[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

THIS is why we should have gotten the Rap's pick with little or no protection
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 3 of 4 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
tomverve
Posts: 21407
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/4/2005
Member: #878
2/4/2006  12:50 PM
Posted by Marv:

I think you also look at it in context of where the team is right now too. Isiah's been making trades like this one for the last 2 years. we're looking to see what the result is supposed to be in terms of roster balance, team chemistry and output on the floor. it's pretty natural to lump this trade in with all the others which have led to dubious results so far.

There are similarities, yes, but I think this is easily the best one out of "this kind of deal" that Isiah has done so far. The other ones have come with various caveats, but this one seems pretty safe. We didn't lose a terribly important player, we didn't give up picks, in fact we got a pick that at least has a chance of being in the low lottery, we got a player who can step in and help right away, and we didn't hurt the long term cap situation. Other Isiah-esque deals have typically involved either giving up picks and/or adding salary past the Houston expiration watershed... not this one.
help treat disease with your spare computing power : http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/
AUTOADVERT
Knight
Posts: 22775
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 7/21/2005
Member: #968
2/4/2006  12:52 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by Marv:

I think you also look at it in context of where the team is right now too. Isiah's been making trades like this one for the last 2 years. we're looking to see what the result is supposed to be in terms of roster balance, team chemistry and output on the floor. it's pretty natural to lump this trade in with all the others which have led to dubious results so far.

There are similarities, yes, but I think this is easily the best one out of "this kind of deal" that Isiah has done so far. The other ones have come with various caveats, but this one seems pretty safe. We didn't lose a terribly important player, we didn't give up picks, in fact we got a pick that at least has a chance of being in the low lottery, we got a player who can step in and help right away, and we didn't hurt the long term cap situation. Other Isiah-esque deals have typically involved either giving up picks and/or adding salary past the Houston expiration watershed... not this one.

Yep, it's hard to see any significant downside to this trade.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/4/2006  12:57 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

No I wouldnt. Not for a second. It would be a risk but a solid one IMO. I would looking at some incredible options this offseason. Options like Nate,Frye and Spurs pick for Elton Brand. Options like throwing max money at Ben Wallace to rejoin Larry in NY. Options like going after Rashard Lewis.

Yeah, but if you don't trade the pick, you have those same kind of options the following offseason, *and* you have a young gun from the lottery. Doesn't make sense to ditch the lottery pick just to make the extra options come one year earlier, unless you're targetting one or two guys in particular and you're almost positive you can land at least one of them. That's always a dicey proposition in free agency though.
Bosh will be a RFA and looking at max money. This ensures you have cap space to use before that happens. It also gives you a shot at putting stud next to him that can help right away.

I think major cap space is less risky than the draft. Draft you have one pick. Cap space you have every FA and myriad of trade possibilites that arent available to teams without it.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Marv
Posts: 35540
Alba Posts: 69
Joined: 9/2/2002
Member: #315
2/4/2006  12:59 PM
Posted by Knight:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by tomverve:

I think the trade is a solid single. Depending on where the ball bounces, maybe it stretches out into a double, maybe not. And hey, I'm happy with that.

It's kind of funny... if Isiah strikes out, people complain he didn't go for the bunt. If he hits a single, people complain he should have went for extra bases. And when he does swing for the fences, people say he should have went for the single.

I think you also look at it in context of where the team is right now too. Isiah's been making trades like this one for the last 2 years. we're looking to see what the result is supposed to be in terms of roster balance, team chemistry and output on the floor. it's pretty natural to lump this trade in with all the others which have led to dubious results so far.

What expiring contract did he trade for a first round draft pick?

"Trades like this" I said. It's very reminiscent of the trade with Phoenix last year. So far we're not seeing a lot of coherence or jelling out of all of this.

It's still possible. But so far it seems like the only shot is if we have all the pieces to the engine together at once and that they're all finrg at peak efficiency at once. Wasn't that what was going on during the 6-game streak? DIdn't Curry, Frye, Marbury, Crawford, Lee, Nate and AD all play their best ball at the same time? When we're missing one of them (and obviously we now have to replace AD's muscle work) or any one of them is off their game, the whole thing collapses.

