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Sick of Isiah’s Draft Record (Its not that amazing)
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McK1
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2/7/2006  2:29 PM
Posted by firefly:

Mck1, you need to look over your posts and admit to youself that you are a living breathing example of the grass is always greener.

Any time you speak about another teams players its 'will prove in the future' or 'he'll be ak47 in a few years' but when it comes to your own players you can't look past what they've done today. Who the hell is Al Jefferson? What's he ever done on a court that makes him so special? What's his highest rebounding figures? Top scoring game? Why was Granger buried on the bench most of this year? As far as I recall, Green has less assists then Curry does and he's the worst passer in the league almost! What makes you so sure he's going to get it, but Frye,Lee and Nate are done and dusted developmentwise? Cha taking May was weird but IT taking his guys was a mistake!

Cmon man! be real to yourself at least.

I'm glad you asked.

2 years removed from highschool Al's best game of his career thus far: 21 and 12 with 2 blocks vs Dallas...& he has 5 double-doubles this year compared to Frye's 1. he has 6 double-digit rebounding games compared to Fryes 2. In 18 minutes a night he is getting 5.3 rebs per. And he plays with a guard in Pierce who gobbles up rebounds better than most 4's and 5's.

Green has played 3 minutes all year. I'm am so happy Curry's 8 assist in 1011 minutes is better than somebody.

O'Neal Foster Artest Stephen Jackson aren't chopped liver. He has been getting minutes since the Artest thing and injury bug hit Indy and producing.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
AUTOADVERT
firefly
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2/7/2006  2:29 PM
Don't know if you're adressing me MS, but I was refering to Mck1 prefering anyone not on the Knicks, specifically rookies. How can you say Isiah did a bad job this draft when the only one (maybe two) player(s) who have shown more potential were drafted ahead of use by Milwaukee and NO. It smacks of silliness, and I think Mck1 should realize it himself.

I wasn't talking about what Isiah did in trades, nor is this thread about trades. This is a draft thread is it not?
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
firefly
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2/7/2006  2:31 PM
I can't respond right now Mck1 but check back later.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
PresIke
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2/7/2006  2:36 PM
Posted by MS:

The McGrady draft was so weak after TMAC, he shouldn't have taken any of them...I said he only gets credit for McGrady, and when you are brining up impact player you need to look at the situation....

I know you are giving Isiah "some credit" for drafting McGrady but you kind of conveniently left out all of the busts that were picked ahead of him like...

2. Keith Van Horn (arguably)
4. Antonio Daniels
5. Tony Battie
6. Ron Mercer
7. Tim Thomas
8. Adonal Foyle

and only after Billups went to Detroit did he stop being considered a bust.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Rich
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2/7/2006  2:38 PM
In 1996, the great Ernie Grunfeld used three first round picks to draft Wallce, Jones, and McCarty.
crzymdups
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2/7/2006  2:44 PM
Posted by Rich:

In 1996, the great Ernie Grunfeld used three first round picks to draft Wallce, Jones, and McCarty.

Sandwiched around Zydrunas.
¿ △ ?
McK1
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2/7/2006  2:46 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Rich:

In 1996, the great Ernie Grunfeld used three first round picks to draft Wallce, Jones, and McCarty.

Sandwiched around Zydrunas.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
PresIke
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2/7/2006  2:48 PM
Posted by MS:

crzymdups clearly you can't read, no one said Camby was unimportant in that series, but lets not forget LJ's four point play, and everything else it was a team effort, he was def the X factor

Game Two:
LJ 25pts 7rbs, Houston 15, Childs 12 (Camby 6pts 11rbs)

Game Five:
Johnson 17pts Sprewell 29pts, Houston 19pts (Camby 21pts 13rbs)

Game Six:
Spree 20pts, Houston 32pts (Camby 15pts 9rbs)

no idea what the other games were

LJ played great in the '99 run, but Camby and Spree were the ones responsible for the Knicks re-surgence. That is well documented, I believe. I mean the Knicks were struggling all season long, with LJ starting and, JVG had relegated Spree & Camby to the bench almost all season because he was mad about Oak being traded, didn't like Marcus' work ethic in practice and thought the two were too "wild" for his plodding black hole (throw it into Ewing...who I love too btw) offense.

When Ewing went down with that injury Camby, Spree & Childs COMPLETELY CHANGED THE WAY THE KNICKS PLAYED BALL. How could anyone ever forget that? We suddenly were running the fast break, whenever we had the chance AND played good defense. Remember Camby & Spree just flying down the court past whoever was guarding them (The Pacers were old and slow then) and Childs pushing the ball for alley-oops? Those guys were mostly responsible for the Knicks turn around.

LJ had that miracle play, and did great in the Indiana series, but Camby, Spree & Childs had us turn the corner in the playoffs. I love what LJ did for us, and he deserves credit for his play and leadership, but Camby, Spree & Childs were the ones who forced stubborn ol' Mini-Me (JVG) to change his game plan.


