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holfresh
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5/20/2006  1:35 AM
Posted by simrud:

Even if you are right, a coup agsint IT is a good thing. Why not make him the GM too. IT has done a terrible job, so why not try something new?



Brown has tried to trade some of the best players in the NBA because he had issues with them...I would not trust that guy making personnel decisions with my high school team...As another poster wrote, I would prefer to see Marbs manning the phones before Larry Brown...
AUTOADVERT
BlueSeats
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5/20/2006  2:30 AM
Posted by holfresh:
Brown has tried to trade some of the best players in the NBA because he had issues with them...I would not trust that guy making personnel decisions with my high school team...As another poster wrote, I would prefer to see Marbs manning the phones before Larry Brown...

That sounds good. We should just keep our current roster. You don't want to trade anyone and the last thing we need are defenders. We're set. All we gotta do is cut Malik to give his 15 mpg to this years draft pick, whoever they are.

Plus we can just go with Steph as player/coach/GM. We don't need no stinkin' trades and we sure don't need no stinkin' plays.
OldFan
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5/20/2006  8:58 AM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by holfresh:


I will preach against Larry forever, if it means we won't build around our young players....It's the only way we can get out of this mess...Dolan's message to Larry was to make Curry into a player...I agree with that...For that matter, make Frye, Lee and Q2 into players are well...i give him credit for Craw's turn around...But please, no KMart, Ratliff and older player that takes time from our kids....When will the madness end???



[Edited by - holfresh on 05-19-2006 5:26 PM]


It's ok to think a coach can improve some of his players. But you just pointed out the main problem with our GM - he gave us a team - where everyone on the team needed to improve a LOT. You need a couple of guys who can play - this team had NO ONE. Not one player who was a quality starter - and did not come with a ton of baggage.



So what is you feeling on the direction that Larry Brown wnat to take the team...Do you think the Knicks should get vets to win now or do you believe that we should focus on the young players...I'm really surprised...I would have thought supporters of Larry Brown would give me their view points on supporting Larry Brown's direction...Instead I'm getting fingers point in other direction which has been the case with this team all year...



Pointing fingers in the other direction? Isiah is the GM the Knicks have not improved since he's been here. In three years he's put together a terrible roster - with little chance for significant improvement in spite of it's youth. Marbury hasn't gotten along with coaches, hasn't gotten along with players - and the Knicks have not improved at all since he's been here. What you seem to forget is the team was terrible before LB so how is it all Larry's fault?
holfresh
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5/20/2006  9:35 AM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by holfresh:


I will preach against Larry forever, if it means we won't build around our young players....It's the only way we can get out of this mess...Dolan's message to Larry was to make Curry into a player...I agree with that...For that matter, make Frye, Lee and Q2 into players are well...i give him credit for Craw's turn around...But please, no KMart, Ratliff and older player that takes time from our kids....When will the madness end???



[Edited by - holfresh on 05-19-2006 5:26 PM]


It's ok to think a coach can improve some of his players. But you just pointed out the main problem with our GM - he gave us a team - where everyone on the team needed to improve a LOT. You need a couple of guys who can play - this team had NO ONE. Not one player who was a quality starter - and did not come with a ton of baggage.



So what is you feeling on the direction that Larry Brown wnat to take the team...Do you think the Knicks should get vets to win now or do you believe that we should focus on the young players...I'm really surprised...I would have thought supporters of Larry Brown would give me their view points on supporting Larry Brown's direction...Instead I'm getting fingers point in other direction which has been the case with this team all year...



Pointing fingers in the other direction? Isiah is the GM the Knicks have not improved since he's been here. In three years he's put together a terrible roster - with little chance for significant improvement in spite of it's youth. Marbury hasn't gotten along with coaches, hasn't gotten along with players - and the Knicks have not improved at all since he's been here. What you seem to forget is the team was terrible before LB so how is it all Larry's fault?