Now we're short the muscle (maybe AD was just going to blow up here anyway - talk about domestic distractions!) and we have Jalen who may or may not add to how the machine works together, and another mid-round young kid next year. Doesn't make me any more assured that this group is going to gel, play right, play together.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
2/4/2006  1:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TMS:
but you can't expect them to give up their top 5 lottery pick just to get cap savings...
Pho did. They then signed Nash and Q

Phoenix had the 7th pick and they traded it because they heard Atlanta was drafting Igoudala. When ATL passed on Iggy, PHX was pissed. They wanted their hometown star. They regretted that trade.
no they didnt... they traded that pick because of the $2.5mm in cap space it held.

Anyway the Kittles scenario was an EXAMPLE. I'm not saying Tor should go get Kittles. How about if Tor trades Charlie V, Mo Pete and Alvin Williams and picks for Paul Pierce and Raef? Bos gets to start all over, clear out their worst deal and get picks. Tor gets a star to put with Bosh as they wouldnt be able to sign one otherwise.

Anyway.. if you dont see the point life goes on.

Its my opinion that while this trade DOES help the Knicks we once again did something far more beneficial for another team than us. I think we could have gotten more from them. Thats just one guy's opinion

Phoenix could have done what every team with cap space does to it's draft picks, make them wait to officially sign to keep the cap space open for the summer. They were upset they missed out on Iggy. I know they wanted the space, but the only reason they traded the pick was that they thought they had no shot at Iggy and there wasn't anyone else they wanted.
¿ △ ?
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/4/2006  1:06 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Phoenix could have done what every team with cap space does to it's draft picks, make them wait to officially sign to keep the cap space open for the summer. They were upset they missed out on Iggy. I know they wanted the space, but the only reason they traded the pick was that they thought they had no shot at Iggy and there wasn't anyone else they wanted.
read the CBA. Its doesnt work that way. When you draft a player their rookie salary counts against your cap, signed or unsigned. In your scenario they could have waited on draft day, see if Iggy was available, and if he wasnt drafted someone a team told them they wanted and traded the draft rights and kept their cap space. They wanted the cap space.. plain and simple. They said this

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
2/4/2006  1:08 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by tomverve:

It doesn't matter how good the trade was for Toronto (and it was a good trade for them). All that matters is if the trade helps us out, and it does. Who cares how Toronto makes out? Are you trying to say this trade would have been better if it was a terrible trade for Toronto somehow, but it was just as good for us? Maybe the rule is that once you make a trade with a team, an L on their record is a W on yours? Seriously, I don't get it.

OK, maybe I see where you're coming from-- you're saying that since Toronto got something they wanted badly, we could have squeezed out more from them. Possible, but it's pure conjecture. If you want to believe the rumors in the rags, Toronto was holding off on including any pick at all for a long time. And in any case, TMS is right-- if Tor gave up an unprotected lotto pick just to shave off one year of a max contract, that would have been an absolutely terrible deal for them. It's probably not realistic to expect that they would have even seriously thought of doing that.

Seriously... imagine the situation was identical, but the teams were switched. You're telling me you'd want or expect your Knicks to trade a lottery pick just to get out from under one year of a max contract? Realistically, if that happened, you'd be stomping around saying what a crappy deal it was, along with everyone else... and rightfully so. That's way too much to pay just to get cap relief a year earlier.
Well Tom thats what separates average GMs from great ones or good ones. A better GM would have seen another teams need, and recognized that the Knicks were the ONLY ones in the league that could help them achieve their goals. That drives the price up. This is business 101 man. When your competitor is desperate for something only you have you drive up the price. Kind of like the Suns did with us. Kind of like the Bulls did with us. Kind of like Jerome Jame's agent did with us. Kind of like Crawford's agent did with us (your welcome Jamal, Vin Baker). Put it all together and you have a crappy GM.

