Posted by rvhoss:

there are a couple that don't like steph as a person and are convinced that is the reason that we are no good. not because 4 of the other "starters" weere either over the hill or green as kermit.

By the time they brought in some support (jrose, franchise), LB had already given up on the season and Marbs was playing injured.

If you don't like marbs as a person, that's your perogative, but if you don't like his game, you know nothing about basketball and are not a knick fan. IMHO.

Wow. What about the fact that he's a guy who's stepped up his game very sporadically throughout his career and has had stretches with nearly evry franchise he's been on where everything falls apart and he has to be shipped out, much to everyone else's relief and the almost immediate resurgence of the franchise? THat's all a reflection of his game too, isn't it?

Posted by rvhoss:

Sporadically?

I say 20 points and 8 assits a game. Consistent production from a consistent player.

And don't regurgitate Brown's quote that they weren't real stats.

And no, the rest of the stuff you said is NOT a reflection of his game. Sorry.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 04-21-2006 09:47 AM]

rv, I say sporadically because in the course of every year of his career I've seen him have a stretch where he's played MVP-caliber ball and really lifted the team's performance. But he only does it for a short stretch per season. YOu can see him not handle adversity well when his effectiveness starts to wane. And his team alwasy takes a nosedive at that time.

As far as 20 and 8 go, how many years in the league with how many franchises with how many similar poor team results do you need to see before evaluating the guy as a player and his positive vs. negative influence on a team's winning? That's more important than the 20 and 8, don't you think?

And please tell me why the rest of the stuff is not a reflection of his game.

Posted by rvhoss:

the other team couldn't have adjusted their defense to account for the best player on the other team, at that point, marbs has always kept his assists up.

20 and 8 is 20 and 8.

Once again, you are talking about marbury as a person and nothing about his abilities as a player.

I repeat:
If you don't like marbs as a person, that's your perogative, but if you don't like his game, you know nothing about basketball and are not a knick fan. IMHO.

marv, looks like you know nothing about basketball and are not a knicks fan. IRVHO.

Posted by rvhoss:

DJ, marv never said he didn't like Marbs game. Nice try, try to keep up with the conversation.

marv, looks like dj can't keep up with the conversation. IRVHO.

I don't think they hear you rvhoss

Posted by Marv:

rv, I think you're engaigng in the love or hate Marbs debate, which is always fun and which i've participated in many times myself.

But i am talking about his performance on the court = his game and the results it's achieved consistently over his career across mamy different franchises, different teammates, different coaches.

The guy's performance has been sporadically and occasionally brilliant. His overall statistics averaged over his career are good. His impacat on a team's performance is almost always poor. Performance here = win/loss record, not love or hatred garnered.

Marv, you can look at a player and look at the teams record and draw a conclusion, that does not necasarily make it correct. Look at Cliff Robinson's career, he's been in the playoffs every year except one, does that necasarily say anything about his value or impact on a team?

Look at LB, look at our season and draw a conclusion.

Look at Crawford, he's been in the league 6 seasons, what his has impact been? As soon as he left chicago, they went to the playoffs. Do I blame him for that? Is he the reason for that?

My point is this: I believe in cause and effect. I do not believe in magic. I do not believe in a magical losing aura that hangs over an individual player/s. I watch games and I see what players do and evaluate them based on that. In the same way that I watch teams and evaluate them based on their collective play.

I've watched probably 90% or more of the games Steph has played in a Knick uniform. HIs game has flaws, and strengths. Point Blank to look at this season and say Stephon's play is the reason we sucked, is ridiculous and illogical. To look at his time in NJ and say that is equally as illogical, it really just doesn't make sense. Look at his impact on Minnesota, it doesn't fit into the cliche 'Steph leaves and teams get better' so it doesn't come up. Things are more complex than that and this "look at a player and look at wins/losses=their impact" is really lazy logic.

There are kids that I could recruit that could come into my program and easily average 20 pts and dish out 6 assists. Or go for 20 pts and average 8-10 boards. Many of these kids I would never let on my campus let alone on my team. On a good TEAM numbers will typically be lower. On a good TEAM guys will sacrifice numbers for the sake of the team. Not always, but often numbers do not tell the whole story.

If he just gave his heart and soul to each team his history would be easy to defend. Sometimes winning doesn't tell the whole story. But when a guy has a problem everywhere he goes it's probably not coincidence. I like Marbs, I want him to succeed WITH US. But if this nonsense doesn't change he has to go. I don't care if he hates LB and wants to stab him, he is not playing for LB. He is playing for us. Listen to the coach, give your hear and soul and he will be judged positively even if he averages 10 pts and 2 assists and doesn't win. See Charlie Ward for reference. Marbs needs to understand this. it's about team, not about "Starbury". Noone gives a flying fahoot about "Starbury". We care about the Knicks. Enough is enough

[Edited by - bippity10 on 04-21-2006 12:55 PM]

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by Bippity10:

If he just gave his heart and soul to each team his history would be easy to defend. Sometimes winning doesn't tell the whole story. But when a guy has a problem everywhere he goes it's probably not coincidence. I like Marbs, I want him to succeed WITH US. But if this nonsense doesn't change he has to go. I don't care if he hates LB and wants to stab him, he is not playing for LB. He is playing for us. Listen to the coach, give your hear and soul and he will be judged positively even if he averages 10 pts and 2 assists and doesn't win. See Charlie Ward for reference. Marbs needs to understand this. it's about team, not about "Starbury". Noone gives a flying fahoot about "Starbury". We care about the Knicks. Enough is enough

[Edited by - bippity10 on 04-21-2006 12:55 PM]

This may be a first Bip, but I totally agree with that...But I tell you this, even if Steph gave his heart and soul this year, no one else showed up to play or coach....

It frustrates us because this guy has so much ability and the problem with him is between his ears, nothing else....

First time you agree with me, and also the first time you've been right about something.