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Kidd & Marbury - A study in the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality
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TMS
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3/16/2006  8:40 PM
rv... i'm not here saying this is the "end of the world" for the Knicks, or that Marbury's garbage, or even trying to beat the old argument that Kidd is better than Marbury into the ground... i'm talking about a certain mindset that clearly separates these 2, & it's that difference in mindset that i feel is at the core of the problem w/Marbury & why he's not a fit with the system LB's trying to run here...

a guy like Kidd plays the game w/no concern about his stats... he just goes out & tries to help his team win... if that involves him scoring no points while playing good defense & orchestrating the offense efectively, he does it, & he does it effectively... he makes his teammates better & those types of intangibles don't show in the statline... that's the type of player LB is looking for...

when was the last time you saw Marbury help his team win when he wasn't putting up stats? do you consider him a leader who inspires his teammates to play better? i don't... i think Marbury's game is all about getting his own, & even then it doesn't translate to making the team better necessarily... the example i used was to illustrate that point... there are no intangibles to speak of when you talk about Marbury, & because of this he's not a good fit for what LB is looking for in his PG.

now for those who want to criticize me for making an observation & commentary on this point, feel free to post your own commentary on the topic... explain to me why i'm wrong & we can have a discussion... to pick at the semantics of my use of the word "study" is pretty pathetic, & really serves no purpose.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-16-2006 8:57 PM]
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eViL
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3/16/2006  8:51 PM
Posted by TMS:

rv... i'm not here saying this is the "end of the world" for the Knicks, or that Marbury's garbage, or even trying to beat the old argument that Kidd is better than Marbury into the ground... i'm talking about a certain mindset that clearly separates these 2, & it's that difference in mindset that i feel is at the core of the problem w/Marbury & why he's not a fit with the system LB's trying to run here...

a guy like Kidd plays the game w/no concern about his stats... he just goes out & tries to help his team win... if that involves him scoring no points while playing good defense & orchestrating the offense efectively, he does it, & he does it effectively... he makes his teammates better & those types of intangibles don't show in the statline... that's the type of player LB is looking for...

when was the last time you saw Marbury help his team win when he wasn't scoring? do you consider him a leader who inspires his teammates to play better? i don't... i think Marbury's game is all about getting his own, & even then it doesn't translate to making the team better necessarily... the example i used was to illustrate that point... there are no intangibles to speak of when you talk about Marbury, & because of this he's not a good fit for what LB is looking for in his PG.

now for those who want to criticize me for making an observation & commentary on this point, feel free to post your own commentary on the topic... explain to me why i'm wrong & we can have a discussion... to pick at the semantics of my use of the word "study" is pretty pathetic, & really serves no purpose.

Let it go TMS. It's obvious that certain posters on this board can only understand extremes. (i.e. If you take Brown's side of the argument then you also must blame Marbury for everything. - or - If you think the Knicks have some major problems to deal with then you haven't acknowlegdged any of the potential positives or reasons to hope. etc.) I understand where you are coming from and I realize that you are hoping for the best for the Knicks. Trust me, all of us, as fans, want to see the team get better. Part of that means we want to see Marbury get better. But please don't criticize Marbury too harshly. He's sensitive and so are his fans.
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TMS
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3/16/2006  9:00 PM
believe me, there's nothing i'd like more than for Marbury to finally get it & change his game to become the PG LB wants him to be... but he's too set in his ways & i honestly don't think he even knows himself what LB wants out of him... that's why i just don't see it ever working out w/him
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Bonn1997
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3/16/2006  9:16 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bonn1997:

What player does compare favorably against Kidd?

Parker, Billups, Nash. But speedy guards give him alot of trouble, he has the advantage in the post though.

Those players are nothing compared to Kidd in his prime
martin
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3/16/2006  9:21 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bonn1997:

What player does compare favorably against Kidd?

Parker, Billups, Nash. But speedy guards give him alot of trouble, he has the advantage in the post though.

Those players are nothing compared to Kidd in his prime

WOW, that's saying a lot. 2 of those guards won NBA titles and the other may walk off with his second MVP this year.
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Bonn1997
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3/16/2006  10:17 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bonn1997:

What player does compare favorably against Kidd?

Parker, Billups, Nash. But speedy guards give him alot of trouble, he has the advantage in the post though.

Those players are nothing compared to Kidd in his prime

WOW, that's saying a lot. 2 of those guards won NBA titles and the other may walk off with his second MVP this year.
A lot of that has to do with their teammates. Look at what the players actually do. Nash is great on offense but he doesn't rebound or play defense like Kidd did. Parker is a good player but on an ordinary team with no Duncan no one would think of him as even a top 5 PG. Kidd's best teammate was Kenyon Martin or Richard Jefferson or VC. Those players aren't close to as good as on both ends of the court as Tim Duncan, Shawn Marion, or Amare Stoudemire.



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03-16-2006 10:18 PM]
NotFrye
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3/16/2006  10:44 PM
HOLD UP. Have you ever seen these two in one room? at the same time?
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

Translation: This is the way it is b/c I think so. I have no data to back up my opinion. If you don't agree you're dumb.
Posted by TMS:

sorry tom... i don't have the time in the day to go into your extensive stat studies & comparisons... i relate info the way i see how these guys play on the court... anyone who doesn't know what i'm talking about when i refer to a "winning" & "losing mentality" may have deeper issues than i can help them with on this forum... or maybe they're just morons who shouldn't be reading these forums to begin with... take your pick... i don't think there's a need for me to elaborate any much further on the point i was trying to make, but if you need further explanation of my point, let me know & maybe we can set something up for you.



looks like there's more of you than i thought.
Nalod
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3/16/2006  10:59 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bonn1997:

What player does compare favorably against Kidd?

Parker, Billups, Nash. But speedy guards give him alot of trouble, he has the advantage in the post though.

Those players are nothing compared to Kidd in his prime

WOW, that's saying a lot. 2 of those guards won NBA titles and the other may walk off with his second MVP this year.
A lot of that has to do with their teammates. Look at what the players actually do. Nash is great on offense but he doesn't rebound or play defense like Kidd did. Parker is a good player but on an ordinary team with no Duncan no one would think of him as even a top 5 PG. Kidd's best teammate was Kenyon Martin or Richard Jefferson or VC. Those players aren't close to as good as on both ends of the court as Tim Duncan, Shawn Marion, or Amare Stoudemire.



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03-16-2006 10:18 PM]


Is is the players you play with, or does the PG make those players better?
Nash makes those two better. And give parker his due.
nykshaknbake
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3/17/2006  12:49 AM
Uhh...dude read the thread title
Posted by martin:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

I think you just proved my point. Not saying that you are right or wrong, but to those that actually read studies and know what they entail, this is beyond a joke. Just say I hate Marbury and love Jason Kidd. The former is a loser and the latter a winner. Trying to give credibility to your statment by saying it's a study is dumb.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

Translation: This is the way it is b/c I think so. I have no data to back up my opinion. If you don't agree you're dumb.
Posted by TMS:

sorry tom... i don't have the time in the day to go into your extensive stat studies & comparisons... i relate info the way i see how these guys play on the court... anyone who doesn't know what i'm talking about when i refer to a "winning" & "losing mentality" may have deeper issues than i can help them with on this forum... or maybe they're just morons who shouldn't be reading these forums to begin with... take your pick... i don't think there's a need for me to elaborate any much further on the point i was trying to make, but if you need further explanation of my point, let me know & maybe we can set something up for you.



looks like there's more of you than i thought.

Where are you going with this? I don't even get your arguement. TMS made a observation after watching something and shared it with us. What does it have to do with a "study"? And why does it automatically become a hate/love thing? That's some pretty wacky stretching there.
TMS
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3/17/2006  9:03 AM
nykshaknbake, do you even HAVE a point, or are you just trying to argue the use of the word "study" in the title of my post? if you have something to say on the topic being discussed, let's hear it... let's hear how you think i'm wrong... don't come at me w/this crap about what constitutes a "study" & what doesn't just so you can hear yourself talk & feel validated somehow... it's a waste of everyone's time.
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3/17/2006  9:27 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bonn1997:

What player does compare favorably against Kidd?

