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Larry Brown Makes an interesting point...
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martin
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1/12/2006  9:40 AM
Posted by oohah:
How are there only 2 slow starts? Every single one of those teams showed how good they actually were by their final record and all started off very slowly. Your the one that is off to a slow start. 10-18? Thats slow. 8-20? That's slow too. 11-17? Thats pretty slow if you ask me. 7-21? Theres another slow one! 16-12? A season after winning 50 games, thats pretty damn slow too. What is there not to get here?

A slow start implies that you get significantly better after a certain point. Otherwise it is simply a sh!tty season.

San Antonio 8/20 .400, after the first 28, the Spurs percentage afterwards was .290. Check the numbers.
Philadelphia 7/21 .250, after the first 28, the Sixers' percentage "improves" to .308. Slow start? No, sh!tty season.

As far as Detroit, you are again ignoring that the Pistons started the season 16/8 through November. That is a fast start! Yes they had a small losing streak of 4 games after that, but that doesn't even factor in the whole month of December where the Piston finished 19/13 with a .594 winning percentage. What is their percentage for that year? .659, but that includes when they added Rasheed Wallace and went crazy winning.

10/18 Pacers: Slow start.
11/17 Nets: Yes, a slow start

So out of 5 examples, we have two legitimate slow starts (Pacers/Nets). One Fast start(Pistons 16/8 after November or 19/13 after December, take your pick.) And 2 straight sh!tty teams (Philly/Spurs). By the way, the Spurs got much better LB's second season. The reason was...David Robinson.

I miscalculated your percentage: .400, of course that is ignoring LB's first 2 pro teams and every season of his career that was not the first with a given team.

Get it now?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-12-2006 03:13 AM]

not good enough oohah. you have redefined "slow start" in one area to sh!tty season, which is changing the parameters of the arguement. Same with the Pistons. Slow start mean slow start, ie, worse percentage in the first 28 games than the percentage during the whole season. That's the arguement nyk4ever made, you are talking something else.
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bigpimpin
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1/12/2006  9:47 AM
larry brown is just as confused about the situation as you and i are. I wouldn't put too much stock in what Brown "says" because he is known for ummm ...pulling wool

you feel me

Go Knicks!
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nyk4ever
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1/12/2006  12:01 PM
Posted by martin:


not good enough oohah. you have redefined "slow start" in one area to sh!tty season, which is changing the parameters of the arguement. Same with the Pistons. Slow start mean slow start, ie, worse percentage in the first 28 games than the percentage during the whole season. That's the arguement nyk4ever made, you are talking something else.

Thankyou Martin

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oohah
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1/12/2006  1:57 PM
not good enough oohah. you have redefined "slow start" in one area to sh!tty season, which is changing the parameters of the arguement. Same with the Pistons. Slow start mean slow start, ie, worse percentage in the first 28 games than the percentage during the whole season. That's the arguement nyk4ever made, you are talking something else.

I never defined a slow start as a sh!tty season in any area.

But if you would like to make the definition of 'slow start' a sh!tty season, that still leaves us with only two slow starts--Sixer and the Spurs.

Once again, if you want to define 'slow start' as aworse percentage for the first 28 games (Quite an arbitrary number), than the rest of the season we have at best 3 'slow starts' --I can't see how detroit starting the season 16/8 .666 can defined as a slow start. Over the first 28 of the 2004 season at 16/12 = .571 vs. their season percentage of .659...if you want to call that a slow start that is stretching the definition again. And it ignores that detroit ended the month of December 2004 19/13.

I don't see how the Sixers raising their percentage from .250 to .308 is considered recovering from a 'slow start'

Last word: I guess if a team wins .666 over their first 28 then wins .700 from there on out, you all would consider it a 'slow start'.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
martin
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1/12/2006  2:14 PM
Posted by oohah:
not good enough oohah. you have redefined "slow start" in one area to sh!tty season, which is changing the parameters of the arguement. Same with the Pistons. Slow start mean slow start, ie, worse percentage in the first 28 games than the percentage during the whole season. That's the arguement nyk4ever made, you are talking something else.

I never defined a slow start as a sh!tty season in any area.

But if you would like to make the definition of 'slow start' a sh!tty season, that still leaves us with only two slow starts--Sixer and the Spurs.

Once again, if you want to define 'slow start' as aworse percentage for the first 28 games (Quite an arbitrary number), than the rest of the season we have at best 3 'slow starts' --I can't see how detroit starting the season 16/8 .666 can defined as a slow start. Over the first 28 of the 2004 season at 16/12 = .571 vs. their season percentage of .659...if you want to call that a slow start that is stretching the definition again. And it ignores that detroit ended the month of December 2004 19/13.

I don't see how the Sixers raising their percentage from .250 to .308 is considered recovering from a 'slow start'

Last word: I guess if a team wins .666 over their first 28 then wins .700 from there on out, you all would consider it a 'slow start'.

oohah

Here you go:
Posted by oohah:

Philadelphia 7/21 .250, after the first 28, the Sixers' percentage "improves" to .308. Slow start? No, sh!tty season.

