Posted by BlueSeats:

That's what I think he signed on for, expecting to have to move two, one being easy as an expiring, but also willing to keep Steph if he's a good soldier. But then James turns out to be a waste that disappointed isiah as much as anybody, PLUS, rather than adding a couple of "Brown" guys isiah saddles him with Jalen and Francis too.

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by BlueSeats:

That's what I think he signed on for, expecting to have to move two, one being easy as an expiring, but also willing to keep Steph if he's a good soldier. But then James turns out to be a waste that disappointed isiah as much as anybody, PLUS, rather than adding a couple of "Brown" guys isiah saddles him with Jalen and Francis too.

Every report, including direct quotes indicate that Brown asked for Francis, and every report except vescey's as of yesterday said Brown wanted Jalen here as well.

TMS, saying LB was man enough to take accountability is a big crock of BS to me. I am not calling him an LB lover. I just think its laughable for someone to say he took accoutnability. LB didnt take accountability, if he did he wouldn't be calling for a total overhaul of the roster. He wouldn't have complained about trades for players that he requested (steve and jalen). He wouldn't have just said "I take responsibility for this season". Saying it doesn't mean anything. He said "you're the best pg and we have the worst record in the league" in the very same paragraph that he said "I take accountability for the teams performance". Thats my point. He did not, and still has not taken accountability. To me, taking accountability is not demanding that you trade half of the roster because you don't like them, or they aren't your type of players. They didn't perform for him because he coached them poorly, period, not vice versa. He had everyone giving 100% (except JJ) in the beginning of the season, and he bashed guys at the end of every game at some point very early in the season.

Taking accountability to me, means saying that i grossly mismanaged this team, and its talent, and I will take this same team (or practically the same team) and do with them, what I failed to do last season, which is coach them to the best of my ability, and work with Isiah to make any necasary changes along the way. I can get more out of this roster and I should have and I failed at that, and I would like to have another oppurtunity to do that. <---- Thats taking accountability.

I say this as a Knick fan who really doesn't have a problem with LB coming back, I said it before Steph did in the 9 page LB thread. I just think LB needs to tone himself down, he is not bigger or better than the org. and he cannot continue to do what he did last season. He can't think that he can just do, say, and act anyway he wants and he will have a job.

A resume' gets you a job, your performance is what determines whether you keep it or not. You could make the argument either way to keep him or dump him, but if he stays, he MUST change some things, that part is not negotiable, imo.

Thats my beef, its that I don't think LB took accountability.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by BlueSeats:

That's what I think he signed on for, expecting to have to move two, one being easy as an expiring, but also willing to keep Steph if he's a good soldier. But then James turns out to be a waste that disappointed isiah as much as anybody, PLUS, rather than adding a couple of "Brown" guys isiah saddles him with Jalen and Francis too.

Every report, including direct quotes indicate that Brown asked for Francis, and every report except vescey's as of yesterday said Brown wanted Jalen here as well.

I understand that, but just knowing what Brown wants, and the way he reacted to their arrival, i think logic dictates that isiah told him something like: "I know who you want and we just can't get them. But we also can't finish in last place. Steph is out and we need some wins. These are the only two guys Dolan is willing to sign off on. Do you want them or not?"

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Blue, c'mon man, your first mistake:
1. Knowing what Brown wants and what logic dictates are incredible assumptions to begin with, so basing anything on that is just crazy, imo. Logic would dictate that LB would do a better job coaching this team, but we know what happened.

2. The impassioned plea that Zeke makes to LB is very unrealistic, imo. Not to mention the fact that there is a quote where LB says he was "buggin" Zeke to get Francis. So this "do you want them or not ?'" scenario seems waaaaaay off base. I think on this issue, you are motivated by a desire to absolve LB from responisbility of requesting a player and then using them haphazardly, but that is exactly what happened.

LB definitely requested Francis, and I believe there is evidence that LB wanted Jalen as well.

I'm not trying to absolve LB on these trades, this is one of the first times I've posted on the matter. But we've read that the francis deal only went down because a portland deal fell thru. It was a consolation prize. and we've read from vescey that LB fronted for the organizsation, so I'm not pulling this out of my butt, thank you very much pharzone. Plus we know these are the types of deals isiah was doing well before brown arrived.

The Jalen move was strictly tactical. Management know AD's expiring contact couldn't net them anything of value last year so with Jalen they deferred it to this year and picked up a pick in the process. Both can be used in going for a Garnett or JO this off-season or at the deadline.

If you think Jalen or Francis were Brown's first choices in terms of getting "his guys" you're nuts and you know it.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Blue, c'mon man, your first mistake:
1. Knowing what Brown wants and what logic dictates are incredible assumptions to begin with, so basing anything on that is just crazy, imo. Logic would dictate that LB would do a better job coaching this team, but we know what happened.

2. The impassioned plea that Zeke makes to LB is very unrealistic, imo. Not to mention the fact that there is a quote where LB says he was "buggin" Zeke to get Francis. So this "do you want them or not ?'" scenario seems waaaaaay off base. I think on this issue, you are motivated by a desire to absolve LB from responisbility of requesting a player and then using them haphazardly, but that is exactly what happened.

LB definitely requested Francis, and I believe there is evidence that LB wanted Jalen as well.

I'm not trying to absolve LB on these trades, this is one of the first times I've posted on the matter. But we've read that the francis deal only went down because a portland deal fell thru. It was a consolation prize. and we've read from vescey that LB fronted for the organizsation, so I'm not pulling this out of my butt, thank you very much pharzone. Plus we know these are the types of deals isiah was doing well before brown arrived.

The Jalen move was strictly tactical. Management know AD's expiring contact couldn't net them anything of value last year so with Jalen they deferred it to this year and picked up a pick in the process. Both can be used in going for a Garnett or JO this off-season or at the deadline.

If you think Jalen or Francis were Brown's first choices in terms of getting "his guys" you're nuts and you know it.

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by BlueSeats:

That's my take on it killa, take it for what it's worth. It just happens to be a whole lot more logical than the alternatives, but if they suit you better, be my guest.

Oh, and should I assume you don't subscribe to this LB buyout scenario, seeing as how Peter Vescey reported it?

Blue, everyone has reported it, you reaching for straws man.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by BlueSeats:

That's my take on it killa, take it for what it's worth. It just happens to be a whole lot more logical than the alternatives, but if they suit you better, be my guest.

Oh, and should I assume you don't subscribe to this LB buyout scenario, seeing as how Peter Vescey reported it?

Blue, everyone has reported it, you reaching for straws man.

No killa, "everyone" reported the statements issued by the organization. Vescey reported what inside sources told him. Not everyone has inside sources, which is why this whole LB buyout thing stems from Vescey's reporting.

Brown and his agent Glass said that Vescey lied about him back with the Pistons and blames Vescey and the Post for getting him fired. Vescey also reported that a source (hope it ain't the same one) told him that Brown demanded Francis. Also, that Vescey article is being so heavily criticized by other writers I expect him to write a recant or explain it away. If you look at the article he doesn't even quote the source. I will take Mike Francesa on this one, who knows Brown well, and was pretty sure that Brown had alot to do with both the Francis and Rose trades. He even went further and said he had alot of input of trades since he was hired. Hell Brown told you himself. If Brown was fronting for the Knicks on these trades then he went far and beyond the call of duty because he gave unnecessary press clippings about the trades.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by Killa4luv:
Its not that big a deal to be wrong about this, why are you fighting on this?

I'm not fighting it, I'm giving my take on it. and pharzone cited mike francesa on the matter but I heard francesa specifically say "you can tell larry didn't want those guys by the way he used them, thats how brown tells you." So we definitely heard two different episodes.

And we also heard that brown wanted a deal from Portland, darius miles even said he was almost certain it was going down.

So you have two different scenarios reported, one makes sense and the other one doesn't, but because the one that doesn't make sense is negative toward brown that's the one you insist MUST be true.

Blue, Francesa said that Brown wasn't happy with after the trade which I don't deny. You are taking what he said out of context. Francesa and Ruso definately said that Brown had input on those trades. They even mock the situation, with a normal Ruso come on Larry. I have no doubt that Brown isn't happy with Francis and Rose. People also said that it was Thomas who wanted K-Mart but according to Berman its Brown and Dolan is worry about luxury tax implications. Listen Brown souring on a player he once liked on another team ain't new to Brown. He did it with KVH. Pushed King to make that trade with NJ only to spend every game finding fault with KVH.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Phar, first off, we probably simply heard different episodes of the program. I'm not a regular listenr to their show but I'm sure they talk about this subject a lot. what you discuss does not ring a bell for me.

Now, to the larger issue... I don't dispute that Larry probably signed off on the deals, but I don't think they were high on his list. I think they were tactical moves as described by the organization in their aftermath:

Assets.

The Jalen trade deferred AD's expiring contract a year and added a pick. That one I think is obvious. And it was after the francis deal that the organization leaked that Francis was viewed as bait in a KG or JO push this summer.

That's what those trades were about, collecting assets to go for a big fish while still having talent left over for said fish to play with. All styled on Miami's deal for Shaq while retaining Wade, and Houston's deal for T-mac while retaining Yao.

Whether Larry wants k-mart or not is unclear as there is logic to the notion that if his good friend karl doesn't want him neither would he. However, I do believe there was probably a deal that fell thru involving some combination of portland players because Miles said so, and isiah's been pursuing Miles since at least Cleveland.

So when the preferred deals feel thru they went to these fallback deals that are really gambles designed to come to fruition in starphucking glory by the trade deadline. KG and JO are guys that Larry, Isiah and Dolan would all be in agreement on. Jalen and Francis were merely stages in the process.