Its adds up Tom. Bad business always does. I think we could have done better than a pick in the 20s with $35mm.
How were they desperate when they could keep a top 3 lottery pick and do all the wonderful things with cap room you've suggested 12 months later? There's no way I'd give up a top 3 pick just because I was too impatient to wait 12 months.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
2/4/2006  1:17 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by tomverve:

Seriously... imagine the situation was identical, but the teams were switched. You're telling me you'd want or expect your Knicks to trade a lottery pick just to get out from under one year of a max contract? Realistically, if that happened, you'd be stomping around saying what a crappy deal it was, along with everyone else... and rightfully so. That's way too much to pay just to get cap relief a year earlier.
No I wouldnt. Not for a second. It would be a risk but a solid one IMO. I would looking at some incredible options this offseason. Options like Nate,Frye and Spurs pick for Elton Brand. Options like throwing max money at Ben Wallace to rejoin Larry in NY. Options like going after Rashard Lewis.

Options, options, options. My option now is wait and pray to god Isiah drafts a star that slips through the corners somehow.

Those aren't options, those are pipe dreams. Brand isn't leaving LA and Big Ben isn't leaving Detroit. Cap room leads to just as many delusions as expiring contracts.

Fish, I understand what you are saying, but I think you are devaluing what we got for AD. AD probably won't report to Toronto, we got a vet who is 4 yrs younger than AD who can score and was well liked in Toronto by his teammates and is a personality that will not only mesh with Marbury, but stand up to him if necessary. We got an unprotected pick that's coming from a team with injuries that is currently 1.5 games from slipping into the lottery.

Sure, cap flexibility would be nice but really the only team I can think of that made a championship caliber move with cap space was the Lakers getting Shaq. The Pistons were never under the cap. The Spurs use the cap like geniuses, but they've built their team with late round first rounders to complement Duncan. The Nets (two trips to the Finals) were never under the cap, they just drafted well getting Jefferson 11th overall. The Pacers who made the Finals in 2000 and everyone points to as a great franchise have never been under the cap, they've rebuilt through smart drafting and trades. They've made some good trades and some questionable trades. Dallas hasn't been under the cap since Cuban got there and they've made plenty of huge moves and they have the second best record in the league now. Phoenix is an example of a team that got a huge break through cap room.

I think you can make a case that shrewd drafting is just as, if not more important than cap space. PHX drafted Amare, Marion. Dallas drafted Harris, Josh Howard, used an expiring deal to get the pick for Harris, used an expiring deal to get Terry. San Antonio drafted Parker, Manu. the one time they had cap room they signed Rasho Nestorovic to a deal they regret. Pacers have drafted Granger, Tinsley, Harrison with late picks. Detroit acquired Rip and Sheed through trades, got Ben Wallace when Hill left, drafted Prince at 23rd overall, signed Chauncey to the MLE.

Drafting well and using expiring deals smartly is what the top teams in the league do. There are very few examples, other than PHX which every seems to take a personal offense to, of a team using cap space to build a championship contender.
¿ △ ?
tomverve
Posts: 21407
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/4/2005
Member: #878
2/4/2006  1:18 PM
Posted by Marv:

"Trades like this" I said. It's very reminiscent of the trade with Phoenix last year. So far we're not seeing a lot of coherence or jelling out of all of this.

It is reminiscent of the Phoenix trade, but I see several important differences.

1) We lost more by trading KT than we did by trading AD.
2) Q's contract runs through 2010 (...ugh) but Rose's only goes through next season, and so doesn't extend past Houston.
3) Rose is better than Q, plain and simple. He's a lot more than a streaky spot up shooter and doesn't seem to have nagging injury problems. His skill set directly addresses a big team need, not so much the case with Q.
4) At worst, the Denver pick will be around the 20 area, same as the Phoenix pick. But there is at least a chance that it could be significantly higher.
help treat disease with your spare computing power : http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/
BigRedDog
Posts: 22226
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2004
Member: #569
2/4/2006  1:20 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by tomverve:

It doesn't matter how good the trade was for Toronto (and it was a good trade for them). All that matters is if the trade helps us out, and it does. Who cares how Toronto makes out? Are you trying to say this trade would have been better if it was a terrible trade for Toronto somehow, but it was just as good for us? Maybe the rule is that once you make a trade with a team, an L on their record is a W on yours? Seriously, I don't get it.