[Edited by - PresIke on 02-07-2006 2:49 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
holfresh
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2/7/2006  2:55 PM
Posted by MS:

Isiah had McDyees and Ward expiring thats a position of strength along with a first round pick, and two very interesting euro's who suck but they had value at the time (he could have just bought out Eisley if we didn't want him)

The next year he had Harrington, Williams, and Deke expiring along with Nazy Mohammmed he rushed a deal in the offseason for Crawford and added more Salary for Jerome Williams

He had two expiring contracts this year, and also another draft pick....

Had he not went crazy and added long term deals, Mo, Malik, Crawford, Jerome we have more flexibility.....be real give me a break you be real...turning expiring contracts into fringe talent is worthless



Continuing with the realistic theme, the Knicks were not getting under the cap for at least 4 years because of contracts from the previous admin. The owner wanted to get to the playoffs at all cost, financially that is. I know you want to lay this all on Isiah. You can, if it will make you feel better, but you will only be kidding yourself.
crzymdups
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2/7/2006  3:21 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by MS:

Isiah had McDyees and Ward expiring thats a position of strength along with a first round pick, and two very interesting euro's who suck but they had value at the time (he could have just bought out Eisley if we didn't want him)

The next year he had Harrington, Williams, and Deke expiring along with Nazy Mohammmed he rushed a deal in the offseason for Crawford and added more Salary for Jerome Williams

He had two expiring contracts this year, and also another draft pick....

Had he not went crazy and added long term deals, Mo, Malik, Crawford, Jerome we have more flexibility.....be real give me a break you be real...turning expiring contracts into fringe talent is worthless



Continuing with the realistic theme, the Knicks were not getting under the cap for at least 4 years because of contracts from the previous admin. The owner wanted to get to the playoffs at all cost, financially that is. I know you want to lay this all on Isiah. You can, if it will make you feel better, but you will only be kidding yourself.

I agree. I don't think it's debatable that Isiah has gone out and taken on more money to get better talent in here. He started out with a bunch of C vets who were going down, and half of whom were signed to ridiculous long-term deals. He upgraded to a bunch of B- vets (I'd give Qrich and Jalen solid Bs, though) and has brought in some young talent that has a chance to be B+ or possibly A- level (Curry, Frye can be A- level/borderline all-stars. Craw, Lee can be solid starters/first guys off the bench). Marbury is a solid A- in his prime, face of the franchise. It was a process that was meant to get us to the playoffs immediately, per Dolan and slowly upgrade the overall talent of the team.

People can complain that he should have waited around, bought people out (they'd still be on the cap) and totally rebuilt through the draft, but that obviously wasn't an option with Dolan. I don't think it's fair to say it's not working when Marbury is out. If Marbury comes back healthy and we still look like garbage, obviously you have to explore a trade for Marbury and think about firing Zeke. I still blame Dolan more for the win now approach of the Marbury trade and I think whoever comes in next will be working under the same misguided notion that we need to get a star/face of the franchise player first and worry about building a championship contedender later.

Dolan tied the fate of this franchise to Allan Houston, a solid borderline all-star who was handsome and well regarded as a nice guy and made a respectable face of the franchise. I think that will be the MO of the franchise as long as Dolan is here. I think Zeke has done a solid job trying to rebuild under those constraints, bringing in high-ceiling young bigs and some solid pieces and a good coach. It just hasn't clicked yet and thus we are a laughing stock.
¿ △ ?
misterearl
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2/7/2006  3:36 PM
MS - if you are so sick of Isiah's draft record, can you please note an alternate over the past three years?

Just one.
once a knick always a knick
rvhoss
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2/7/2006  4:18 PM
they can never note an alternate, or someone that has done better job at GM in the first 2 years on a job.

It's just hating.
all kool aid all the time.
LBeast
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2/7/2006  4:18 PM
Posted by McK1:
2004 - If they did that draft over Ariza would be a lottery pick despite Brown burying him to death.

no he wouldn't. Cleveland takes Al Jefferson or JR Smith over Luke. Ariza would go before none of the other 12 picks.

[Edited by - McK1 on 02-07-2006 1:44 PM]

These are the players better than Ariza in that draft.
Howard
Okafor
Gordon
Livingston
Harris
Childress
Deng
Iguodala
Jefferson
JR Smith
Josh Smith

So he'd go 13th. IF you can find another player, so what? He'd go 14th or 15th instead of 43rd. Split hairs if you want.
misterearl
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2/7/2006  4:22 PM
C'mon, SOMEBODY has GOT to name a GM with a decent comprehensive drafting record over the past three years.

