I agree with Masterplan. I think this argument is just out of principles - an argument for the sake of arguing and saying "look, LB could've been wrong right there." It kind of reminds of correcting a teacher for the sake of correcting the teacher rather than because anything will come of it. A victory will gain you at most nothing and at worst a bunch of forum members who think you're annoying.

Besides, starting the vets was an OK strat. As most people are saying, if the rookies started right away then the PT could've gotten to their heads. It did to Ariza, who is pretty much worthless on this team except for defense. Funny note on that, on one of the few games that he would've gained from his defense (yesterday vs Lebron) he recorded a DNP. Now, everything is in order. The vets don't have a reason to complain. The rookies know they have to fight to keep their PT. It seems only Ariza is missing out on the logic.

Another note: I dont think anyone, not ot one single person, predicted Mo Taylor would do this good. He was an integral piece in the last 4 wins. If it wasn't for LB's constant shuffling, I dunno if we would've found this new MoT.

Yeah thats true. I guess it would've been fair to just put Davis on the inactive list after Isiah and LB begged him to come from Chicago. That would've been real tactful. Penny? He's never gotten many minutes.

"MoT was playing well all season." Hmmm.. we wouldn't really have known that if he was on the inactive list with Rose and Penny. No one knew he would be contributing and according to pretty much everyone on this forum he would've never had the chance to show himself.

And i'm sure you guys would still be gushing over Ariza. Let me say it right here: Ariza is garbage. He's athletic but he's got no bball IQ. He has 0 offense. None. Can't dribble. Can't shoot. Can't pass. That's what I call worthless. We wouldn't have known that.

Another point: who in the world knew that the 3 rookies would do this good. No one. Everyone was optimistic but Knicks fans (especially on this forum) gush over everyone coming here. Everyone. Its hard not to get excited. Q was gonna be our 3pt threat, Curry was gonna be the next Shaq, EVEN BIG SNACKS WAS GONNA BE GOOD! But realistically, no one knew that the 3 rookies would do this good so you don't have much of an argument. Frye was found first and he got minutes. He was quickly 2nd in the running for ROY. Then came Nate, not far behind. Lee was the only one that came pretty late but he was 30th pick and on a team with a glut at PF! Please, LB did his job.

But I guess if you guys were coaching we'd be 21 and 7 right now.

EDIT: BTW, hometowns? Name me one player who you didn't want to play when getting the start because of his hometown. Most of those hometown players were the rookies who need the PT.

[Edited by - metra on 01-11-2006 5:48 PM]

Posted by EnySpree:

larry was playing guys based on their hometowns.

But he can do that cuz he has a winning history?

Larry finally sticks with a starting line-up after almost 30 games?

oh he can do that cuz he always loses when he starts out.

So now all of a sudden when he shortens the rotation and sticks with a starting line-up, and plays the rookies.....the players are buying into the system?


All the players that are playing well now were playing well in the pre-season. Mo Taylor was playing well all season. His minutes were just all over the place. Rose, Davis, and Penny should have been inactive from the start of the season. No after almost 30 games Larry figures it out?!?!?!? By now the Knicks should be cruising.....but like Marbs said it's like they finally know each other cuz of all the shuffling.

You guys can bring this up the next time we meet up for a Season opener or something........all of you guys are idiots.

so what? if he did make mistakes, what are you trying to say? that he's not a good coach? that's why people bring up his record. especially now that the team is looking good, people don't want to hear pointless larry bashing. does that make us idiots?

[Edited by - Masterplan on 01-11-2006 5:52 PM]

Maybe LB could have done this from the door and we would be more successful maybe not. But whats done is done. All that matters is what happends from here on out for the rest of the season and beyond.

oohah, you already have your mind made up, so your view of all the facts are skewed to fit your view point. Crawford says LB deserves credit. You say of course he's going ot say that. Ariza say's LB is frustrating. You say See what the players are saying!
If I get anything from LB's comments its that there was an agenda for every player. Some have made progress, others have not. Clearly Trevor has struggled with whatever it is LB wants from him, where Crawford has adjusted better.

I would love it if you and others would present one fact before you get into this 'your mind is made up' stuff. But you have not presented one yet. Telling me what GM's think is not a fact--it is reporting a poll of opinion. You are the one who has his mind made up--"Lb cannot make a mistake, so please do not tell me any different".

This sentence sucks because it dusputes the facts.

This one is no good becaue it just attack my personal character.

Brown sucks no matter what cause I say so! OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!

When did I state that Brown sucks?

Why don't go do some research and come back at me with why the sky is really blue, and don't give me the everybody says so poor excuse for research, oh you get and F...

If LB told you and many others the sky was polka-dotted, I am sure you would believe it. The justification would be: "That's how you win!".

OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!OOHAH, OOHAH, OOHAH!!!

Simrud, your entire post was infantile. If you cannot beat someone in an argument of facts, try to attack them I guess..

Missing: Championship game, final four at UCLA

National Championship at Kansas.

Name the only coach to win a NCAA division one championship, and an NBA championship?

Not missing, I only catalogued his professional career. We have only been talking about his professional career. It seems that so many have so little knowledge about LB's pro career, getting into details of his college career would be too obscure...though I have mentioned his time at Kansas as his best coaching job ever.

Oohah? Nope

Oohah! Scent of a women!

Et Tu Nalod? Taking shots at me when arguement falls short? I am surprised...

oohah, enyspree, other LB critics: i think the statement "Larry mishandled the roster for 28 games" isn't worth arguing over because it just doesn't seem like a complete thought. it begs the question, "so what?" the other side says, "we didn't look so good for 28 games, but we're showing improvement and trying to get back into the picture this year and will be good down the road," thinking outside of those early disappointing games.

We'll see if that long term point of view is popular if the Knicks end up missing the playoffs by 3 games.

"Larry Brown mishandled the roster for 28 games, so..."

are you advocating firing Larry Brown? that he's losing it? i don't think anyone is.

I am certainly not advocating his firing. I don't know how that is relevant ot what I am saying.

are you saying we've dug ourselves too deep a hole this season? we're 3 games out of the playoffs with the majority of our games and our best ball ahead of us.

Let's hope that doesn't set the team back too far to make the season interesting toward the end.

are you saying the rookies/youth's development has been hindered? maybe it could have been sooner, maybe not. but they're playing well, sound happy and hungry, and will be even better down the road. at most, they could have won us a few more games early on. at worst, they don't develop right for the reasons Bippity talked about. i'll defer the decision to the guy the GMs picked...

I say the team's records should be better. LB mishandled the Roster. If you want to look for a greater meaning you will have to supply it yourself.

or, are you saying, if we waste this season, we won't have LB to coach us to the top once we're ready to compete for real? that's maybe a real beef with LB supporters. will he take off and leave us high and dry? i think most of us are hoping he was teaching this season, lessons that will last after he's gone, be it 2 years or 5. i do think it'll be 2 years, minimum, this and next and hopefully more, i think that's reasonable.

LB leaving before the job is done is a likelihood.

not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, just speculating. if none of these fit with what you're arguing, say your piece. but if all you want to argue is that LB made mistakes this season, i feel you have to continue the thought, say why that matters. all we as fans have to go on, aside from unreliable media reports, are the clear improvements we see now.

LB could have done a better job earlier in this season. It is important because the Knicks now have no margin for error if they would like to make the playoffs. I know many will chime in with "Who cares about the playoffs?" But those will be the same people talking about "3 games out" in another thread. I care about the playoffs, as does Dolan and Isiah.

I agree with Masterplan. I think this argument is just out of principles - an argument for the sake of arguing and saying "look, LB could've been wrong right there." It kind of reminds of correcting a teacher for the sake of correcting the teacher rather than because anything will come of it. A victory will gain you at most nothing and at worst a bunch of forum members who think you're annoying.

This argument is not out of principles. It goes back to when I was stating a few days before the 'turnaround' that LB should play his best players and push the ball more--then he did exactly that and everybody started going nuts with the "Larry Brown effect" choosing to ignore the evidence that he has changed his plan more than the players have changed.

Your 'correcting the teacher' point might be valid if I just came up with this view afterwards, or if I knew LB to correct him. Otherwise, I am just stating my point of view like everybody else does on this board.

If it is your view that I should fold because many people disagree with me. That will never happen. I could not care less if people are annoyed at me because I dare to question LB while they are worshipping him like a religous deity. That is their right to be annoyed, as I was annoyed at LB earlier.

Besides, starting the vets was an OK strat. As most people are saying, if the rookies started right away then the PT could've gotten to their heads. It did to Ariza, who is pretty much worthless on this team except for defense. Funny note on that, on one of the few games that he would've gained from his defense (yesterday vs Lebron) he recorded a DNP. Now, everything is in order. The vets don't have a reason to complain. The rookies know they have to fight to keep their PT. It seems only Ariza is missing out on the logic.

It could've gotten to the rookies 4 years in college--known to be intelligent guys heads, and it could've put us in the top 8 right now. I think to to say that playing would have somehow hurt the rookies is a stretch with no basis.

I don't see that Ariza is missing anything. But according to what you posted, LB playing Ariza as a starter was a MISTAKE! Watch out, saying that LB made a mistake are fightin words around here...

Another note: I dont think anyone, not ot one single person, predicted Mo Taylor would do this good. He was an integral piece in the last 4 wins. If it wasn't for LB's constant shuffling, I dunno if we would've found this new MoT.

I never predicted MT would be playing this good, but he has had some very good stretches in his career before. In fact he was starting for the Rockets last year until he got injured. I have been saying for while now that MT is not nearly as bad a player as some around here make him out to be.

larry was playing guys based on their hometowns.
But he can do that cuz he has a winning history?

Larry finally sticks with a starting line-up after almost 30 games?

oh he can do that cuz he always loses when he starts out.

So now all of a sudden when he shortens the rotation and sticks with a starting line-up, and plays the rookies.....the players are buying into the system?

All the players that are playing well now were playing well in the pre-season. Mo Taylor was playing well all season. His minutes were just all over the place. Rose, Davis, and Penny should have been inactive from the start of the season. No after almost 30 games Larry figures it out?!?!?!? By now the Knicks should be cruising.....but like Marbs said it's like they finally know each other cuz of all the shuffling.

You guys can bring this up the next time we meet up for a Season opener or something........all of you guys are idiots.

Well put Eny, folks are jumping though hoops to explain everytime LB does anything. It seems they cannot imagine that he may not have had it all figured out, that it is possible that he made errors. Instead, they simply make stuff up to justify it. I still can't understand why.

***

See you all later, cult of LB!

oohah

Posted by SlimPack:

Enyspree is the only one that wanted that.

[Edited by - slimpack on 01-11-2006 6:37 PM]

I want you to realize that my feelings towards Brown has to do with the first 28 games of the season. Things did not have to be like this this year. The Knicks were never this bad. If anything the roster has gotten better compared to last year by leaps and bounds.

Now later on when the Knicks are winning and if they squeeze into the playoffs......that is Larry Brown time......I think Larry Brown is a great coach. I like his system on the court. His plays, sub patterns, etc.....

Read my sig......that explains it all. 28 games too late. Why? cuz Larry is a as shole.


[Edited by - enyspree on 01-11-2006 6:49 PM]

^I dont think Im being cult like in my view of LB, basically I just think that he shouldnt be fired. and if we get beaten out of the playoffs by 2 or 3 game, I would stick by that. anyway it looks like you and me agree that he shouldnt be fired. I guess Enyspree is the only one that wanted that.

I was not referring to you slimpack. You have been quite judicious in your opinions and how you state them so you should know that.

Enyspree is entitled to his opinion. I may disagree with LB should be fired, but that does not mean the reasons Eny feels that way are invalid.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-11-2006 6:55 PM]

In my view LB did somewhat overcoach the start of the season. He did not have to do all of the things he did. His evaluation of the players should have been done in the long camp and preseason and perhaps the 1st week. The idea of playing guys in their hometowns was just stupid. Our kids were always playing hard, if not a little out of control at times, but they always showed many of the same qualites they are showing now. Lee did get better, but I don't think he wouldn't have been working on his shot if he was playing more earlier. Lee did not deserve to start the 1st 7 games on the inactive list and then ride the bench for more games after that.

Still all the while LB was training guys like Steph, JC and Nate to be better players and better floor leaders. LB was working on the whole team to improve their understanding of the game. He really got this team to focus on the defensive end. So while I criticize him for his roster moves, his other coaching work was stellar and is showing up now. Tho I bashed LB for his crazy rotations and lineups, I also reallize that he is just what this team needs for the long haul. He's a great coach and this team will only benefit from his guidance.

so, you're angry/upset/frustrated/disappointed (pick one) that LB hurt our shot at the playoffs with his coaching strategies early in the season?

None of the above. I mght be if I thought this team had a real chance to make some noise. I have simply stated that LB took quite a while to make adjustments that many of us saw quite a bit earlier.

i guess my response would be that, as much as dolan and maybe IT are hoping for playoff $$$ and vindication, i don't think that was LB's goal at all. he brought the rebuilding rhetoric back to NY, and still talks about playing the young guys as a move for the future, not as a best-way-to-win strategy.

My feeling is that a coaches job is to win as much as he can, not establish a line of rhetoric. The 'moves for the future' approach is a good way to excuse poor play. I wonder how long all that will be acceptable to the LB zealots (Not you) should things fall into the toilet again.

do you really care that much about the playoffs? this is the first you've mentioned of it in this thread. does your entire critique of LB rests on his endangering our chances this year? if this year we didn't make it, but looked to have a promising foundation for the next 3-5 by the end of this season, would you be content or just as critical of LB? i'm not sweating this season. hey, maybe LB just wanted to make it interesting for us...

My critique of LB is based on his poor performance to begin the season. That is it. It is an observation. However I prefer that the team is as competitive as possible, and has a concrete goal to look towards in any given season.

Outside of that, I will leave all the big picture stuff to the other people.

Chances are this team will look quite different next year and all the 'building with these players' stuff will be rendered moot.

In my view LB did somewhat overcoach the start of the season. He did not have to do all of the things he did. His evaluation of the players should have been done in the long camp and preseason and perhaps the 1st week. The idea of playing guys in their hometowns was just stupid. Our kids were always playing hard, if not a little out of control at times, but they always showed many of the same qualites they are showing now. Lee did get better, but I don't think he wouldn't have been working on his shot if he was playing more earlier. Lee did not deserve to start the 1st 7 games on the inactive list and then ride the bench for more games after that.

That is a good, well thought out opinion based on facts that we all have observed. Be careful, the "LB thought police" on this board might try to string you up for it.

Still all the while LB was training guys like Steph, JC and Nate to be better players and better floor leaders. LB was working on the whole team to improve their understanding of the game. He really got this team to focus on the defensive end. So while I criticize him for his roster moves, his other coaching work was stellar and is showing up now. Tho I bashed LB for his crazy rotations and lineups, I also reallize that he is just what this team needs for the long haul. He's a great coach and this team will only benefit from his guidance.

This may all be true. And I add for the benefit of others that it does not invalidate the opinions expressed in your first paragraph.

oohah