OK, maybe I see where you're coming from-- you're saying that since Toronto got something they wanted badly, we could have squeezed out more from them. Possible, but it's pure conjecture. If you want to believe the rumors in the rags, Toronto was holding off on including any pick at all for a long time. And in any case, TMS is right-- if Tor gave up an unprotected lotto pick just to shave off one year of a max contract, that would have been an absolutely terrible deal for them. It's probably not realistic to expect that they would have even seriously thought of doing that.

Seriously... imagine the situation was identical, but the teams were switched. You're telling me you'd want or expect your Knicks to trade a lottery pick just to get out from under one year of a max contract? Realistically, if that happened, you'd be stomping around saying what a crappy deal it was, along with everyone else... and rightfully so. That's way too much to pay just to get cap relief a year earlier.
Well Tom thats what separates average GMs from great ones or good ones. A better GM would have seen another teams need, and recognized that the Knicks were the ONLY ones in the league that could help them achieve their goals. That drives the price up. This is business 101 man. When your competitor is desperate for something only you have you drive up the price. Kind of like the Suns did with us. Kind of like the Bulls did with us. Kind of like Jerome Jame's agent did with us. Kind of like Crawford's agent did with us (your welcome Jamal, Vin Baker). Put it all together and you have a crappy GM.

Its adds up Tom. Bad business always does. I think we could have done better than a pick in the 20s with $35mm.
How were they desperate when they could keep a top 3 lottery pick and do all the wonderful things with cap room you've suggested 12 months later? There's no way I'd give up a top 3 pick just because I was too impatient to wait 12 months.

I agree with Tom and Bonn 100%. Talk about a bad GM fishy, if the trade was reversed and isiah traded a unprotected lottery pick in this deal THAT would be a bad gm. He did the best anyone could in THIS deal .The pick has an outside chance to be really good and who knows maybe we can package some things and move up in the draft. I'm sorry but you can't kill isiah on this deal ,it was good.
fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/4/2006  1:24 PM
just like Nash wasnt leaving Dallas where he played with his best friend in Dirk.

Its funny how teams that have cap space are often able to use it to do great things, but teams without say there's never any guarentee. Same with the draft. Nothing is certain, but teams with cap space have flexibility to make great moves. Teams without are limited. Teams that trade away picks talk about what a crapshoot the draft is.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
2/4/2006  1:27 PM
Posted by fishmike:

just like Nash wasnt leaving Dallas where he played with his best friend in Dirk.

Its funny how teams that have cap space are often able to use it to do great things, but teams without say there's never any guarentee. Same with the draft. Nothing is certain, but teams with cap space have flexibility to make great moves. Teams without are limited. Teams that trade away picks talk about what a crapshoot the draft is.

Fair enough, but I just gave you the top six or seven teams in the league and only Phx used cap space to get a major piece. Also, Dallas lost Nash, true, but they weren't under the cap, but still rebuilt and are probably better now than they ever were with Nash. (I love how no one talks about Nash's inability to play D. That's why he'll always pile up the regular season wins and lose in the second round of the playoffs.)
¿ △ ?
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/4/2006  1:28 PM
Posted by BigRedDog:
I'm sorry but you can't kill isiah on this deal ,it was good
where am I killing Isiah? I'm lumping this in with most of his moves where he helped another team more than he helped himself. I have said all along its a good deal for us. We always overpay and take back too much

Take another look

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
kam77
Posts: 27664
Alba Posts: 25
Joined: 3/17/2004
Member: #634
2/4/2006  1:29 PM
fishmike:

It's OK that TOR got a lot of cap room out of this deal, hence the trade. We don't have to ROB them of a top3 draft pick for Antonio Davis. Why would TOR do THAT deal?? They'd be killed! Deals get made and both teams ought to have reason to cheer. Stop being so sensitive about ESPN and the nat'l media, everyone with a brain in NYC knows they're idiots.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/4/2006  1:40 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:

just like Nash wasnt leaving Dallas where he played with his best friend in Dirk.

Its funny how teams that have cap space are often able to use it to do great things, but teams without say there's never any guarentee. Same with the draft. Nothing is certain, but teams with cap space have flexibility to make great moves. Teams without are limited. Teams that trade away picks talk about what a crapshoot the draft is.

