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lenny wilkens on the knicks
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newyorknewyork
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5/18/2006  6:07 PM
Yo, all this stuff that this article has presented is the same exact stuff I have been rambling about for the last few days. And all I did was think of different possibilities. I guess thats what happends when you don't just assume one thing, and block out everything else.

Was Marbury put in a position to succeed here?? After Houston went down I think not. You can't in one breath say that Isiah Thomas as thrown together a mismatched roster, of underachivers and cast offs, made one millions moves moving players left and right, and then fired any coach that didn't agree with his plan. But then in another breath blame Marbury for not having great chemistry, putting this team on his back and getting to the playoffs and beyond. And getting coaches fired.

This season, instead of coaching up his team, he talked down to them. Instead of communicating face-to-face with his players, Brown criticized them behind their backs. He feuded with point guard Stephon Marbury, but rarely talked to him.

So the possibility of that maybe Marbury didn't understand how to execute Larry Browns plan to perfection. Which is why he was so heisitant, and he did look heisitant. Rather than Marbury just not buying in saying to hell with it looks a lot clearer. Larry Brown did a poor job of communicating with him. The last comment Marbury made about the season when he and Brown finally had a long sit down and said if we had communicated with me like this earlier then there wouldn't have been any problems. Though Marbury got to get his share of blame as well. As I don't know if he seeked the coach for him to communicate with him. But I do know that Marbury called Billups to ask for help in Browns system. Thats showing the effort to learn it. So the specualation of Marbury not buying into Browns system is becoming less and less. While the notion that Marbury tried and didn't understand how to execute is becoming more beleiveable.
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newyorknewyork
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5/18/2006  6:08 PM
I agreed with some of Isiahs moves. With the Marbury trade I was just ready for a plan. Putting Marbury & Houston together was the plan so I rooted for it. If they would have went in full rebuild mode I would have been cool with that to. I did feel we gave up a lot for Marbury. But I thought if Sweetney was the real deal in the frontcourt with Marbury-Houston in the backcourt & KVH on the periemeter & Mutombo patroling the paint. Not to forget KT. We would be good now and be able to build what we lost back up in the future. I thought the Spoon trade was good since it free'd up Sweetney. I thought TT/Nazr brought value for future trades to bring in a stud frontcourt player next to Marbury & Houston. I didn't really have an opinion on the Crawford trade but hoped for the best. It seemed like a good move for insurance on Houston. The M.Rose trade showed we changed plans to add picks. So I was willing to give it a shot. The Taylor trade was BAD. The KT trade I was okay with because it brought in Nate who I was high on at the draft and Richardson I thought would bring the outside shooting to open up Marbury & Crawford. The Jerome James signing was HORRIBLE. Eddie Curry trade I also didn't have an opinion on. But I was excited to have a skilled center to give to Larry Brown. So far Isiah has either made bad moves. Or moves that didn't work out. And im tired of waiting for the moves to finally pay off. So its defeinatly time for Isiah to move on and bring someone else in here.
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tkf
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5/18/2006  7:11 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by misterearl:

Andrew - Lenny was cool with me. I had the opportunity to even meet and work with him, but...

how many people are still Steinbrenner fans despite all the Managers he's fired?

Can you rememeber the Yankees of the seventies and the work it took to fix the franchise?

And that's WITHOUT a salary cap

i'm too young to remember the 70's yankees but i do remember the 80's and 90's yankees.

george was forever trading youth for over the hill guys in the 80's like layden. he was hiring and firing managers left and right. he traded away jay buhner for ken phelps. and the team was a mess.

then, he actually took a step back and gave the reigns to buck and stick micheal. stick then rebuilt the farm system and cultivated from within. then he got rid of buck and watson and torre came here and surrounded the young guys with some solid veterans. no splashes, just solid players like tino, brosius, and o'neill. team won.

now he's doing the isiah and just going all out and getting the biggest $$$ players that teams are looking to dump or not looking to re-sign. and now the yankees, although comepetative b/c you're able to get better talent w/o the cap, have yet to win it since the first splash of giambi.[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-18-2006 3:34 PM]

yea, but the yanks had their chances, went to the WS, playoffs, they had their chances, it is not like the team took a nosedive, they haven't lost the division since getting Giambi either, winning 4 WS in such a short span spoiled us yankees fans, but lets be real, winning a WS takes a lot of talent and sometimes luck, us not winning a WS had more to do with untimely injuries, wildcard teams getting hot, and some unlucky plays...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
misterearl
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5/19/2006  8:32 AM
>>>Wilkens also took a poke at the latest lame-duck Knicks coach, Larry Brown. Wilkens said Brown had a more talented roster than he did. "I don't know from any perspective if you can constantly criticize your players," Wilkens said.

