. I want to give credit in the worst way, I really do. I just cant see past another horrible MLE signing, and packaging our picks and expiring deals for some jerk off that needs a "system" and the ball in his hands to be an effective player.

Good post, Fish. I think you and I have been the most outspoken in our wishes for picking up either both Evans and Jeffries or even just one of them, but I think this team would be much more successful if they were to throw 2 hardworking guys out on the floor, I think it'll be contagious to the rest of the team. Listen to EVERYONE who thinks I am just absolving Brown for everything this year. I'm not. It's partly his fault, just like its partly Isiah's fault, same deal with the players, as Fish said. At this point in time, Jim Dolan has pitted the Larry Brown vs. Isiah by the sheer thought of firing Larry. When push comes to shove, I'm going to side with Larry becuase the guy knows how to coach and he has shown that in the past, while Isiah has not shown the ability to be a good executive. We all know that Larry's coaching style is a bit old school and it takes a certain player to play under him but I think if you add these two guys it makes Larry's coaching job much easier because they will be out there every nite giving their all AND producing at the same time. No, this isn't picking up Eric Snow or Theo Ratliff, these guys are both young and will be good players for this team for years to come.

I hope that Isiah and Larry can work together in putting a great team together. I honestly think the Knicks can turn this around if Isiah goes after the right guys, like I said before Reggie Evans would be a huge addition for the Knicks rebounding, yeah the guy doesnt contribute on offense but thats ok, he would make up for it defensively. The same goes for Jeffries, the guy is a excellent one on one defensive player and he is a good weakside shotblocker, combine him and Reggie Evans on the court at the same time along with Eddy Curry and it's going to rub off on Curry becuase both of these guys have high energy levels. I think one of Eddy's problems is that he needs other players to get his motor going and the Knicks need more then just Nate Rob to get him going, add these guys and alot of the Knicks biggest problems are solved. Offensively the Knicks won't have any problems becuase Marbury is still going to be on the team along with Curry and Crawford. If Isiah can find a way to pick up Evans and Jeffries, alot of my worries about this team will be cast aside and the future will look a bit brighter. But the key for me is that him and Larry HAVE to work together, not apart.


[Edited by - nyk4ever on 05-22-2006 11:56 PM]

Posted by BlueSeats:

So again, if those were the trades that went down I'd be more inclined to accept them as Brown driven because they involve the defensive oriented role players we know he appreciates. But the Jalen and Francis trades defy that logic and follow much more closely the flashy attention getting "name brand" collecting of assets approach that has characterized isiah's tenure here.

It's simply a matter of fitting the round peg into the round hole.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by oohah:

Posted by BasketballJones:

I have no problem believing that Brown wanted these players. So what? Brown supposedly wanted Qyntel Woods too... Brown didn't seem to like Ariza, so maybe he got him traded. Marbury was injured and maybe he thought Jalen Rose could handle the ball and add some scoring.

But Isiah had to pull the trigger. He is still the GM. Blame Brown? Sure, but I don't see how Isiah gets a pass here.

I don't give Isiah a pass. I don't think the other guys do either though I don't speak for them.

My problem is the catch-22 that makes it all Isiah's fault and absolves LB of responsibility.

It goes like this:

1) If Isiah doesn't get LB the players he requests then Isiah is a jerk for not equipping LB with what he needs.
2) If Isiah gets LB the players he requests and LB doesn't play them or they simply don't perform under LB, then Isiah is a jerk for not taking a stand against a bad request.

Oh, and here is option 3: If Isiah gets a player that LB does or does not request and they play well, Isiah is a jerk and LB is a genius.

***

However, it is correct that the buck stops with Isiah/Dolan. But as so many have posited in this forum, then LB goes to work "exposing" how weak the roster is without the players he requests.

Round and Round we go! Something's gotta give.

oohah

this roster is 100% Isiah's responsibility, no ifs ands or butts
The horrible play, total lack of any consistant style of play and constant confusion night in and night out is 100% Larry Brown's fault as its his job to define roles and put guys in a position to succeed.
The fact that if they didnt succeed they quit, moped, half assed it or whatever is 100% on the players.

If Isiah dumps some of the malcontents, has a good draft and adds a couple good role players like a Jarred Jeffries and Reggie Evans, and this thing turns around VERY quickly as I feel it can, and IF the players get on Larry's page, buy into the system and start winning games the credit will go the same way
Credit to Isiah for finally building a TEAM, a group of guys that can succeed together
Credit to Larry for doing what he's done at every other stop he's been at and... (what I have been waiting 5 years for)
Credit to the players for being men, and not the spoiled brats they have been

Man.. I want to give credit in the worst way, I really do. I just cant see past another horrible MLE signing, and packaging our picks and expiring deals for some jerk off that needs a "system" and the ball in his hands to be an effective player.

Fish 100% agree with this post. That's exactly my point. It ain't about LB and who is to blame. When you win 23 games how is anyone considered a positive. How do you find ONE GUY to blame for that mess. We have been playing the blame game for 5 years. Coach's have taken the brunt. Stars have taken some shots as well. Fans read the papers and love when someone gets the axe. And yet nothing changes because this situation goes far deeper than one individual. We are an awful organization. Either fire LB and move on, or get behind the guy 100%. But this limbo is killing our team.