[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Coaching in this league may just have passed Larry bye, bye..
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 3 of 13 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4  5 Next ›Last »
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081
3/31/2006  3:01 PM
Posted by fishmike:

first of all I'm pretty sure LB gets trashed in the papers as well.

And lets get a couple of things straight.

Larry Brown is NOT overrated, and he's NOT slightly over .500

He's 933-713 regular season and 85-79 in the playoffs. In 23 years of coaching in the NBA he's had 3 losing seasons and 1 .500 season. There is no way around this fact. The guy coaches winning basketball. Want to say thats overrated? Want to say its good players and good teams and LB's impact is overrated? FINE go ahead. All that means is the collection of losers we have are losing regardless of who coaches them.
First of all it was Marb's that called Billups and not the other way around...
what did Bilups say?
Marbury has done what Larry has asked this year
thats funny... no he hasnt. This is what LB calls him out on. He ignores play calls. He freelances. LB has said this repeatedly.
By the way, what other point guard in this league plays great defense...Kidd plays very good defense in the post because of his strengh and size....Nash plays no defense...
lots do. Keep making excuses if it makes you feel better. Watch a Pho game.. please. Nash doesnt give up open 3's. He doesnt let his man go into the paint at will. He pressures the ball at times. No, he's not a lock down defender, but he doesnt make Delonte West, Tony Allen, Earl Boykins, Dre Miller or anyone else that he guards look like a superstar. Everyone Marbury guards has a great night.
So i ask you...What has to happen?
well here you have it, and I've laid this out a couple of times. Get players with less "talent" that are willing to play team ball, defend and let Larry coach.
No ifs ands or butts, GONE: Marbury, Mo Taylor, Jerome James, Jalen Rose
Stay: Frye, Curry, Lee, QRich, Malik Rose, Crawford, Butler
on the fence: Nate, QWoods, Francis

I dont care if guys need to be bought out, traded for expiring deals, or traded for bad deals that are cheaper and buying them out.

Draft guys from good programs that stayed in school and that play team ball and defend.
Go get some good blue collar guys that want to be here and play tough Larry/NY style basketball. Al Harrington, Kenny Thomas, Marcus Banks, Jaric, whoever. Its not rocket science. Doc Rivers got a no-name team to play .500 with nothing but scrubs because they played hard and shared the ball. The only guy that turned into anything from that team was Ben Wallace, and Det was 32-50 his first year there.

Holla!



Seems like you tried to address everything except one...When do you begin to hold Brown accountable? What has to happen in your eyes?

By the way that makes his record wins 1,006-792 losses...560 avg...hardly impressive...





[Edited by - holfresh on 03-31-2006 3:05 PM]
AUTOADVERT
joec32033
Posts: 30631
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
3/31/2006  3:33 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by fishmike:

first of all I'm pretty sure LB gets trashed in the papers as well.

And lets get a couple of things straight.

Larry Brown is NOT overrated, and he's NOT slightly over .500

He's 933-713 regular season and 85-79 in the playoffs. In 23 years of coaching in the NBA he's had 3 losing seasons and 1 .500 season. There is no way around this fact. The guy coaches winning basketball. Want to say thats overrated? Want to say its good players and good teams and LB's impact is overrated? FINE go ahead. All that means is the collection of losers we have are losing regardless of who coaches them.
First of all it was Marb's that called Billups and not the other way around...
what did Bilups say?
Marbury has done what Larry has asked this year
thats funny... no he hasnt. This is what LB calls him out on. He ignores play calls. He freelances. LB has said this repeatedly.
By the way, what other point guard in this league plays great defense...Kidd plays very good defense in the post because of his strengh and size....Nash plays no defense...
lots do. Keep making excuses if it makes you feel better. Watch a Pho game.. please. Nash doesnt give up open 3's. He doesnt let his man go into the paint at will. He pressures the ball at times. No, he's not a lock down defender, but he doesnt make Delonte West, Tony Allen, Earl Boykins, Dre Miller or anyone else that he guards look like a superstar. Everyone Marbury guards has a great night.
So i ask you...What has to happen?
well here you have it, and I've laid this out a couple of times. Get players with less "talent" that are willing to play team ball, defend and let Larry coach.
No ifs ands or butts, GONE: Marbury, Mo Taylor, Jerome James, Jalen Rose
Stay: Frye, Curry, Lee, QRich, Malik Rose, Crawford, Butler
on the fence: Nate, QWoods, Francis

I dont care if guys need to be bought out, traded for expiring deals, or traded for bad deals that are cheaper and buying them out.

Draft guys from good programs that stayed in school and that play team ball and defend.
Go get some good blue collar guys that want to be here and play tough Larry/NY style basketball. Al Harrington, Kenny Thomas, Marcus Banks, Jaric, whoever. Its not rocket science. Doc Rivers got a no-name team to play .500 with nothing but scrubs because they played hard and shared the ball. The only guy that turned into anything from that team was Ben Wallace, and Det was 32-50 his first year there.

Holla!



Seems like you tried to address everything except one...When do you begin to hold Brown accountable? What has to happen in your eyes?

By the way that makes his record wins 1,006-792 losses...560 avg...hardly impressive...





[Edited by - holfresh on 03-31-2006 3:05 PM]

Noone is saying LB has done a fantastic job...you know the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..." Larry seems to have tried everything to motivate and some guys took some guys didn't. It happens. I personally think that Steph has more tools than Billups and could be a better PG than Billups IF he meshed his style with Larry's. The think that Chauncy has that Steph doesn't is the mental toughness to take coaching and use it. Both were high first round picks, but Chauncy was quickly labeled a disappointment and moved round to like 5 times where he didn't even start on some of them. Steph has always been a "star" (even if it is in his own mind only) and he didn't have to earn anything. He was always the starter, always the marquee talent.

Comparing Iverson's heart to Stephon's is just out of whack. IMO NOONE measures up to Iverson's heart (I would rank him at least even to Jordan in that category). His "desire"..well...he could have seriously been considered one of the top 2 guards of ALL-Time if he totally devoted himself to practice and not eating taco's before games(that is a great example to set, huh?), IMO.

Steph's problem has NEVER been talent..it has been his head in that he thinks he is some type of annointed one who doesn't need to be coached. Like the old Chinese proverb says, a wise man is a man who knows he doesn't know it all....Steph is the total antithesis of this quote.
~You can't run from who you are.~
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
3/31/2006  3:39 PM
By the way that makes his record wins 1,006-792 losses...560 avg...hardly impressive...
find someone who's better. Pat Riley and Phil Jackson maybe? Who else? And how many of them were in rebuilding situations? Larry's in one now. He was in one w/ the Clippers and Nets also. 23 seasons and only 3 losing ones. Gee... would you sign up for that over the next 20 years? I'm thinking you would.

As for holding LB accountable? For what? What should I hold him accountable for? Guys being fat? Guys not playing hard? Guys being told to do the same things over and over and over again and failing to do so? He said it himself. In 20+ years of coaching this is the only team that refuses to do as he asks. Seeing as how what he asks produces wins, and these players have careers that have produced losses, I'm saying the problem first and formost is with the players.

I would hold Larry accountable if our kids didnt play. But we have been getting a extended looks at guys like Woods, Butler, Lee, Frye and Nate so thats good. I also like that he doesnt play them 10-15 minutes here or there. That they get 25-30 minute burns. I have no doubt each of those guys have benefitted from this year and grown. I've seen other positives as well. Like Crawford's drastic change in FTs to 3pt attempts.

As for JJ, Marbury, Jalen, Mo T they can go spit. Their careers are marked by constant losing, selfish play and poor work ethics. I hold LB ZERO responsible for their quitting mentality and inability to show up in shape.

LB's stuff with the press was unprofessional, almost as much so as guys quitting and not playing hard, but not quite. I think he was just miffed on how to get through to these guys. Clearly the regular coaching methods werent working.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
3/31/2006  3:41 PM
I do question AI's desire to really win though. He doesn't share the ball nearly enough, he doesn't look to pass nearly enough. He rather go down shooting to promote ball movement.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
joec32033
Posts: 30631
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
3/31/2006  3:47 PM
Coach----W L % PSW PSL PS%


Riley- 1,147 582 .663 155 100 .608

Jax - 870 351 .713 175 69 .717

Frat - 653 522 .556 20 38 .345

Pops - 511 249 .672 69 41 .627

Karl - 780 539 .591 60 71 .458

Sloan- 977 654 .599 78 80 .494

Flip - 468 340 .579 17 30 .362


http://www.nba.com/coaches/

Riles (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Scott), Sloan (Stockton and Malone), Karl (Kemp and Payton), Pops (Duncan and Robinson), and Jax (Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe) all had at least 2 dominant players on their teams for extended periods of time.