Knicks have not had many Lottery picks don't count so don't be a wiseguy

Step up somebody.. MS, you started it..

can you FINISH it?

once a knick always a knick
LBeast
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2/7/2006  4:23 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by MS:

Isiah had McDyees and Ward expiring thats a position of strength along with a first round pick, and two very interesting euro's who suck but they had value at the time (he could have just bought out Eisley if we didn't want him)

The next year he had Harrington, Williams, and Deke expiring along with Nazy Mohammmed he rushed a deal in the offseason for Crawford and added more Salary for Jerome Williams

He had two expiring contracts this year, and also another draft pick....

Had he not went crazy and added long term deals, Mo, Malik, Crawford, Jerome we have more flexibility.....be real give me a break you be real...turning expiring contracts into fringe talent is worthless



Continuing with the realistic theme, the Knicks were not getting under the cap for at least 4 years because of contracts from the previous admin. The owner wanted to get to the playoffs at all cost, financially that is. I know you want to lay this all on Isiah. You can, if it will make you feel better, but you will only be kidding yourself.

If Isiah was patient and truly rebuilding like he claims NOW, then we'd be out from under those salaries at the end of next season. And that's WITH Marbury's contract. And we're now at the point where IT's thinking about bringing in guys like Ratliff and Patterson for Lee and/or Ariza. Some youth movement.

The cap was bad, but why keep it going into perpituity by bringing in more long term contracts attached to mediocre, damaged or over the hill players? This way has lead us to a 14-31 record. Why keep it going?

misterearl
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2/7/2006  4:27 PM
I thought this thread was about Isiah's draft record.

Can you stay on point LBeast? Sheesh.

Name a GM over the past 3 years with a better overall draft record.
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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2/7/2006  4:28 PM
MS, Bueller?

Anyone?
once a knick always a knick
MS
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2/7/2006  4:36 PM
Seriously has anyone watched Ariza travel, look awkard anytime he does anything and shoot the Ball, we give Isiah credit because he took someone that was better than the position but
Howard
Okafor
Gordon
Livingston
Harris
Childress
Deng
Iguodala
Jefferson
JR Smith
Josh Smith
Lets add
Telfair, Swift, Jameer Nelson, Delonte West, Kevin Martin, Udrih, David Harrison (as good as Jerome James), Anderson Varejao, and Chris Duhon. He would go about 22-25 range……

And I was not upset with his drafting I am upset that he gets a pass because of it, when he has ****ed this organization royaly, we are the laughing stock of the entire NBA
PresIke
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2/7/2006  4:41 PM
Posted by LBeast:
Posted by McK1:
2004 - If they did that draft over Ariza would be a lottery pick despite Brown burying him to death.

no he wouldn't. Cleveland takes Al Jefferson or JR Smith over Luke. Ariza would go before none of the other 12 picks.

[Edited by - McK1 on 02-07-2006 1:44 PM]

These are the players better than Ariza in that draft.
Howard
Okafor
Gordon
Livingston
Harris
Childress
Deng
Iguodala
Jefferson
JR Smith
Josh Smith

So he'd go 13th. IF you can find another player, so what? He'd go 14th or 15th instead of 43rd. Split hairs if you want.

I'll split some hairs, why not...

Telfair
Duhon
Kelvin Martin
Delonte West

Probably all playing better than Ariza at this point. One could also argue Kirk Snyder who has shown some promise this year on the Hornets, Beno Udrih who played well with the Spurs last year when he got minutes and David Harrison are all better than Ariza as well, especially since he's a big man who is a very good shot blocker, but that's debatable.

Ariza is a first rounder, but he's not a 2004 lotto pick in hindsight. He's a mid-late first rounder based on the development of players from that draft at this point. Zeke seems to have done a good job with drafting Ariza in the mid 2nd round, but let's not get carried away here, after top 11 or so no one has really made much of an impact on a consistent basis. The talent after those top guys drops significantly. I like Ariza, but man he has ZERO ability to create his own shot. Other than make some nice passes on ocassion and dunk it he's pretty useless on the offensive end of the floor. His defense is pretty good and he has nice athleticism, but it's hard to see him become more than a potential defensive stopper, unless he works REALLY hard on his offensive game.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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2/7/2006  4:43 PM
Posted by MS:

Seriously has anyone watched Ariza travel, look awkard anytime he does anything and shoot the Ball, we give Isiah credit because he took someone that was better than the position but
Howard
Okafor
Gordon
Livingston
Harris
Childress
Deng
Iguodala
Jefferson
JR Smith
Josh Smith
Lets add
Telfair, Swift, Jameer Nelson, Delonte West, Kevin Martin, Udrih, David Harrison (as good as Jerome James), Anderson Varejao, and Chris Duhon. He would go about 22-25 range……

And I was not upset with his drafting I am upset that he gets a pass because of it, when he has ****ed this organization royaly, we are the laughing stock of the entire NBA

Exactly what I was saying too (the part about the guys who would go ahead of him). And I didn't even include Jameer Nelson, Swift, or Varejao. I think it's still debatable if some of those guys are better than him, but you could draft them ahead of him or he ahead of them, in hindsight, and make an argument for it.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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