Fair enough, but I just gave you the top six or seven teams in the league and only Phx used cap space to get a major piece. Also, Dallas lost Nash, true, but they weren't under the cap, but still rebuilt and are probably better now than they ever were with Nash. (I love how no one talks about Nash's inability to play D. That's why he'll always pile up the regular season wins and lose in the second round of the playoffs.)
listen... I love the draft, especially the top of it. I've been a big proponent of just avoiding dumb contracts and letting Zeke draft as thats what he does best. My only point is there is a very high value placed on cap space and financial flexibility in this league, and that Zeke didnt play push for better deal.
I will be honest about something else.. if werent the worst team in the league right now and have a roster with 4-5 guys I wish would just go away
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/4/2006  1:42 PM
Posted by kam77:

fishmike get your facts straight

Bosh is NOT going into RFA this offseason, the RAPS only pressure to make this deal is because they wanted cap room to maybe re-sign Mike James if he decides to bold and accoprding to hoopshype they have Calderon to re-up as well. That will take them to the cap. They WON'T have the money to spend on a top-level MAX FA. And they'll only have decent money below the cap if they don't try to re=sign James.

I like your posts but on this one tomverve is just making a million times more sense than you are.
read what I said before you question my facts. I said it gives them max cap space BEFORE (in caps for your easy reading) they have to sign Bosh.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
2/4/2006  1:44 PM
Fish, I think you're missing the simple fact that Toronto could have kept their top 3 pick and had every single wonderful benefit of cap space that you're describing just 12 months later.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
2/4/2006  1:51 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:

just like Nash wasnt leaving Dallas where he played with his best friend in Dirk.

Its funny how teams that have cap space are often able to use it to do great things, but teams without say there's never any guarentee. Same with the draft. Nothing is certain, but teams with cap space have flexibility to make great moves. Teams without are limited. Teams that trade away picks talk about what a crapshoot the draft is.

Fair enough, but I just gave you the top six or seven teams in the league and only Phx used cap space to get a major piece. Also, Dallas lost Nash, true, but they weren't under the cap, but still rebuilt and are probably better now than they ever were with Nash. (I love how no one talks about Nash's inability to play D. That's why he'll always pile up the regular season wins and lose in the second round of the playoffs.)
listen... I love the draft, especially the top of it. I've been a big proponent of just avoiding dumb contracts and letting Zeke draft as thats what he does best. My only point is there is a very high value placed on cap space and financial flexibility in this league, and that Zeke didnt play push for better deal.
I will be honest about something else.. if werent the worst team in the league right now and have a roster with 4-5 guys I wish would just go away

I'm not saying everything is rosy. Malik and Q and Jerome have AWFUL contracts that we couldn't get rid of if we tried. Was Malik's contract worth getting Lee and another pick vs. resigning Nazr to a horrible contract? I think so. I think that counts as good use of financial assets. Would you be happier if we resigned Nazr for $6 million a year and got no picks?

Hey, the franchise is a mess right now, but I think we have the talent here to get out of it if we can get people healthy. We don't have the cap room, but we have flexibility to make some moves. We have two first rounders, we have Penny's expiring deal this season and Mo T/Jalen next season. It's not like we're hamstrung forever. Can we blow it all up and start over? No. I really don't think we need to though. I believe in Marbury, Curry and Frye and to a lesser degree Lee, QRich and Nate. Maybe I'm wrong. There's no reason not to try with them until Marbury's deal goes away.

¿ △ ?
kam77
Posts: 27664
Alba Posts: 25
Joined: 3/17/2004
Member: #634
2/4/2006  1:52 PM
Ahhh, must be signed in to make edits. d'oh
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
2/4/2006  2:00 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
I believe in Marbury, Curry and Frye and to a lesser degree Lee
So do I. I actually like most of the players IT has brought in, I just think we overpaid in almost every scenario. You look at each deal individually and most are pretty good on paper. Look at our roster right now and you say holy freakin mess batman. Part of that has to do with overpaying for guys you like and not having a plan. Most of these trades Isiah upgraded the talent, but has thus far failed miserably to build a team.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Page 3 of 4 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
THIS is why we should have gotten the Rap's pick with little or no protection
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy