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Time for all Isiah supporters to jump off ship?
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eViL
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2/26/2006  4:32 PM
Holefrosh totally stole Bonn's thunder...

Hey Bonn, it's cool that you're able to concede an argument rather than relentlessly and hopelessly holding on. Unlike you, I was a quiet supporter, but a supporter none-the-less. Anyone who denies the problems this team is faced with is fooling themselves. A little luck here or there wouldn't have hurt. Had we snagged Rasheed we might be having a different conversation (damn you Danny Ainge). The same can be said for Layden's tenure though. Had McDyess not relapsed, maybe the trio of a still athletic Dice, Spree and Houston would have been made serious noise. And what about Tapscott? I mean, if things would have gone right for him, maybe Frederick Weis would have... um, er... uh, nevermind.

The bottom line: every GM is relying on a little bit of luck to go their way. The Knicks? Well, let's say we haven't had any luck since we traded some guy named Ewing. Maybe this is a bit dramatic, but I think we have a curse on our hands...

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bigbeast
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2/26/2006  4:33 PM
If i remember correctly, most of you guys on this board were readily looking forward to this season becuase you thought with the TALENT here, we could seriously compete for a playoff spot. Now, that the talent hasnt lived up to our billing, you want to blame Isiah. NO ONE CAN CONVINVCE ME THAT THIS IS THE WORSE ROSTER IN THE NBA!

The biggest indictment of Brown wan when PAT RILEY, (who's resume is three times better than Browns) said the cupboard is full.

Has Isiah made a bunch of mistakes, absolutely. But so does other well respected GMS. Rod Thorn signed Marc Jackson and Jeff McGinnis. Think he regrets that? How about Cleveland signing Marshall and Damon Jones to max deals?

In one breath, people kill Brown for switching up the line ups too often which doesn't promote cohesiveness. Then in another breath you want us to fire another GM after 2 yrs on the job. WE NEED STABILITY. On the bench, on the court and upstairs. Let Isiah see his plan all the way through. Lets see what he puts on the court in October. I said in another thread that he's rebuilding in a very unusual way. Lets see the end result before we get him out of here.

[Edited by - bigbeast on 02-26-2006 4:35 PM]
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BasketballJones
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2/26/2006  4:36 PM
Posted by bigbeast:

If i remember correctly, most of you guys on this board were readily looking forward to this season becuase you thought with the TALENT here, we could seriously compete for a playoff spot. Now, that the talent hasnt lived up to our billing, you want to blame Isiah. NO ONE CAN CONVINVCE ME THAT THIS IS THE WORSE ROSTER IN THE NBA!

The biggest indictment of Brown wan when PAT RILEY, (who's resume is three times better than Browns) said the cupboard is full.

Has Isiah made a bunch of mistakes, absolutely. But so does other well respected GMS. Rod Thorn signed Marc Jackson and Jeff McGinnis. Think he regrets that? How about Cleveland signing Marshall and Damon Jones to max deals?

In one breath, people kill Brown for switching up the line ups too often which doesn't promote cohesiveness. Then in another breath you want us to fire another GM after 2 yrs on the job. WE NEED STABILITY. On the bench, on the court and upstairs. Let Isiah see his plan all the way through. Lets see what he puts on the court in October. I said in another thread that he's rebuilding in a very unusual way. Lets see the end result before we get him out of here.

[Edited by - bigbeast on 02-26-2006 4:35 PM]

What is Isiah's plan? Do you know? Becuase I sure don't.
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bigbeast
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2/26/2006  4:42 PM
I made a thread about this yesterday. In short, acquiring tradeable assets to move for a big player capable of possible getting us over the top.

Assets: Frye, Lee, Nate, Rose (expiring), Taylor (expiring) @ draft picks.

I'm saying Isiah doesn't have a hand in this, but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD you guys need to take that teflon jacket off Brown. The defensive genious is doing a horrible job.

I don't care if this team was full of CBA players, Brown is supposed to be good enough toe turn them around
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WOODMANnYk
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2/26/2006  4:47 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by bigbeast:

If i remember correctly, most of you guys on this board were readily looking forward to this season becuase you thought with the TALENT here,

TAlent isn't everything. It's about heart, fundamentals, play the right way


The biggest indictment of Brown wan when PAT RILEY, (who's resume is three times better than Browns) said the cupboard is full.

Riley from the knicks standpoint, had one of the 50 greatest players to work around with(Ewing) With the lakers, he had 3 hall of famers(magic/Kareem/worthy.

Has Isiah made a bunch of mistakes, absolutely. But so does other well respected GMS. Rod Thorn signed Marc Jackson and Jeff McGinnis. Think he regrets that?

NJ 's been in the finals twice over the last 5 yrs.. Thorn could afford to make a mistake here and there.. It still won't overshadow the aquistion of kidd..

[Edited by - bigbeast on 02-26-2006 4:35 PM]

What is Isiah's plan? Do you know? Becuase I sure don't.
he doesn't know himself... that's the problem



[Edited by - woodmannyk on 02-26-2006 4:48 PM]
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BasketballJones
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2/26/2006  4:47 PM
Posted by bigbeast:

I made a thread about this yesterday. In short, acquiring tradeable assets to move for a big player capable of possible getting us over the top.

Assets: Frye, Lee, Nate, Rose (expiring), Taylor (expiring) @ draft picks.

I'm saying Isiah doesn't have a hand in this, but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD you guys need to take that teflon jacket off Brown. The defensive genious is doing a horrible job.

I don't care if this team was full of CBA players, Brown is supposed to be good enough toe turn them around

I agree, Brown and the players share the blame. Isiah signed Brown. Isiah signed the players, so I don't see how he escapes any responsibility for this mess. Does he deserve all the blame, or even most of it? No, but he sure deserves part of it.

I've said all along that Dolan should bear the most responsibility. My opinion is he's built a dysfunctional team.
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martin
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2/26/2006  4:48 PM
Posted by bigbeast:

I'm saying Isiah doesn't have a hand in this, but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD you guys need to take that teflon jacket off Brown. The defensive genious is doing a horrible job.

I don't care if this team was full of CBA players, Brown is supposed to be good enough toe turn them around

no one is saying that Brown gets a free pass, but we are all watching the same games. Who on the premiter stays in front of their man? Q sometimes can jam up a player but Marb, Nate and JC have been sivs. I don't think Brown's instructions were to let your man go by. Fight over pick: I know that has been stressed over and over... can the players follow instrunction?

Know Your Personal. That's Brown's mantra, right? And yet 3point shooter after 3point shooter is open all the time. How come? I am SURE Brown has stressed that.

Block out and get the defensive rebound. Are the Bigs doing that?
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eViL
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2/26/2006  4:50 PM
Posted by bigbeast:

If i remember correctly, most of you guys on this board were readily looking forward to this season becuase you thought with the TALENT here, we could seriously compete for a playoff spot. Now, that the talent hasnt lived up to our billing, you want to blame. NO ONE CAN CONVINVCE ME THAT THIS IS THE WORSE ROSTER IN THE NBA!

Yeah, a lot of people were really looking forward to the season. In some respects, the talent has been upgraded. BUT:

1) While gushing about the new "talent", a lot of folks were careful to qualify their statements by saying the upside was there, but not without potential for disaster. I don't recall many folks boldly asserting that we were a lock for 50 plus games.

2) Focusing strictly on collecting individual talent is what got us in this mess to begin with. I would think that with all the Knicks games everyone watches that we'd all be very well versed in how important it is to play TEAM basketball. Afterall, we watch many TEAMS with less individual talent smack our gutless team around on a regular basis.

3) How can people argue with this record? We have 40 losses and it's not even March yet. The team is composed of spineless, selfish, overpaid underachievers who are adverse to making the sacrifices necessary to play winning team basketball. I never thought it was possible, but this team makes me long for the days of Shandon Anderson, Eisley, Ward, Spree, KT and Houston. That team had heart. That team had pride. I am convinced today's team would lose 100 straight games to that old Layden team.
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Bonn1997
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2/26/2006  4:55 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by bigbeast:

I'm saying Isiah doesn't have a hand in this, but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD you guys need to take that teflon jacket off Brown. The defensive genious is doing a horrible job.

I don't care if this team was full of CBA players, Brown is supposed to be good enough toe turn them around

no one is saying that Brown gets a free pass, but we are all watching the same games. Who on the premiter stays in front of their man? Q sometimes can jam up a player but Marb, Nate and JC have been sivs. I don't think Brown's instructions were to let your man go by. Fight over pick: I know that has been stressed over and over... can the players follow instrunction?

Know Your Personal. That's Brown's mantra, right? And yet 3point shooter after 3point shooter is open all the time. How come? I am SURE Brown has stressed that.

Block out and get the defensive rebound. Are the Bigs doing that?
See my complaints with Brown have nothing to do with the team's record or with the strengths and limitations of each of our players. It's solely playing time. If we're building for the future, I have disappointment with each of the following player's playing time:

Frye (not high enough until post-all-star-break)
Lee (not even remotely high or consistent enough)
Nate (not consistent enough)
Jackie Butler (not high or consistent enough)
Jerome James (any minutes are too many)
Malik (Way too high)
Q Woods (not consistent enough)
J Crawford (33 mpg is far too many for such a wuss).

That's the majority of the roster! The bold ones are the more serious ones.

WOODMANnYk
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2/26/2006  4:57 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by bigbeast:

I made a thread about this yesterday. In short, acquiring tradeable assets to move for a big player capable of possible getting us over the top.

Assets: Frye, Lee, Nate, Rose (expiring), Taylor (expiring) @ draft picks.

I'm saying Isiah doesn't have a hand in this, but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD you guys need to take that teflon jacket off Brown. The defensive genious is doing a horrible job.

I don't care if this team was full of CBA players, Brown is supposed to be good enough toe turn them around

I agree, Brown and the players share the blame. Isiah signed Brown. Isiah signed the players, so I don't see how he escapes any responsibility for this mess. Does he deserve all the blame, or even most of it? No, but he sure deserves part of it.

I've said all along that Dolan should bear the most responsibility. My opinion is he's built a dysfunctional team.

brown has won a championship as coach in the NBA and NCAA.. isaih hasn't done didly squat as g.m or pres.. he's been fired 2 different times.. what does that tell you ??
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2/26/2006  5:01 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
A big payroll cut, as well as continued success of the Rangers should help keep total losses down a bit.
I know nothing about hockey. Did the Rangers do a "real" rebuild? Are they owned by Cablevision too? If yes to both, that would give me a litle hope.

The answer to both is yes, but it is a little different. The Rangers were the same as the Knicks. (ie. high payroll, crap record) At the trade deadline a few years ago, they first traded for the best player in the game, and then they shed all their other high-priced garbage for picks, etc. and rebuilt. They then had the benefit of a full-season lockout in which their picks were able to develop. This year, with the best player in the game coupled with some solid FA signings and the well-developed youth, they have morphed into one of the best teams in the game.

To get back to basketball, this indicates to me that Dolan would allow a rebuild if Isiah proved to him that it is the best way to go. Rebuilding the Knicks would definitely take longer, because unlike in hockey, a team can only make a few selections in a draft and the Knicks also won't have the best player in the game to speed up the process. There's also no guarantee that it will be successful in yielding a championship. Right now though, I think it's absolutely necessary to do so just to change the image of the Knicks from a team of mercenaries to a team of industrious players who play their hearts out. Then if we're under the cap, what superstar wouldn't relish the opportunity to play in NY?
bigbeast
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2/26/2006  5:04 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by bigbeast:

I'm saying Isiah doesn't have a hand in this, but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD you guys need to take that teflon jacket off Brown. The defensive genious is doing a horrible job.

I don't care if this team was full of CBA players, Brown is supposed to be good enough toe turn them around

no one is saying that Brown gets a free pass, but we are all watching the same games. Who on the premiter stays in front of their man? Q sometimes can jam up a player but Marb, Nate and JC have been sivs. I don't think Brown's instructions were to let your man go by. Fight over pick: I know that has been stressed over and over... can the players follow instrunction?

Know Your Personal. That's Brown's mantra, right? And yet 3point shooter after 3point shooter is open all the time. How come? I am SURE Brown has stressed that.

Block out and get the defensive rebound. Are the Bigs doing that?

Martin, everything your saying is correct. But the last time I checked its the coaches reposibility to teach defense (he's a defensive coach, isn't he?) He's supposed to teach them how to box out, help and recover (he's a great teacher, and I stress the word TEACHER ISN'T HE?)

I'm an 8th grade teacher, I teach my students things that don't know. Whats the point of me teaching kids things they already know. Its my job to mold them and prepare them. Thats Brown job.

I'm sick of hearing this nonsense about you need defensive players. Please! If Brown is a teacher, you teach them the proper angles, and such.






[Edited by - bigbeast on 02-26-2006 5:40 PM]
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jaydh
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2/26/2006  5:16 PM
Posted by bigbeast:


I'm sick of hearing this nonsense about you need defensive players. Please! If Brown is a teacher, you teach them the proper angles, and such.

do you really think he is not trying to teach them these things? my guess is that he is, but the players arent executing.
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2/26/2006  5:17 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by martin:
Posted by bigbeast:

I'm saying Isiah doesn't have a hand in this, but FOR CRYING OUT LOUD you guys need to take that teflon jacket off Brown. The defensive genious is doing a horrible job.

I don't care if this team was full of CBA players, Brown is supposed to be good enough toe turn them around

no one is saying that Brown gets a free pass, but we are all watching the same games. Who on the premiter stays in front of their man? Q sometimes can jam up a player but Marb, Nate and JC have been sivs. I don't think Brown's instructions were to let your man go by. Fight over pick: I know that has been stressed over and over... can the players follow instrunction?

Know Your Personal. That's Brown's mantra, right? And yet 3point shooter after 3point shooter is open all the time. How come? I am SURE Brown has stressed that.

Block out and get the defensive rebound. Are the Bigs doing that?

Martin, everything your saying is correct. But the last time I checked its the coaches reposibility to teach, defense (he's a defensive coach, isn't he) hes supposed to teahc them how to box out, help and recover (he's a great teacher, and I stress the word TEACHER ISN'T HE?)

I'm an 8th grade teacher, I teach my students things that don't know. Whats the point of me teaching kids things they already know. Its my job to mold them and prepare them. Thats Brown job.

I'm sick of hearing this nonsense about you need defensive players. Please! If Brown is a teacher, you teach them the proper angles, and such.

well, here is the thing... what if 3rd graders came to your 8th grade class and were taught and then tested the same as your normaal 8th graders every 2-3 days? Fire the teacher or take a second look and see if 8th graders showed up to take the tests?

Man, how can Brown be a teacher for 30 years and have some really really good results and then all of sudden the ship be sinking? He forgot how to teach defense in a 3 month span from Detroit to NY?

I think Brown IS trying to confuse the guys on purpose by giving them the PHD level stuff. He wants NY to bottom out and then eventually take them to the top and be called a savior and king. That's my underground theory.
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2/26/2006  5:34 PM
Posted by martin:

I think Brown IS trying to confuse the guys on purpose by giving them the PHD level stuff. He wants NY to bottom out and then eventually take them to the top and be called a savior and king. That's my underground theory.
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bigbeast
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2/26/2006  5:40 PM
If that is your theory, then you are admitting that this dibacle is mostly Browns fault, No?
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NotFrye
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2/26/2006  5:59 PM
Fire everyone. Heads need to roll. Blow everything up and sell the team. Dolan you are a stupid piece of ****
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2/26/2006  6:09 PM
As lomg as Dolan is here, the knicks will suck forever... If somehow, we hear news that Dolan is selling the knicks, that will be the start of a vision for a championship...
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martin
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2/26/2006  6:42 PM
Posted by bigbeast:

If that is your theory, then you are admitting that this dibacle is mostly Browns fault, No?

mostly?

I find it interesting that we have so many threads that need to assign blame to one person. Really, how can you point blame on one person?

It all starts with the players on the court on both ends. Players do have to play. Coach does have to give them a good agenda, and past history tells me that Brown can hold up his end, but I don't think he has played the players who could have won the most games. Is that good or bad? Sit the rooks and play the vets and get another 10-15 wins? But then you get blamed for the Darko effect. Play Curry and Frye for the minutes and you get no interior defense. Play Malik and AD and you get defense but no offense. Play Malik at all and you get folks wanting to blame Brown for giving the guy minutes over Lee or Q2. Play Lee and watch him lose his man on the 3 point line for 6 games straight even though they win and maybe Lee doesn't understand the long term importance of watching for that and ends up like Curry who doesn't understand the importance of blocking out and rotating on D and giving 100% all the time. Play JC at the point cause you have no other PG to back up Marbury and he becomes an ineffective player. Play JC at the SG spot and he can't defend his position and only shows up 1 out of 5 games on the offensive end. Play Nate but watch him make the same mistakes over and over and over again.

How about Isiah? He has put together a team that does not have 1 defender. Name 1 that can play significant minutes? So how can you blame Brown for not teaching defense when you don't have 1 guy who can individually defend or at least 3-4 guys who understand team D? AD and Malik understand defense, but then they can't play on the other end and fans call for benching them.

Why do we or you feel the need to blame someone at every turn? Break down the game for me and show me something that I have missed and then I can perk up.

Acutally I do blame Dolan for being a blind idiot. The guy has put his money where his mouth is but unfortunately he has given it to the wrong people/places.
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LJ2
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2/26/2006  7:27 PM
Posted by martin:


I think Brown IS trying to confuse the guys on purpose by giving them the PHD level stuff. He wants NY to bottom out and then eventually take them to the top and be called a savior and king. That's my underground theory.

I think he envisioned breaking the team down, imparting his "PHD level stuff," and having the team suffer through a tough opening season. I don't think he planned on it getting this bad. Coaches get fired bc of starts like this.
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