Parker, Billups, Nash. But speedy guards give him alot of trouble, he has the advantage in the post though.

Those players are nothing compared to Kidd in his prime

WOW, that's saying a lot. 2 of those guards won NBA titles and the other may walk off with his second MVP this year.
A lot of that has to do with their teammates. Look at what the players actually do. Nash is great on offense but he doesn't rebound or play defense like Kidd did. Parker is a good player but on an ordinary team with no Duncan no one would think of him as even a top 5 PG. Kidd's best teammate was Kenyon Martin or Richard Jefferson or VC. Those players aren't close to as good as on both ends of the court as Tim Duncan, Shawn Marion, or Amare Stoudemire.



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03-16-2006 10:18 PM]


Kidd can't shoot to save his life. Nash & Billups are major threats from outside.

And who exactly is Nash playing with this season? Marion is a comparable talent to VC & RJ- yes, he might be better, but they are different.

KT is out. Amare is out. Boris Diah averaged 4 pts last year on the hawks. TT hasn't played all season and is shooting lights out. Raja Bell?

Nash has this season and last established, in my mind at least, that he is one of the all time best PGs to play the game.
nykshaknbake
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3/17/2006  10:13 AM
I'll come at you with whatever I please. I don't need to hear myself talk or feel validated. But if you're projecting, I'm willing to help you through your problems.

I'm tired of all these anti-Marbury threads. This thread you started is jsut another, 'I hate Marbury', but w/o anything behind it. He's been the best Knick, bar none by far this season. Not saying he's the best PG in the league and defeintly not the brightest public figure but he's done more good for the Knicks in this sorry season than any of the other players or our esteemed caoch.
Posted by TMS:

nykshaknbake, do you even HAVE a point, or are you just trying to argue the use of the word "study" in the title of my post? if you have something to say on the topic being discussed, let's hear it... let's hear how you think i'm wrong... don't come at me w/this crap about what constitutes a "study" & what doesn't just so you can hear yourself talk & feel validated somehow... it's a waste of everyone's time.
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3/17/2006  10:21 AM
Posted by rvhoss:


to say that kidd is better when, after he's done with his career, he'll still be below barkley and others.



[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-17-2006 01:15 AM]

hall of famers; and Kidd will be there as well.

as for the self proclaimed best...
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Nalod
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3/17/2006  10:26 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by rvhoss:


to say that kidd is better when, after he's done with his career, he'll still be below barkley and others.



[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-17-2006 01:15 AM]

hall of famers; and Kidd will be there as well.

as for the self proclaimed best...

Statbury will play 20 more years and catch up to Larry. Then, whose got the cred?
McK1
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3/17/2006  10:27 AM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by rvhoss:


to say that kidd is better when, after he's done with his career, he'll still be below barkley and others.



[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-17-2006 01:15 AM]

hall of famers; and Kidd will be there as well.

as for the self proclaimed best...

Statbury will play 20 more years and catch up to Larry. Then, whose got the cred?

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TMS
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3/17/2006  10:38 AM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

I'll come at you with whatever I please. I don't need to hear myself talk or feel validated. But if you're projecting, I'm willing to help you through your problems.

I'm tired of all these anti-Marbury threads. This thread you started is jsut another, 'I hate Marbury', but w/o anything behind it. He's been the best Knick, bar none by far this season. Not saying he's the best PG in the league and defeintly not the brightest public figure but he's done more good for the Knicks in this sorry season than any of the other players or our esteemed caoch.
Posted by TMS:

nykshaknbake, do you even HAVE a point, or are you just trying to argue the use of the word "study" in the title of my post? if you have something to say on the topic being discussed, let's hear it... let's hear how you think i'm wrong... don't come at me w/this crap about what constitutes a "study" & what doesn't just so you can hear yourself talk & feel validated somehow... it's a waste of everyone's time.


if you don't want to discuss Marbury, don't click on the thread... simple... i didn't write this thread to get your commentary on my use of the word "study".