Slow start means slow start, nothing more.
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martin
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1/12/2006  2:19 PM
oohah, if I said a team won 25% of their games during a time period and then they won say 40% of their games over a later time period, would you say that the team played significantly better in the second time period?
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oohah
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1/12/2006  2:39 PM
Slow start means slow start, nothing more.

I have to disagree. A slow start implies significant improvement after the slow start. Or else it is just slow the whole time: start, middle, and end.

oohah, if I said a team won 25% of their games during a time period and then they won say 40% of their games over a later time period, would you say that the team played significantly better in the second time period?

I would. That would leave us with 2 slow starts from nyk4ever's 5 examples: Indiana and the Nets.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
martin
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1/12/2006  3:04 PM
Posted by oohah:
Slow start means slow start, nothing more.

I have to disagree. A slow start implies significant improvement after the slow start. Or else it is just slow the whole time: start, middle, and end.

oohah, if I said a team won 25% of their games during a time period and then they won say 40% of their games over a later time period, would you say that the team played significantly better in the second time period?

I would. That would leave us with 2 slow starts from nyk4ever's 5 examples: Indiana and the Nets.

oohah

no oohah, that's exactly what Philly did in their first season. they won 25% of their first 28 games and won 39.3% of their remaining games.
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oohah
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1/12/2006  3:24 PM
no oohah, that's exactly what Philly did in their first season. they won 25% of their first 28 games and won 39.3% of their remaining games.

You are right! My bad on the math. So, now we have 3 'slow starts' out of 5 examples put forth, still ignoring LB's first 2 teams, which were both pretty good, and every other year of his career.

But what can I say? If everybody wants to believe that LB's teams simply start slow, it gives him a built in excuse every year! Why did you miss the playoffs LB? "Well, we had a slow start, but look we improved by 10 percent afterwards."

And if his team does not start slow, nobody mentions it...genius!

A team should improve as a season goes on. That does not mean it is a positive thing to suck over the first portion. Folks are making this sucking into a positive. It ain't.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
fishmike
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1/12/2006  3:29 PM
A team should improve as a season goes on. That does not mean it is a positive thing to suck over the first portion. Folks are making this sucking into a positive. It ain't.
its is positive. 3 out 5 is batting .600 :)
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Bonn1997
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1/12/2006  3:31 PM
Posted by oohah:
no oohah, that's exactly what Philly did in their first season. they won 25% of their first 28 games and won 39.3% of their remaining games.

You are right! My bad on the math. So, now we have 3 'slow starts' out of 5 examples put forth, still ignoring LB's first 2 teams, which were both pretty good, and every other year of his career.
No one said that EVERY one of LB's teams started slow and finished much stronger, but compare LB's 3 out of 5 to most coaches. Probably fewer than one out of every five 1st years with a new coach have a pattern of a slow start followed by a finish of at least 15% improvement. I.e., the pattern may not occur 100% of the time for LB but still is remarkably more common for LB than for most coaches.

Bonn1997
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1/12/2006  3:32 PM
Posted by fishmike:
A team should improve as a season goes on. That does not mean it is a positive thing to suck over the first portion. Folks are making this sucking into a positive. It ain't.
its is positive. 3 out 5 is batting .600 :)

Larry should be the Yankees' DH!
martin
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1/12/2006  3:43 PM
Posted by oohah:
no oohah, that's exactly what Philly did in their first season. they won 25% of their first 28 games and won 39.3% of their remaining games.

You are right! My bad on the math. So, now we have 3 'slow starts' out of 5 examples put forth, still ignoring LB's first 2 teams, which were both pretty good, and every other year of his career.

But what can I say? If everybody wants to believe that LB's teams simply start slow, it gives him a built in excuse every year! Why did you miss the playoffs LB? "Well, we had a slow start, but look we improved by 10 percent afterwards."

And if his team does not start slow, nobody mentions it...genius!

A team should improve as a season goes on. That does not mean it is a positive thing to suck over the first portion. Folks are making this sucking into a positive. It ain't.

oohah


actually oohah, I may have even had bad math, but erred in your favor (which comes out better for me). Oh, if you do the math for each of the 5 examples, the win % for the games AFTER the first 28 is signficantly better. Someone do the stats, cause I gotta get back to my web programming.

So, instead of the 2 out of 5 you noted, it's actually 4 out of 5, meaning that we do indeed have a trend.

Case closed? anyone?
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oohah
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1/12/2006  4:36 PM
actually oohah, I may have even had bad math, but erred in your favor (which comes out better for me). Oh, if you do the math for each of the 5 examples, the win % for the games AFTER the first 28 is signficantly better. Someone do the stats, cause I gotta get back to my web programming.

So, instead of the 2 out of 5 you noted, it's actually 4 out of 5, meaning that we do indeed have a trend.

Case closed? anyone?

In order to make this case real we would have to include at least all of LB's 7 different professional teams and we really should look at every year of his career. I'm sorry, I don't have the time.

When a team plays terrible, then turns it around to play 'decent' is not a success story in my view, and it begs the question: Did the team have to be terrible in the first place?

To bring it back to the Knicks: My answer is no, the Knicks did not have to be terrible for the first 28.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Nalod
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1/12/2006  5:07 PM
Posted by oohah:
actually oohah, I may have even had bad math, but erred in your favor (which comes out better for me). Oh, if you do the math for each of the 5 examples, the win % for the games AFTER the first 28 is signficantly better. Someone do the stats, cause I gotta get back to my web programming.

So, instead of the 2 out of 5 you noted, it's actually 4 out of 5, meaning that we do indeed have a trend.

Case closed? anyone?

In order to make this case real we would have to include at least all of LB's 7 different professional teams and we really should look at every year of his career. I'm sorry, I don't have the time.

When a team plays terrible, then turns it around to play 'decent' is not a success story in my view, and it begs the question: Did the team have to be terrible in the first place?

To bring it back to the Knicks: My answer is no, the Knicks did not have to be terrible for the first 28.

oohah

Grasshopper:

Nature must follow a process of evorution in order to bring harmony and balance.

Basketball must follow fundamentals and not care about "wins" but solidify its process and do it right.

It is too easy to say the lessons need not exist. You assume Mr. Brown after 31 years, coaching college and professionals as incompetitant until he shortend the rotation. YOu see the result without credence to the process.

Chicken or the egg?

Oohah or Hall of fame Larry.

Larry.


nyk4ever
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1/12/2006  5:15 PM
Posted by martin:

actually oohah, I may have even had bad math, but erred in your favor (which comes out better for me). Oh, if you do the math for each of the 5 examples, the win % for the games AFTER the first 28 is signficantly better. Someone do the stats, cause I gotta get back to my web programming.

So, instead of the 2 out of 5 you noted, it's actually 4 out of 5, meaning that we do indeed have a trend.

Case closed? anyone?

I don't know what else you need to show someone besides the information that I provided earlier in this thread. 4 out of 5 teams is a trend if I've ever seen one. The records and the winning % through 28 games with all the NBA teams that Larry Brown has coached in his first year with that team have been dismal. After the 28 games the records and the winning %'s go up. Why? Because Larry Brown sets a foundation, just like any good coach should do, even moreso when your team is chock-full of young players. 4 out of 5 is a trend, like it or not oohah.

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oohah
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1/12/2006  5:38 PM
Grasshopper:

Nature must follow a process of evorution in order to bring harmony and balance.

Basketball must follow fundamentals and not care about "wins" but solidify its process and do it right.

It is too easy to say the lessons need not exist. You assume Mr. Brown after 31 years, coaching college and professionals as incompetitant until he shortend the rotation. YOu see the result without credence to the process.

Chicken or the egg?

Oohah or Hall of fame Larry.

Larry.

This is what I mean when I say that people around here worship LB and think he cannot make a mistake. Your whole point sounds like 'it is not for you to question' similar to in the Bible.

It was never "oohah vs. LB" That was added by you for sensationalist purposes.

I never claimed LB was not a great coach. I simply pointed out what I consider to be errors on his part.

Nalod, do you consider yourself informed enough to point out a mistake by LB? Are any of us? Why do we even discuss this game when everybody actually involved with it knows so much more?

I ask you Nalod, can you point out one thing LB has done as an error with the Knicks? Ever?

I don't know what else you need to show someone besides the information that I provided earlier in this thread. 4 out of 5 teams is a trend if I've ever seen one. The records and the winning % through 28 games with all the NBA teams that Larry Brown has coached in his first year with that team have been dismal. After the 28 games the records and the winning %'s go up. Why? Because Larry Brown sets a foundation, just like any good coach should do, even moreso when your team is chock-full of young players. 4 out of 5 is a trend, like it or not oohah.

Here is why your study is absolutely skewed:

1)You chose 28 as an arbitrary number. The slow start may have been different for different teams. You have to look in the context of when the losses or wins are mounted. Remember Detroit was 16/8 before they were 16/12 then they were 19/13. If you look at the Knicks' record now without knowing they just won 5 in a row, then they are still mired in a 'slow start' at 12/21, when they in fact have 'sped up' considerably.

2)You limited the study to only LB's first year with any given team, and you still managed to leave out his first two teams.

3)Nobody proclaimed that "LB teams always start slow in their first year" until you put forth these examples. Before that it was: "LB teams always start slow". I even read: "LB teams are always bad in their first year". But never anything about starting slow in his first year.

A true study would look at LB's teams every year. Why? Because if LB teams always have a 'slow start' in his first year, then they should always 'start fast' in subsequent years. Else, the original 'slow start' is meaningless.

Context. Completeness. That is what is missing.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-12-2006 5:40 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Bippity10
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1/13/2006  10:01 AM
ooh ahh-We all respect your opinion to disagree with the coach. We all respect your opinion of the proper way to caoach as well. You should also respect our opinion that the hall of fame coach probably has a better idea on how to build a winner than you do.

It's all opinion and should all be respected
I just hope that people will like me
Larry Brown Makes an interesting point...

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