Everyone agreed the talent level of the team had improved from the previous year...The Knicks got younger, more athletic, and more talent...Now it was up to Brown to bring this out on the floor..He failed miserable...Later, it came out that our diva coach might have been tanking the season in a coup attempt...So you are saying I should hold Isiah accountable...At what point does Brown figure into accountability?..Does it only happen if they are victorious...Don't forget experts thought the Knicks would make the playoff...They showed up with 23 wins and the coach is not accountable? Amazing....
McK1
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5/20/2006  10:08 AM
who is everyone and what do your consider talent upgrade?

no rebounders no passers no shooters no leadership on the roster doesn't equal upgrade by most standards
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
holfresh
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5/20/2006  10:34 AM
Posted by McK1:

who is everyone and what do your consider talent upgrade?

no rebounders no passers no shooters no leadership on the roster doesn't equal upgrade by most standards


New York Knicks
2004 Record: 33-49 (4th)
2005 Title odds: 70/1
2005 Wins O/U: 41.5
2005 Wins Projection: Over
Key Additions: Quentin Richardson, SF; Jerome James, C; Channing Frye, PF
Key Losses: Kurt Thomas, PF; Jerome Williams, PF Outlook: The talk of The Town this summer was obviously the acquisition of Larry Brown to coach the woebegone Knicks. Brown, who guided Detroit to the world championship in 2003-04, will be dealing with the antithesis of what he had in the Motor City. The Knicks are still cap-strapped, and have a roster littered with egos. New York boasts an athletic and skilled backcourt - Stephon Marbury (21.7 ppg, 8.1 apg), Jamal Crawford (17.7 ppg), and Quentin Richardson (14.9 ppg, 6.1 rpg) - but it will be interesting to see if Brown can get them to gel, share the ball, take good shots, and play defense. Also, they gambled on Eddy Curry and his irregular heartbeat and the inconsistent, but potential-laden, Jerome James.
Final verdict: Last season the Knicks were 28th in defense and 22nd in rebounding. Both of those facets require heart and hustle. I don't see that coming from these prima donnas, but Brown alone should be good for five or six wins.
McK1
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5/20/2006  10:48 AM
good find holfresh

"I don't see that coming from these prima donnas, but Brown alone should be good for five or six wins"

NO faith in the "talent" in Vegas.

alot was placed in the mere presence of Brown - guys didn't respond to him. he will go down on the long list of coaches who couldn't turn chicken **** into chicken salad.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
nyk4ever
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5/20/2006  10:50 AM
Posted by holfresh:





Everyone agreed the talent level of the team had improved from the previous year...The Knicks got younger, more athletic, and more talent...Now it was up to Brown to bring this out on the floor..He failed miserable...Later, it came out that our diva coach might have been tanking the season in a coup attempt...So you are saying I should hold Isiah accountable...At what point does Brown figure into accountability?..Does it only happen if they are victorious...Don't forget experts thought the Knicks would make the playoff...They showed up with 23 wins and the coach is not accountable? Amazing....




Wow the Knicks talentlevle was upgraded! It's not hard to upgrade your talentlevel when it the talentlevel was **** the year before.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
BlueSeats
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5/20/2006  11:33 AM
What I think we're learning is talent only goes so far, especially at the expense of fundamentals, experience, defense, hustle, commitment, compatibility, coachability, fit, chemistry, etc.

I personally think the loss of Kurt, JYD, TT, Nazr, Houston and Sweets was a step backwards in several of those regards. The equation may shift again as Curry and the kids develop, but for last year it was a step backwards.
holfresh
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5/20/2006  11:57 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

What I think we're learning is talent only goes so far, especially at the expense of fundamentals, experience, defense, hustle, commitment, compatibility, coachability, fit, chemistry, etc.

I personally think the loss of Kurt, JYD, TT, Nazr, Houston and Sweets was a step backwards in several of those regards. The equation may shift again as Curry and the kids develop, but for last year it was a step backwards.



No what we learned is that the coach wasn't playing to win....
BlueSeats
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5/20/2006  12:06 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

What I think we're learning is talent only goes so far, especially at the expense of fundamentals, experience, defense, hustle, commitment, compatibility, coachability, fit, chemistry, etc.

I personally think the loss of Kurt, JYD, TT, Nazr, Houston and Sweets was a step backwards in several of those regards. The equation may shift again as Curry and the kids develop, but for last year it was a step backwards.



No what we learned is that the coach wasn't playing to win....

You have the coach confused with the point guard.
OldFan
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5/20/2006  3:54 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

What I think we're learning is talent only goes so far, especially at the expense of fundamentals, experience, defense, hustle, commitment, compatibility, coachability, fit, chemistry, etc.

I personally think the loss of Kurt, JYD, TT, Nazr, Houston and Sweets was a step backwards in several of those regards. The equation may shift again as Curry and the kids develop, but for last year it was a step backwards.



No what we learned is that the coach wasn't playing to win....



Brown aside. What it comes down to is that Isiah has no idea how to put a team together and outside of yourself everyone else realizes that. Even the quotes you use to support your contentions support the opposite. The only reason anyone had anything good to say about the Knicks was that their faith in Brown.

Isiah was unsuccessful in Toronto and terrible in NY. He has no idea how to put together complimentary talents, does not seem to take personalities and off court issues into consideration at all and his money management is terrible.
nyk4ever
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5/20/2006  4:03 PM
Posted by OldFan:


Brown aside. What it comes down to is that Isiah has no idea how to put a team together and outside of yourself everyone else realizes that. Even the quotes you use to support your contentions support the opposite. The only reason anyone had anything good to say about the Knicks was that their faith in Brown.

Isiah was unsuccessful in Toronto and terrible in NY. He has no idea how to put together complimentary talents, does not seem to take personalities and off court issues into consideration at all and his money management is terrible.



Yeah that about sums up Isiah. Sadly enough, he's our GM
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
holfresh
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5/20/2006  7:58 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

What I think we're learning is talent only goes so far, especially at the expense of fundamentals, experience, defense, hustle, commitment, compatibility, coachability, fit, chemistry, etc.

I personally think the loss of Kurt, JYD, TT, Nazr, Houston and Sweets was a step backwards in several of those regards. The equation may shift again as Curry and the kids develop, but for last year it was a step backwards.



No what we learned is that the coach wasn't playing to win....



Brown aside. What it comes down to is that Isiah has no idea how to put a team together and outside of yourself everyone else realizes that. Even the quotes you use to support your contentions support the opposite. The only reason anyone had anything good to say about the Knicks was that their faith in Brown.

Isiah was unsuccessful in Toronto and terrible in NY. He has no idea how to put together complimentary talents, does not seem to take personalities and off court issues into consideration at all and his money management is terrible.





What you guys are good at doing is trying to pin the blame of Larry Brown's lousy season on others..That fact is that this is a far from acomplete roster...Yeah you can blame Isiah, but the situation he walked into, it was impossible to make a winner out of that roster in such a short period of time...We needed a center, a small forward, a point guard and a shooting guard...Now how on earth do you put that together when you are over the cap and Kurt Thomas is your only piece of value...If you think any GM can build a winner in 2 years under those circumstances, you are not really being fair, or you are not realistic, or you really don't understand what it takes to put a winning situation together...Now I'm not here trying to say Isiah has doen a great job, but if you think winning results would have followed him after the hire in two short years, well you are not are smart you may think you are....



[Edited by - holfresh on 05-20-2006 8:00 PM]
McK1
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5/20/2006  8:51 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:

What I think we're learning is talent only goes so far, especially at the expense of fundamentals, experience, defense, hustle, commitment, compatibility, coachability, fit, chemistry, etc.

I personally think the loss of Kurt, JYD, TT, Nazr, Houston and Sweets was a step backwards in several of those regards. The equation may shift again as Curry and the kids develop, but for last year it was a step backwards.



No what we learned is that the coach wasn't playing to win....



Brown aside. What it comes down to is that Isiah has no idea how to put a team together and outside of yourself everyone else realizes that. Even the quotes you use to support your contentions support the opposite. The only reason anyone had anything good to say about the Knicks was that their faith in Brown.

Isiah was unsuccessful in Toronto and terrible in NY. He has no idea how to put together complimentary talents, does not seem to take personalities and off court issues into consideration at all and his money management is terrible.





What you guys are good at doing is trying to pin the blame of Larry Brown's lousy season on others..That fact is that this is a far from acomplete roster...Yeah you can blame Isiah, but the situation he walked into, it was impossible to make a winner out of that roster in such a short period of time...We needed a center, a small forward, a point guard and a shooting guard...Now how on earth do you put that together when you are over the cap and Kurt Thomas is your only piece of value...If you think any GM can build a winner in 2 years under those circumstances



[Edited by - holfresh on 05-20-2006 8:00 PM]

there is this process called the nba draft which is the only thing Isiah has any merit at. Trading away 2 first round picks 2 weeks on the job killed Isiah's chance to fill needs quicker.

Kurt could play, Van Horn can play, Doleac can play, Dyess was returning. It wasn't an impossible situation

Thomas had all his picks to start his tenure and 2 extra 2nd rounders.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
holfresh
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5/20/2006  9:00 PM
So if those players could play...why were the Knicks not able to get to the playoffs???

Please, I have done this before..Do you really need me to post our roster pre Isiah?

I think you remember who the villians were...

None of whom starts for another NBA team when players are not injured...

Kurt Thomas won't start when Amare gets back..




[Edited by - holfresh on 05-20-2006 9:02 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 05-20-2006 9:03 PM]
McK1
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5/20/2006  9:18 PM
Posted by holfresh:

So if those players could play...why were the Knicks not able to get to the playoffs???

Please, I have done this before..Do you really need me to post our roster pre Isiah?

I think you remember who the villians were...

None of whom starts for another NBA team when players are not injured...

Kurt Thomas won't start when Amare gets back..




[Edited by - holfresh on 05-20-2006 9:02 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 05-20-2006 9:03 PM]

does MIB know you are on this rock?

how come the more Isiah puts his stamp on the team, the worse they perform?





[Edited by - McK1 on 05-20-2006 9:20 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Swishfm3
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5/21/2006  12:45 AM
Two years ago nobody on this site wanted KVH....Now everyone wants him back

Two years ago everyone on this site was screaming for Cheany heads for playing McDyess so many minutes in a pre-season game and calling McDyess "done" now everyone wants them back.


Two years ago...like Holfresh stated...we needed a Center, a PG and SF BADLY. I.Thomas went off and aquired a TOP PG and NY native (Marbury) and a Center (James) who had an OUTSTANDING series against one of the top, if not the top, big man in the game....later he found out he had an opportunity to aquire a very talented, young center (Curry) who has been compared to Shaq.

now...two years ago, if someone would have told you that the Knicks would have a roster of Marbury, Francis, Curry, J.Rose, some promising rookies AND LARRY BROWN coaching...what would you think? Would you honestly think I.Thomas to be a fool? Would you honestly think this team, under Brown, would only win 23 games?
nyk4ever
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5/21/2006  2:18 AM
Posted by Swishfm3:

Two years ago nobody on this site wanted KVH....Now everyone wants him back

Two years ago everyone on this site was screaming for Cheany heads for playing McDyess so many minutes in a pre-season game and calling McDyess "done" now everyone wants them back.


Two years ago...like Holfresh stated...we needed a Center, a PG and SF BADLY. I.Thomas went off and aquired a TOP PG and NY native (Marbury) and a Center (James) who had an OUTSTANDING series against one of the top, if not the top, big man in the game....later he found out he had an opportunity to aquire a very talented, young center (Curry) who has been compared to Shaq.

now...two years ago, if someone would have told you that the Knicks would have a roster of Marbury, Francis, Curry, J.Rose, some promising rookies AND LARRY BROWN coaching...what would you think? Would you honestly think I.Thomas to be a fool? Would you honestly think this team, under Brown, would only win 23 games?

First off, don't say no one wanted KVH. I was against that trade from the beginning because unlike the GM, I've seen Tim Thomas track record and its not good. Same goes for Jerome James who pulled this same stunt in the playoffs with Sonics 5 years ago and then didn't show up the following season after getting paid. Isiah was a terrible executive before he goto New York and now that he's here he's on the list of worst executives ever. Isiah is worthless, his trades and signings have set this franchise even further back and the mountain of **** that is in the Garden is piled so high that its almost impossible to scale. Thanks Isiah.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 05-21-2006 02:20 AM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
holfresh
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5/21/2006  11:14 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by holfresh:

So if those players could play...why were the Knicks not able to get to the playoffs???

Please, I have done this before..Do you really need me to post our roster pre Isiah?

I think you remember who the villians were...

None of whom starts for another NBA team when players are not injured...

Kurt Thomas won't start when Amare gets back..




[Edited by - holfresh on 05-20-2006 9:02 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 05-20-2006 9:03 PM]

does MIB know you are on this rock?

how come the more Isiah puts his stamp on the team, the worse they perform?





[Edited by - McK1 on 05-20-2006 9:20 PM]


Because he hired a coach who decided to tank the season in a bid for a coup...
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