& i never once said i thought Marbury was a bad player, but you obviously choose to assume things... on this board, you're up LB's arse, or up Marbury's w/some of you... you can't even make a general observation without being classified in 1 category or another... it's ridiculous.

i made this thread to illustrate a simple point... (oops, did i use the word "illustrate" correctly here Mr. English professor??? please let me know for future reference)... i don't think Marbury's got a winning mentality... do you agree or disagree? stop side stepping w/this crap about my use of a specific word or how you think Marbury's been the best player this year... that wasn't the point we were discussing to begin with...
Originally posted by nykshaknbake:

Not saying that you are right or wrong, but to those that actually read studies and know what they entail, this is beyond a joke.

a post like this is completely useless to the topic of the thread... just tell me whether you think i'm right or wrong & elaborate with your reasons... stop avoiding the topic because you want to prove that you know more about what a "study" truly entails... it's not impressive.
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Nalod
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3/17/2006  10:53 AM


The argument is really about Statburys Defense, but the team itself.

Plenty of teams have defensive liabilities and compensate. But we are not.

The basis of the "war of words" is how the team plays. Not JUST Statbury!
nykshaknbake
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3/17/2006  10:57 AM
That's alot of hostility, there bud. Forget your meds? If not and you take that much offense to correction, I think you may need to talk to your doc about increasing the doses.

So, I'm not allowed to click on a thread and say I think it's invalid or disagree. SOrry man, I don't think so. And I never said you stated Marbury was a bad player. But you certainly fit one of the two types of posters you complain about. I didn't assume anything.

I think he does have a winning mentality. He does distribute the ball alot in the games I've watched. He doesn't take an excessive number of shots. He's changed his game significantly for the sake of the team. He's just not good enough to carry a team on his shoulders. He doesn't have the creativity of Nash or Kidd.

You used illustrate correctly.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

I'll come at you with whatever I please. I don't need to hear myself talk or feel validated. But if you're projecting, I'm willing to help you through your problems.

I'm tired of all these anti-Marbury threads. This thread you started is jsut another, 'I hate Marbury', but w/o anything behind it. He's been the best Knick, bar none by far this season. Not saying he's the best PG in the league and defeintly not the brightest public figure but he's done more good for the Knicks in this sorry season than any of the other players or our esteemed caoch.
Posted by TMS:

nykshaknbake, do you even HAVE a point, or are you just trying to argue the use of the word "study" in the title of my post? if you have something to say on the topic being discussed, let's hear it... let's hear how you think i'm wrong... don't come at me w/this crap about what constitutes a "study" & what doesn't just so you can hear yourself talk & feel validated somehow... it's a waste of everyone's time.


if you don't want to discuss Marbury, don't click on the thread... simple... i didn't write this thread to get your commentary on my use of the word "study".

& i never once said i thought Marbury was a bad player, but you obviously choose to assume things... on this board, you're up LB's arse, or up Marbury's w/some of you... you can't even make a general observation without being classified in 1 category or another... it's ridiculous.

i made this thread to illustrate a simple point... (oops, did i use the word "illustrate" correctly here Mr. English professor??? please let me know for future reference)... i don't think Marbury's got a winning mentality... do you agree or disagree? stop side stepping w/this crap about my use of a specific word or how you think Marbury's been the best player this year... that wasn't the point we were discussing to begin with...
Originally posted by nykshaknbake:

Not saying that you are right or wrong, but to those that actually read studies and know what they entail, this is beyond a joke.

a post like this is completely useless to the topic of the thread... just tell me whether you think i'm right or wrong & elaborate with your reasons... stop avoiding the topic because you want to prove that you know more about what a "study" truly entails... it's not impressive.



[Edited by - nykshaknbake on 03-17-2006 10:58 AM]
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3/17/2006  11:03 AM
Posted by ultknicks524:

Kidd also has Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson and Nenad Krstic who scored 26, 22 and 20 points respectively. Marbury doesnt have anyone in the caliber of Carter, Jefferson and heck even a big man like Krstic.


Yawn. Same ol' tired argument.

Jason Kidd is a winner. Don't ever miss the moral of the story.
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
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3/17/2006  11:05 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

has kidd won a championship while I was away?


No, but he re-vived New Jersey. He also was the unsung MVP that year.

So, don't go there. Please.
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
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Kidd & Marbury - A study in the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality
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