[

[Edited by - joec32033 on 03-31-2006 3:55 PM]
~You can't run from who you are.~
joec32033
Posts: 30631
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
3/31/2006  3:55 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

I do question AI's desire to really win though. He doesn't share the ball nearly enough, he doesn't look to pass nearly enough. He rather go down shooting to promote ball movement.


I think that is really changing a little now with competent secondary players (Webber, Iggy, Korver)
~You can't run from who you are.~
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
3/31/2006  4:09 PM
Posted by joec32033:

Coach----W L % PSW PSL PS%


Riley- 1,147 582 .663 155 100 .608

Jax - 870 351 .713 175 69 .717

Frat - 653 522 .556 20 38 .345

Pops - 511 249 .672 69 41 .627

Karl - 780 539 .591 60 71 .458

Sloan- 977 654 .599 78 80 .494

Flip - 468 340 .579 17 30 .362


http://www.nba.com/coaches/

Riles (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Scott), Sloan (Stockton and Malone), Karl (Kemp and Payton), Pops (Duncan and Robinson), and Jax (Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe) all had at least 2 dominant players on their teams for extended periods of time.

[

[Edited by - joec32033 on 03-31-2006 3:55 PM]

Riley gained status a legendary coach by his work in NY and worker work in Miami (pre Shaq and Wade). Sloan maybe proven to be just a product of two HOF, Karl has had success in other spots. I put Brown behind Riley and Nelson. Not bad company, though I also put him behind Wilkins who fail here too. As far as I am concern Phil Jackson has just started to learn to coach this season, though 1994, he did a nice job with the Bulls but that team still had a lot of holdovers. Riley to me is just on another level of coaching. His ability to adapt and get more out of any team is special.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
3/31/2006  4:12 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Pharzeone:

I do question AI's desire to really win though. He doesn't share the ball nearly enough, he doesn't look to pass nearly enough. He rather go down shooting to promote ball movement.


I think that is really changing a little now with competent secondary players (Webber, Iggy, Korver)

Really because it isn't translating at all in the games. C-Webb still complains, Iggy certainly is touching the ball enough. Krover seems to only get the ball when all options fail (though since he is so one dimensional maybe that's all he should get).
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
joec32033
Posts: 30631
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
3/31/2006  4:28 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by joec32033:

Coach----W L % PSW PSL PS%


Riley- 1,147 582 .663 155 100 .608

Jax - 870 351 .713 175 69 .717

Frat - 653 522 .556 20 38 .345

Pops - 511 249 .672 69 41 .627

Karl - 780 539 .591 60 71 .458

Sloan- 977 654 .599 78 80 .494

Flip - 468 340 .579 17 30 .362


http://www.nba.com/coaches/

Riles (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Scott), Sloan (Stockton and Malone), Karl (Kemp and Payton), Pops (Duncan and Robinson), and Jax (Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe) all had at least 2 dominant players on their teams for extended periods of time.

[

[Edited by - joec32033 on 03-31-2006 3:55 PM]

Riley gained status a legendary coach by his work in NY and worker work in Miami (pre Shaq and Wade). Sloan maybe proven to be just a product of two HOF, Karl has had success in other spots. I put Brown behind Riley and Nelson. Not bad company, though I also put him behind Wilkins who fail here too. As far as I am concern Phil Jackson has just started to learn to coach this season, though 1994, he did a nice job with the Bulls but that team still had a lot of holdovers. Riley to me is just on another level of coaching. His ability to adapt and get more out of any team is special.

Riley(The best IMO by far), Fratello and Pops are the three best coaches I have ever seen. I really don't respect Phil too much because he uses a system he didn't even develop (Tex Winter did) and his system needs two dominant players to be effective.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 03-31-2006 4:29 PM]
~You can't run from who you are.~
joec32033
Posts: 30631
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
3/31/2006  4:30 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by Pharzeone:

I do question AI's desire to really win though. He doesn't share the ball nearly enough, he doesn't look to pass nearly enough. He rather go down shooting to promote ball movement.


I think that is really changing a little now with competent secondary players (Webber, Iggy, Korver)

Really because it isn't translating at all in the games. C-Webb still complains, Iggy certainly is touching the ball enough. Krover seems to only get the ball when all options fail (though since he is so one dimensional maybe that's all he should get).

A fish swims, the wind blows, C-Webb complains, that's just what he does, IMO. C-Webb was never able to "carry" a team, he is like the Marbury of forwards to me. He has/had all the talent in the world and it's the mental stuff that makes him ultimately a great complimentary player but not a star.
~You can't run from who you are.~
rvhoss
Posts: 24943
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/2/2004
Member: #777
Switzerland
3/31/2006  4:40 PM
WHOA!!! Fish, are you finally admitting we are rebuilding?
Posted by fishmike:

find someone who's better. Pat Riley and Phil Jackson maybe? Who else? And how many of them were in rebuilding situations? Larry's in one now.

all kool aid all the time.
rvhoss
Posts: 24943
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/2/2004
Member: #777
Switzerland
3/31/2006  4:45 PM
good stuff, I think everyone is realizing that we aren't taking the players and zeke and for that matter dolan out of the blame game, but we are just wondering why LB escapes unscathed.

The replies have certainly shown a pure resistance to even say LB is partially to blame by some posters.

And it's just strange that you can't seem to even say it's 50% the coach.

You bring up Bill parcell's and say he was able to do it, that was in the 80's and 90's. Have you seen the Cowboys record both BEFORE he brought in his players and AFTER he brought in his players. Same result...so, please don't bring in that clown from the cavs. Marbs is better.

Read the title of this post...all holfresh is really saying is, that type of coaching just won't work anymore, especially in NYC.

Ask Wilkens...who btw, is far more accomplished than brown.

also, I hate the And1 mixtape and I know about ball. I still blame Brown atleast 50%.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-31-2006 10:47 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
OldFan
Posts: 21456
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2003
Member: #446
3/31/2006  7:07 PM
Posted by Rich:

I question whether Larry has the patience, at his age, to teach the kind of players that Isiah has acquired.

I think Larry would do fine with a heady group of talented veterans.


Rich I agree that LB probably doesn't have the patience for these players. But would anybody?
bigbeast
Posts: 22333
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 12/21/2005
Member: #1060
3/31/2006  8:07 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

good stuff, I think everyone is realizing that we aren't taking the players and zeke and for that matter dolan out of the blame game, but we are just wondering why LB escapes unscathed.

The replies have certainly shown a pure resistance to even say LB is partially to blame by some posters.

And it's just strange that you can't seem to even say it's 50% the coach.

You bring up Bill parcell's and say he was able to do it, that was in the 80's and 90's. Have you seen the Cowboys record both BEFORE he brought in his players and AFTER he brought in his players. Same result...so, please don't bring in that clown from the cavs. Marbs is better.

Read the title of this post...all holfresh is really saying is, that type of coaching just won't work anymore, especially in NYC.

Ask Wilkens...who btw, is far more accomplished than brown.

also, I hate the And1 mixtape and I know about ball. I still blame Brown atleast 50%.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-31-2006 10:47 PM]

Dead on! It's amazing how the precieved Brown bashers can admit that the players share the blame with Brown. But these Brown-backers and there teflon-like support refuse to unstrap Browns bullet-proof vest and take at least one obvious, and well deserved shot.



[Edited by - bigbeast on 03-31-2006 8:12 PM]
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Bobby
Posts: 22094
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/18/2003
Member: #408
USA
3/31/2006  8:35 PM
your title should read, larry is the only coach in the nba to receive a free pass without any regard to accountability......this could only happen in new york, this is larry lame's new york

so next year i dont want to hear any excuses about player injuries, players iq, too slow, too fat....nada, not a damn thing. next year brown tries the same bs brown gets roasted
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
joec32033
Posts: 30631
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
3/31/2006  8:38 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by rvhoss:

good stuff, I think everyone is realizing that we aren't taking the players and zeke and for that matter dolan out of the blame game, but we are just wondering why LB escapes unscathed.

The replies have certainly shown a pure resistance to even say LB is partially to blame by some posters.

And it's just strange that you can't seem to even say it's 50% the coach.

You bring up Bill parcell's and say he was able to do it, that was in the 80's and 90's. Have you seen the Cowboys record both BEFORE he brought in his players and AFTER he brought in his players. Same result...so, please don't bring in that clown from the cavs. Marbs is better.

Read the title of this post...all holfresh is really saying is, that type of coaching just won't work anymore, especially in NYC.

Ask Wilkens...who btw, is far more accomplished than brown.

also, I hate the And1 mixtape and I know about ball. I still blame Brown atleast 50%.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-31-2006 10:47 PM]

Dead on! It's amazing how the precieved Brown bashers can admit that the players share the blame with Brown. But these Brown-backers and there teflon-like support refuse to unstrap Browns bullet-proof vest and take at least one obvious, and well deserved shot.



[Edited by - bigbeast on 03-31-2006 8:12 PM]

What's amazing is how SOME(notice a LIMITED generalization, not a sweeping one) Brown bashers can't seem to hold any accountability for the players...I mean, they are only players, right...it's not like they have more of an impact on the outcome of a game then the coach, I mean come on....
~You can't run from who you are.~
tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
3/31/2006  8:41 PM
Posted by fishmike:

quit making excuses. These guys dont play hard. They show up out of shape. The dont work hard on defense. They dont share the ball. They dont listen to the coach.

Get over the berating crap. Its so lame Holfresh... it really is. Brown's treatment of his players? Every team? Please... Funny how Iverson STILL calls him the best coach ever. Funny how Billups called Marbury and told him if he listened Brown would make him a better player.

Can you not acknowledge that ALL of this, 100% of it stems from the player's inability to do the fundamental things the coach asks from them? If these guys show up in shape, and play and practice hard on DEFENSE does Larry Brown make these comments? So the players suck, dont play hard, dont try and the coach is the problem. Like he said, your the best guard in the league and we are 18-50... yea its the coach.

Holfresh what is it? Do you hate Brown? What is it about him or this team that makes you so dead set on protecting this group of losers and slackers that Isiah has assembled? I want to know, because the stuff your talking about is nitpicking BS and if you think this is why we are losing 60 games than you havent been watching.
Who didnt motivate Francis in Orl? What was Marbury's problem with D'Antoni, or in NJ when he was "all alone?" Who's to blame for Curry being out of shape every year he's been in the league except his contract year? Who fault is it Mo Taylor gain weight every year? Who didnt motivate James to show up in camp fit enough to perform simple calisthenics? Its the same story for all these guys. Everywhere they go same story.

Somehow it must be LB... 6 degrees of Larry Brown.


fish, the paragraph I bolded is the very problem we have over there on realgm, most of the kids there, blame brown, there is a mountain of evidence vs the players, yet it is all browns fault, it is infectuous.....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
3/31/2006  8:55 PM
Posted by joec32033:

Coach----W L % PSW PSL PS%


Riley- 1,147 582 .663 155 100 .608

Jax - 870 351 .713 175 69 .717

Frat - 653 522 .556 20 38 .345

Pops - 511 249 .672 69 41 .627

Karl - 780 539 .591 60 71 .458

Sloan- 977 654 .599 78 80 .494

Flip - 468 340 .579 17 30 .362


http://www.nba.com/coaches/

Riles (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Scott), Sloan (Stockton and Malone), Karl (Kemp and Payton), Pops (Duncan and Robinson), and Jax (Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe) all had at least 2 dominant players on their teams for extended periods of time.

[

[Edited by - joec32033 on 03-31-2006 3:55 PM]


frat, karl, sloan and flip are good coaches but have no rings. Brown has a ring on both levels, college and the pros.. I agree with your post tho, most of those guys were coaching HOF players, larry has done more with little...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
bigbeast
Posts: 22333
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 12/21/2005
Member: #1060
3/31/2006  8:57 PM
Do you guys Read or just skim through it? I Clearly Stated That The Players Share the Blame! I don't know how many other ways I have to say that for you guys to understand. Trust, If I could speak spanish, I'd write it that way as well.

My only point is, Brown has to take alot of the blame aswell.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
joec32033
Posts: 30631
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
3/31/2006  9:05 PM
^And I for one am not saying Brown is totally blameless and I can't think of one pro-Brown guy who said he is totally blameless...My response was to the fact that you seem to think everyone pro-Brown is only blaming the players, which is way off base.
~You can't run from who you are.~
Page 3 of 13 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4  5 Next ›Last »
« Reply To Topic
Coaching in this league may just have passed Larry bye, bye..
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy