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what was our style of play supposed to be?
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fishmike
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5/10/2006  4:39 PM
oohah, I agree that we have excellent athletes and players that can excel in the open court. Once we have the ball and we are pushing it up the court we have a lot of guys that can really finish. Heck... we've seen it all year. We had a ton of great dunks this year. Lee had some sick ones, and guys like Marbury, Nate and Frye are excellent finishers. Our assets end there. When you look at the Suns, Nets and Mavs we are lacking in so many areas.

Our guards dont rebound and push. Kidd is the best in the NBA at this. Its not the 10 boards he can get you on any given night, its every one of those 10 has him pushing the ball the other way
Our guards dont make good decisions during breaks with a one man advantage. We over pass or attack the rim when the only defender is right in front of the man with the ball
We dont have a dominating rebounder. We collect rebounds, but we dont have one guy that owns the glass. Watch how many easy buckets are created when Ben Wallace outlets to Prince, Rip and Billups. Dallas has Dirk who's great on the defensive glass but their guards also rebound very well. Daniels, Crackhouse and Howard are all good at that.
Last and most important our defense sucks. If you think Pho doesnt play D watch how they help, watch how fast they rotate and get in passing lanes. The Nets do the same. They create a lot of turnover and get their hands on a lot of balls. We stand around and think about how to score.

This is why so much of this comes down to Marbury. Remember Steph was in Mike D's system and he didnt "buy into it."
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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oohah
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5/10/2006  5:03 PM
oohah, I agree that we have excellent athletes and players that can excel in the open court. Once we have the ball and we are pushing it up the court we have a lot of guys that can really finish. Heck... we've seen it all year. We had a ton of great dunks this year. Lee had some sick ones, and guys like Marbury, Nate and Frye are excellent finishers. Our assets end there. When you look at the Suns, Nets and Mavs we are lacking in so many areas.

Indubitably.
Our guards dont rebound and push. Kidd is the best in the NBA at this. Its not the 10 boards he can get you on any given night, its every one of those 10 has him pushing the ball the other way
Our guards dont make good decisions during breaks with a one man advantage. We over pass or attack the rim when the only defender is right in front of the man with the ball

Practice makes perfect. Lee was the best rebounder, and I saw him make some wonderful outlet passes. He can also ignite the break himself becuause he has decent dribbling skills and excellent passing ability.
We dont have a dominating rebounder. We collect rebounds, but we dont have one guy that owns the glass. Watch how many easy buckets are created when Ben Wallace outlets to Prince, Rip and Billups. Dallas has Dirk who's great on the defensive glass but their guards also rebound very well. Daniels, Crackhouse and Howard are all good at that.

Those teams are so much better in every way, that is true. But I think the question is: How can the Knicks be better than they were?
Last and most important our defense sucks. If you think Pho doesnt play D watch how they help, watch how fast they rotate and get in passing lanes. The Nets do the same. They create a lot of turnover and get their hands on a lot of balls. We stand around and think about how to score.

During the 6 game streak, they pressured the ball more and created turnovers which led to easy baskets. The Knicks don't have good half-court defensive players in the front or back court. They are slightly better when trying to force errors with a ball-pressure defense. I prefer slightly better.
This is why so much of this comes down to Marbury. Remember Steph was in Mike D's system and he didnt "buy into it."

Yes, well Steph is a fool. But I saw that he tried this year, however the team played terribly even as he tried. I think LB's system was not going to work whether or not he bought in.

Bring on Jerry Tarkanian!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Pharzeone
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5/10/2006  5:15 PM
The 6 degrees of separation of Starbury.
Apparently all trouble in the universe can be pointed back to Starbury. Why not he is perfect scapegoat. I am going to sit down and see if it maps out. Anytime I get chewed out by my boss for making a foolish decision, I didn't do it, it Steph's fault. I watched him a post game report where he said it thought it was a good play. Police raid my home to find illegal substances, you know who's fault it is. That damn Starbury made me want to get high after passing up the shot. The Apolcalypse happening now, you know who is to blame.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
knicks1248
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5/10/2006  7:26 PM
Before we go blaming the players for not giving into LB system, just think about the injuries, the 42 different line ups, the roles changing from game to game, the baggering, the useless trade to bring in francis, and the ridiculous idea of put together a team of non defensive minds, and adding one more along the way.
ES
Pharzeone
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5/10/2006  8:12 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

Before we go blaming the players for not giving into LB system, just think about the injuries, the 42 different line ups, the roles changing from game to game, the baggering, the useless trade to bring in francis, and the ridiculous idea of put together a team of non defensive minds, and adding one more along the way.

Don't you know. That's Starbury's fault.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
bobs3304
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5/10/2006  9:27 PM
hypothetically, an ideal trade to match our tempo would be marbury, rose, d. lee, and 1st for jones, cardinal, warrick, 2nd.

D. Lee excels more in a half court set, while Warrick is MUCH better in transition.

I got a feeling Brown, like you guys said, will inevitably have to change his game plan.

With guys like Crawford, Frye, Nate, and possibly Kmart, etc......we're best suited for Denver style of basketball.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
knicks1248
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5/10/2006  9:52 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

hypothetically, an ideal trade to match our tempo would be marbury, rose, d. lee, and 1st for jones, cardinal, warrick, 2nd.

D. Lee excels more in a half court set, while Warrick is MUCH better in transition.

I got a feeling Brown, like you guys said, will inevitably have to change his game plan.

With guys like Crawford, Frye, Nate, and possibly Kmart, etc......we're best suited for Denver style of basketball.


Lb won't change his style if his life depended on it, he's just to old and to set in his ways to even fathom the the thought. The system he has will always work despite the talant. It's basic fundamentals, forget the plan IT had, that went out the window when he fired Chaney.

You ask how the suns win with no D, they shoot 6 seconds into the shot clock, you have to out score the suns, they never give you enough time to set your defense up.Quick pass, dribble into the lane, kick out, move the ball.

The suns play so free and easy anybody can play in that system other then shaq.
ES
BlueSeats
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5/10/2006  10:17 PM
Posted by knicks1248:
Posted by bobs3304:

hypothetically, an ideal trade to match our tempo would be marbury, rose, d. lee, and 1st for jones, cardinal, warrick, 2nd.

D. Lee excels more in a half court set, while Warrick is MUCH better in transition.

I got a feeling Brown, like you guys said, will inevitably have to change his game plan.

With guys like Crawford, Frye, Nate, and possibly Kmart, etc......we're best suited for Denver style of basketball.


Lb won't change his style if his life depended on it, he's just to old and to set in his ways to even fathom the the thought. The system he has will always work despite the talant. It's basic fundamentals, forget the plan IT had, that went out the window when he fired Chaney.

You ask how the suns win with no D, they shoot 6 seconds into the shot clock, you have to out score the suns, they never give you enough time to set your defense up.Quick pass, dribble into the lane, kick out, move the ball.

The suns play so free and easy anybody can play in that system other then shaq.

Just don't discount Nash's contribution to making that system work. Most other teams that try it are first round exits, if they get that far.

But I know it's hard for many to accept the power of PGs, good and bad, as we see from those who would have us believe Steph was nothing but a positive for us.

djsunyc
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5/10/2006  10:25 PM
golden state plays an up and down style. that's what we would've looked like if we tried the same.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-10-2006 10:26 PM]
holfresh
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5/10/2006  10:38 PM
Posted by fishmike:

oohah, I agree that we have excellent athletes and players that can excel in the open court. Once we have the ball and we are pushing it up the court we have a lot of guys that can really finish. Heck... we've seen it all year. We had a ton of great dunks this year. Lee had some sick ones, and guys like Marbury, Nate and Frye are excellent finishers. Our assets end there. When you look at the Suns, Nets and Mavs we are lacking in so many areas.

Our guards dont rebound and push. Kidd is the best in the NBA at this. Its not the 10 boards he can get you on any given night, its every one of those 10 has him pushing the ball the other way
Our guards dont make good decisions during breaks with a one man advantage. We over pass or attack the rim when the only defender is right in front of the man with the ball
We dont have a dominating rebounder. We collect rebounds, but we dont have one guy that owns the glass. Watch how many easy buckets are created when Ben Wallace outlets to Prince, Rip and Billups. Dallas has Dirk who's great on the defensive glass but their guards also rebound very well. Daniels, Crackhouse and Howard are all good at that.
Last and most important our defense sucks. If you think Pho doesnt play D watch how they help, watch how fast they rotate and get in passing lanes. The Nets do the same. They create a lot of turnover and get their hands on a lot of balls. We stand around and think about how to score.

This is why so much of this comes down to Marbury. Remember Steph was in Mike D's system and he didnt "buy into it."


Please don't tell me a team that was just in a game where the score was 130-123 in regulation time, defense was being played...




[Edited by - holfresh on 05-10-2006 11:06 PM]
oohah
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5/10/2006  10:43 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

golden state plays an up and down style. that's what we would've looked like if we tried the same.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-10-2006 10:26 PM]


34 wins? That's 11 games better than the Knicks, And the Warriors play in a better division. Sounds better than 23 to me.

If we get 34 next season Brown will be hailed as genius and everyone will be going nuts about the "progress"!

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
franco12
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5/10/2006  11:57 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:


Really I think just because our guys DON'T execute well in the low box, OR on the perimeter, it's assumed they'd be better off in an up-tempo game, (because there's nowhere else to go...) But if my memory serves me correctly we actually began the season at a quicker tempo, but unfortunately with that style we led the league in turnovers, were losing constantly, and guys like Frye and Malik were telling Brown he should slow it down to get higher percentage executions.

When running didn't work we slowed it down. When slowing it down didn't work fans wanted us to run. In either instance it's about execution, and that's something we never did well.

I think we led the league in turnovers because somewhere this season Larry Brown set a record for most starting line ups - and although I will grant you we have some dumb players that don't understand the game, if LB had, like every other coach in the league, picked and played with a set line up and rotation, I would hazzard to bet money that turnovers would have gone down. I'm not saying we would have won more games.
BlueSeats
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5/11/2006  3:08 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by BlueSeats:


Really I think just because our guys DON'T execute well in the low box, OR on the perimeter, it's assumed they'd be better off in an up-tempo game, (because there's nowhere else to go...) But if my memory serves me correctly we actually began the season at a quicker tempo, but unfortunately with that style we led the league in turnovers, were losing constantly, and guys like Frye and Malik were telling Brown he should slow it down to get higher percentage executions.

When running didn't work we slowed it down. When slowing it down didn't work fans wanted us to run. In either instance it's about execution, and that's something we never did well.

I think we led the league in turnovers because somewhere this season Larry Brown set a record for most starting line ups - and although I will grant you we have some dumb players that don't understand the game, if LB had, like every other coach in the league, picked and played with a set line up and rotation, I would hazzard to bet money that turnovers would have gone down. I'm not saying we would have won more games.

I for one don't dispute that there were certain things that larry could have done for the sake of continuity, and even for a few more wins, I just think they pale in comparison to guys like Curry, Mo and James being very out of shape and starting out injured; Antonio Davis not wanting to be here and having the worst +/- stats in the league; Q starting out with a bad back, a bad ankle, a murdered brother and his worst season ever; Marbury dragging his feet against the system all season; Crawford going numb in Marbury's absence; the owner needing to quell a mutiny; etc, etc.

My real point was that we tried up-tempo, we tried down-tempo, the execution was never there. I think the lineups business is over played. Most of them were minor tweaks. for the most part when Marbury, Q, AD, and curry were healthy and available they started. In a normal, stable, healthy season I believe our rotation would have been/become Marbury, Q, Woods, AD, Curry. But for better or worse we had a lot of injuries and roster turnover that allowed the kids to get some starts and also required Francis and Jalen to get some looks. Then the loss of AD required Looks at Frye, Taylor and Malik.

But Rick Carlisle and the Pacers used 30 something lineups without them crumbling. The Suns keep winning regardless of who goes down or gets suspended... at a certain point the players just gotta go out there and execute.

It's times like these I need to remind us that we only won 33 the year before, including a 2-15 January, with more continuity to the roster and better rebounders and defenders.

There are things I accepted from LB this year that I don't want or expect him to repeat, but at the same time we have to hold the players accountable for their play on the court. There was only one stretch of the season where we were competitive and I simply don't find it a coincidence that it occurred when our "best player" was playing like it mattered. I also don't consider it a coincidence that we got a small boost when the owner told the team nobody in management was getting fired. And then again when our new "best player" (Crawford) stepped up his game.

Sustained effort would have gone a long way. A lot farther than a consistent lineup, IMO.
holfresh
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5/11/2006  3:24 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by BlueSeats:


Really I think just because our guys DON'T execute well in the low box, OR on the perimeter, it's assumed they'd be better off in an up-tempo game, (because there's nowhere else to go...) But if my memory serves me correctly we actually began the season at a quicker tempo, but unfortunately with that style we led the league in turnovers, were losing constantly, and guys like Frye and Malik were telling Brown he should slow it down to get higher percentage executions.

When running didn't work we slowed it down. When slowing it down didn't work fans wanted us to run. In either instance it's about execution, and that's something we never did well.

I think we led the league in turnovers because somewhere this season Larry Brown set a record for most starting line ups - and although I will grant you we have some dumb players that don't understand the game, if LB had, like every other coach in the league, picked and played with a set line up and rotation, I would hazzard to bet money that turnovers would have gone down. I'm not saying we would have won more games.

I for one don't dispute that there were certain things that larry could have done for the sake of continuity, and even for a few more wins, I just think they pale in comparison to guys like Curry, Mo and James being very out of shape and starting out injured; Antonio Davis not wanting to be here and having the worst +/- stats in the league; Q starting out with a bad back, a bad ankle, a murdered brother and his worst season ever; Marbury dragging his feet against the system all season; Crawford going numb in Marbury's absence; the owner needing to quell a mutiny; etc, etc.

My real point was that we tried up-tempo, we tried down-tempo, the execution was never there. I think the lineups business is over played. Most of them were minor tweaks. for the most part when Marbury, Q, AD, and curry were healthy and available they started. In a normal, stable, healthy season I believe our rotation would have been/become Marbury, Q, Woods, AD, Curry. But for better or worse we had a lot of injuries and roster turnover that allowed the kids to get some starts and also required Francis and Jalen to get some looks. Then the loss of AD required Looks at Frye, Taylor and Malik.

But Rick Carlisle and the Pacers used 30 something lineups without them crumbling. The Suns keep winning regardless of who goes down or gets suspended... at a certain point the players just gotta go out there and execute.

It's times like these I need to remind us that we only won 33 the year before, including a 2-15 January, with more continuity to the roster and better rebounders and defenders.

There are things I accepted from LB this year that I don't want or expect him to repeat, but at the same time we have to hold the players accountable for their play on the court. There was only one stretch of the season where we were competitive and I simply don't find it a coincidence that it occurred when our "best player" was playing like it mattered. I also don't consider it a coincidence that we got a small boost when the owner told the team nobody in management was getting fired. And then again when our new "best player" (Crawford) stepped up his game.

Sustained effort would have gone a long way. A lot farther than a consistent lineup, IMO.



While I agree with some of your points regarding players need to be held accountable, as they are professional getting paid lots of money to be just that, professionals...The examples you brought up in the Suns and the Pacers who has had a core of players that has been playing together much longer than our team has...Basically we have an entire new team out there...Along with a new coach...The Knicks had their worst stretch when Marbs was hurt, not when he decided not to play....by the way, when did he decide not to play, the Orlando game? Sustained effort is a must, but nothing came replace chemistry and familiarity...Baseball is about consistency, basketball is about chemistry...

BlueSeats
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5/11/2006  3:42 AM
Posted by holfresh:

While I agree with some of your points regarding players need to be held accountable, as they are professional getting paid lots of money to be just that, professionals...The examples you brought up in the Suns and the Pacers who has had a core of players that has been playing together much longer than our team has...Basically we have an entire new team out there...Along with a new coach...

Last year the Suns won the most games in the league with a new coach, new system, new floor leader and two new starters. In contrast, the year before with marbury and Hardaway they had one of their worst preseasons ever as well as starting the regularly season poorly in spite of returning with the same team that had playoff success against the Spurs the year before.

The whole continuity thing is secondary to chemistry, and sometimes chemistry is IMPROVED via change, as I hope and suspect ours will be this summer.
The Knicks had their worst stretch when Marbs was hurt, not when he decided not to play....by the way, when did he decide not to play, the Orlando game?


I never said he decided not to play, I used terms like dragging his feet against the system vs playing like it mattered.

Sustained effort is a must, but nothing came replace chemistry and familiarity...Baseball is about consistency, basketball is about chemistry...

Indeed. Attitude adjustments and chemistry is the next frontier for this team. Familiarity again is secondary because familiarity and bad chemistry is NOT a good thing. Ever hear the expression "familiarity breeds contempt?"
holfresh
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5/11/2006  3:51 AM

Familiarity is terms of knowing where a teammate is most effective on the court...the top three scorers on Phoenix was still intact from the previous year....Nash is a great passer...But they still don't play D...Frank Johnson was just a horrible coach..he had not control of the team in terms of knowing what offense best suited his team...Marbs was credited for implementing a new system that took them into the playoffs..After that happened there was no way he could be a succesful coach again...by the way coaches matter in the league as well...See our current NY Knickbockers...





[Edited by - holfresh on 05-11-2006 03:52 AM]
BlueSeats
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5/11/2006  12:01 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Familiarity is terms of knowing where a teammate is most effective on the court...the top three scorers on Phoenix was still intact from the previous year....Nash is a great passer...But they still don't play D...Frank Johnson was just a horrible coach..he had not control of the team in terms of knowing what offense best suited his team...Marbs was credited for implementing a new system that took them into the playoffs..After that happened there was no way he could be a succesful coach again...by the way coaches matter in the league as well...See our current NY Knickbockers...





[Edited by - holfresh on 05-11-2006 03:52 AM]

What are you trying to say about Marbury and Johnson? Johnson wanted a motion offense and Marbury wanted to do his own pounding the ball on the perimeter and penetrate and dish thingy. They achieved mediocrity with it. Steph established himself as their "leader' as such. Then the other players tired of it and losing, malaise, poor chemistry, and bad body language set in. Colangelo decided to go in a more energetic direction, Marbury balked, they moved him, moved on and are succeeding without him.

So what's yer point?

djsunyc
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5/11/2006  12:06 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


Familiarity is terms of knowing where a teammate is most effective on the court...the top three scorers on Phoenix was still intact from the previous year....Nash is a great passer...But they still don't play D...Frank Johnson was just a horrible coach..he had not control of the team in terms of knowing what offense best suited his team...Marbs was credited for implementing a new system that took them into the playoffs..After that happened there was no way he could be a succesful coach again...by the way coaches matter in the league as well...See our current NY Knickbockers...





[Edited by - holfresh on 05-11-2006 03:52 AM]

What are you trying to say about Marbury and Johnson? Johnson wanted a motion offense and Marbury wanted to do his own pounding the ball on the perimeter and penetrate and dish thingy. They achieved mediocrity with it. Steph established himself as their "leader' as such. Then the other players tired of it and losing, malaise, poor chemistry, and bad body language set in. Colangelo decided to go in a more energetic direction, Marbury balked, they moved him, moved on and are succeeding without him.

So what's yer point?

but but but he's 20&8.

Bippity10
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5/11/2006  12:43 PM
We won 23 games, I think the last thing we should be focusing on is style of play.

Style of management is what we need to worry about.
I just hope that people will like me
oohah
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5/11/2006  1:53 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

We won 23 games, I think the last thing we should be focusing on is style of play.

Style of management is what we need to worry about.


Yes, because what actually happens on the court and determines the outcome of games is irrelevant.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
what was our style of play supposed to be?

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