- NYPost

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bigbeast
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5/19/2006  8:45 AM
Posted by fishmike:

please please please stop. Larry Brown is NOT the GM. Those trades were Isiah's and nobody elses. We have been over this 1000 times. Please stop insulting us by saying Isiah is somehow not responsible for Rose/Francis because Larry Brown asked for them. When Isiah gets fired and Larry is in charge of personel then this discussion will change.


You guys slay me.....LB practically said at Francis' press conference that he PUSHED for francis when he saw that he was available. Yes Isiah is the GM and has to pull the trigger, but LB gave him the Gun the Bullets and the Target.

Isiah also said that he'll try to get LB the players that he wanted. Isiah clearly didn't want QWoods, but he signed him because Brown requested him......

You guys are super creative in defending Brown. Even when Brown is quoted in the paper, you guys figure a way to twist them to fit your warped-beliefs of that he shold not be held accountable of this mess.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
fishmike
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5/19/2006  9:02 AM
get over it. I'm not defending Brown. Its the GM's job to make trades and determine whats best for the team. What was LB supposed to say? "I dont really like Francis but Isiah cant say no?" Please tell me in the history of the NBA where a coach said he wasnt excited or happy or wanted a certain player that just got traded to them. Please... use some common sense.

Larry Brown isnt the GM. I dont care if he stays or goes, because so long as we have THIS GM our team will be f@cked up, you can be sure of that.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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5/19/2006  9:08 AM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by fishmike:

please please please stop. Larry Brown is NOT the GM. Those trades were Isiah's and nobody elses. We have been over this 1000 times. Please stop insulting us by saying Isiah is somehow not responsible for Rose/Francis because Larry Brown asked for them. When Isiah gets fired and Larry is in charge of personel then this discussion will change.


You guys slay me.....LB practically said at Francis' press conference that he PUSHED for francis when he saw that he was available. Yes Isiah is the GM and has to pull the trigger, but LB gave him the Gun the Bullets and the Target.

Isiah also said that he'll try to get LB the players that he wanted. Isiah clearly didn't want QWoods, but he signed him because Brown requested him......

You guys are super creative in defending Brown. Even when Brown is quoted in the paper, you guys figure a way to twist them to fit your warped-beliefs of that he shold not be held accountable of this mess.

How about this: Brown and Isiah will look at you with a straight face and lie to you. Both have done it before and admitted it.

From Newsday:
Although Brown publicly backed Thomas' decisions to trade for Eddy Curry, Jalen Rose and Steve Francis this past season, those who know him around the NBA seriously doubt he wanted Francis, who languished on the bench after Brown quickly determined he couldn't run the offense.

One top high-ranking NBA executive said Brown might have agreed to the deal if he thought point guard Stephon Marbury was going to be traded, but he added, "I can't imagine he said, 'I'd like them both here.'"
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misterearl
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5/19/2006  9:22 AM
>>"I can't imagine he said, 'I'd like them both here.'"

The operative word is "imagine"

Just one cats opinion. Next.
once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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5/19/2006  9:51 AM
fact: Isiah makes trades regardless of what his coach says
fact: Isiah has traded players his coach didnt want traded
fact: Isiah is responsible and has final say (aside from Dolan) on who is or isnt added to the roster via trade or FA

your right... why deal in opinion when there is plenty of fact?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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5/19/2006  9:53 AM
Posted by fishmike:

get over it. I'm not defending Brown. Its the GM's job to make trades and determine whats best for the team. What was LB supposed to say? "I dont really like Francis but Isiah cant say no?" Please tell me in the history of the NBA where a coach said he wasnt excited or happy or wanted a certain player that just got traded to them. Please... use some common sense.

Larry Brown isnt the GM. I dont care if he stays or goes, because so long as we have THIS GM our team will be f@cked up, you can be sure of that.

Fish I know you can't be that naive, Thomas was quoted as saying that he will do anything that Brown asked of him to get him players he wanted. I am going to find that quote where Isiah said he would risk a messy divorce with Brown to get the man what he needs at the time he was brought in. To clear up all this Brown didn't want this guy. Thats the same as Riley coming out saying he had no control of player personnel decision while with the Knicks. Hey fired Thomas for having faith in Brown, make Brown the GM, trade Frye and Nate for Snow and find out where Tyrone Hill these days.
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Pharzeone
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5/19/2006  9:58 AM
I believe 100% that Brown wanted to replace Marbury with Francis. Thomas tried to find takers for Marbury. Aparently initial talks with Minn resulted in the owner laying out a possible scenario. The problem is that Brown doesn't like any young point. Billups, Iverson, Parker and Marbury. If you are a scoring pg Brown has an issue with you.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
BasketballJones
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5/19/2006  10:16 AM
I would hope that if Isiah thought a trading decision was truly bad he would not make it, even if the coach requested it. Does he not at least have that much power? Unless he wanted to be able to undermine the coach later by being able to say "I didn't want this loser. It was all Larry's idea. Larry made me do it."

Why would he want to undermine his own coach - the one he hired? Maybe a more logical answer is that they were working together and therefore should both share the blame for these trades (assuming they were really bad trades and not a part of some longer range plan).
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Nalod
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5/19/2006  10:48 AM
It is hard to trust anything Dolan or Isiah says.

Larry, while wrong to do so, seems to be more telling of what is going on. Right or wrong.

Isiah has a history of distortion.

Dolan is a mental midget.
OldFan
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5/19/2006  10:23 PM
I think Brown wanted a pass first PG and guys who could play defense.

I don't think he was looking to get a guy like Francis but when it came to getting Francis for nothing (money which Brown didn't care about and a second year player he had no use for) - he approved of it.

I'm sure after all the B-tching he did about the roster that it was made clear that if the deal went thru - he better strongly endorse it. I think it was probably the same with Jalen - he wasn't on Larry's wish list but was better then nothing.

holfresh
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5/19/2006  10:36 PM
Posted by Nalod:

It is hard to trust anything Dolan or Isiah says.

Larry, while wrong to do so, seems to be more telling of what is going on. Right or wrong.

Isiah has a history of distortion.

Dolan is a mental midget.

Dolan is a mental midget and Brown tells the truth....What universe are you living in Nolad...Hell I know you hate Marbury and love Brown but not even you can be this warped...





[Edited by - holfresh on 05-19-2006 10:39 PM]
holfresh
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5/19/2006  10:38 PM
Posted by OldFan:

I think Brown wanted a pass first PG and guys who could play defense.

I don't think he was looking to get a guy like Francis but when it came to getting Francis for nothing (money which Brown didn't care about and a second year player he had no use for) - he approved of it.

I'm sure after all the B-tching he did about the roster that it was made clear that if the deal went thru - he better strongly endorse it. I think it was probably the same with Jalen - he wasn't on Larry's wish list but was better then nothing.



Right ..nothing is Larry's fault and everything is Isiah and Dolan's fault...Some how the team that Larry coached won 23 games...Wow, how did that happen...
Nalod
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5/19/2006  10:56 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Nalod:

It is hard to trust anything Dolan or Isiah says.

Larry, while wrong to do so, seems to be more telling of what is going on. Right or wrong.

Isiah has a history of distortion.

Dolan is a mental midget.

Dolan is a mental midget and Brown tells the truth....What universe are you living in Nolad...Hell I know you hate Marbury and love Brown but not even you can be this warped...





[Edited by - holfresh on 05-19-2006 10:39 PM]


You buy their crap lock stock and barrel. Forget larry for second, look at the last few years and tell me. Why is dolan firing Larry? It has nothing to do with the games. Its about Dolan.

Dolan rewards guys for loyalty like Herb and Chaney cuz they suck up to the boss. Lenny was fooled into believing. Herb was going for his chance. Layden was quiet, Isiah is a company man. See the pattern. Speak out and be banished. No matter the cost. Look at the "Gulag" article today. We are getting some insight to the maddness.

Dolan rewared Sather for 7 years of not making the playoffs with the biggest payroll cuz he was quiet. Isiah is beholden to Dolan becasue of AnuchaGate. Your blaming Larry for crushing the egos of multimillion dollar professionals and ruining the team? Or trying to do a palace coup? How dramatic!

I repeat, Larry did a shoyt job. He tried everything.

Names on a roster don't make for a good team.
djsunyc
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5/19/2006  10:56 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by OldFan:

I think Brown wanted a pass first PG and guys who could play defense.

I don't think he was looking to get a guy like Francis but when it came to getting Francis for nothing (money which Brown didn't care about and a second year player he had no use for) - he approved of it.

I'm sure after all the B-tching he did about the roster that it was made clear that if the deal went thru - he better strongly endorse it. I think it was probably the same with Jalen - he wasn't on Larry's wish list but was better then nothing.



Right ..nothing is Larry's fault and everything is Isiah and Dolan's fault...Some how the team that Larry coached won 23 games...Wow, how did that happen...


holfresh, if you're looking to hear everyone say larry played a part in 23 wins - you won't have to look far. he was the head coach and the team won 23 games. of course he was a part of it. but a couple of things...i think you're overestimating exactly how many more wins we would have if he coached like lenny. maybe 30-35 wins but not much more. secondly, a coach that did coach like lenny is not what was hired. it was a coach to help develop the team and transform them into winners. unfortunately, there was resistance. so what is lb supposed to do when faced with resistance? was he supposed to succomb to it b/c he was fearful of his job or was he supposed to challenge it? he's going to challenge it b/c that's how he's always been. he's had his methods for 30 years and he's never compromised them. he has his own ways of coaching and it's been proven to work everywhere he's gone. the most recent example is philly where the team he inherited was lost and he took them to the finals in 3-4 years.

nobody is saying lb is innocent here. but what people are saying is that there were mitigating circumstances which may have lead to some of his "questionable" coaching maneuvers and media decisions this year. and these mitigating circumstances have been in existance BEFORE he even got here. he's just one of the few guys that was not going to succumb to them and bring them out in the open.

this season HAD to happen. we had to be exposed as an organization that had no clue what it was doing. an organization that had leadership issues from upstairs to the court. and lb played a big part in exposing it. for that, we should all be thankful. whether he's to blame for 23 wins is not the question. the question is that now everyone sees what's going on, what will this team do about it? getting rid of brown is premature at this point. and keeping him on will most likely lead to the team getting better next year and the year after. then we will all look back at this season as the turning point.

lb had probably underestimated the power of the ny media. underestimated the amount of backing he would get from above. and underestimated the humilty (really the lackthereof) from the players.

so he made mistakes. but the end goal of this nonsense is a good one and it's the goal i think he wanted to achieve. expose this organization for being a f'ed up one.

dolan doesn't want to be shown that. he doesn't like players, coaches, or gm's showing him up. he surrounds himself with yes-men and has been operating that way for a while...until now. looks like lb is the first non-yes man that's taken the coaching job since van gundy (and not a coincidence he left). so what does dolan do now? does he fire lb b/c he doesn't like to be made an idiot out of or does he learn from this, realize what the problem is, and let lb coach this team again next season.

this year HAD to happen. and only a few could've brought things to light. lb was one of those guys.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-19-2006 10:59 PM]
Nalod
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5/19/2006  11:03 PM
LB showed up how pathetic the construction of the team was. Chock full of talent, but redundant talent and bad charactor. Stuff that don't show up on paper or on fantasy teams.
TMS
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5/22/2006  1:57 PM
Posted by fishmike:

what a shocker... it all comes down to the GM. I understood the TT/Nazr trade when it happened but Lenny was right. That group was playing very well, KVH was playing very well and he and Marbury were having a good second go at it. Also Doleac was thriving with that jumper. That may have been the best team (there's been 1000) under Isiah Thomas here. They had Deke/KT up front, they had some good shooters to feed off of Marbury. It was the closest thing to a team Isiah has created since being here.


couldn't agree more... that team had the best chemistry as a group from what i could tell, but that was still early in Marbury's stint here, so he was understandably under his best behavior at that point... i believe now that he woulda reverted back to his old Starbury self regardless if they made that TT/Nazr trade or not... it's in his nature to yell at more submissive guys like Nazr for not rotating over to the guy who just blew right past Marbury's matador defense on the perimeter... Marbury's a classic example of a spoiled schoolyard bully who's all bark & no bite... as soon as a guy like Q Rich or KT stands up to him, he shrivels like the coward he is... i can't stand that guy anymore... everytime i see Marbury's smug look on his face i just wanna puke.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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