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Let's Give IT Some Credit for the Trades He's Made
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djsunyc
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1/12/2006  11:11 AM
Posted by misterearl:

fishmike _ Isiah HIRED Larry Brown, Dolan simply signs the checks.

Whay are you so stubborn to giove credit for THAT move?


i have my whole conspiracy theories about lb dating back to june. he knew davidson wanted him gone. he knew he wanted to leave. dumars knew the whole deal. so he called up his buddy isiah and said zeke, lb's going to be available, he's all yours. isiah said ok. why else would he wait for months and months and months UNLESS he KNEW lb was going to be free from detroit? as a side gesture, both dumars and zeke agreed to bring up laimbeer's name as a possible candidate just to pump up his value some more. and then bill withdraws in order to say he was never "passed on" for the knicks' job. 3 months later, lb is the head coach of the knicks. dumars happy. zeke happy.

that's just one of my conspiracies theories.

i'll leave the curry one for another day...

and i'm not even going to get into the theory about marbury being the real zodiac killer...
AUTOADVERT
misterearl
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1/12/2006  11:16 AM
djsunyc - ever heard of "the good ol' boy network"?

If having "the hook up" helps the Knicks, good for Joe Dumars and good for Isiah.

It's about time
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/12/2006  11:17 AM
fishmike - Isiah created a pretty big mess and took on a fortune.

Mess? What mess? Isiah broke some eggs to make a cake. That's the way it is done.

Fortune - schmortune.... It ain't your money
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/12/2006  11:24 AM
>If Isiah just sticks to what he does well which is draft I feel very good about the direction of our team.

That is a comfortable means to trivialize his authority.

Just draft? How about his relationships around the league? How about the newfound respect among NBA players? What about the ability to face down the tough questions without showing his hand?

Does his apperance at practice indicate his passion for excellence or is he simply showboating?

Forget the gossip mongers for a second. Could it be that he and the always-on-edge Larry Brown actually respect each other's authority and we are the beneficiaries in the long run?

By no means is Isiah perfect. No one is.

But before just segregating his ability to the draft war room, I think one should understand the total responsibility of Team President

I'm jus sayin'
once a knick always a knick
knixphan
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1/12/2006  11:29 AM
I agree with Earl, that eggs had to be broken, and it's never pretty watching eggs breaking... but 5-0 in '06 is something Layden/Chaney/Herb/Dice/Eisley/Spoon/Deke would not be boasting right now
"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
fishmike
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1/12/2006  11:36 AM
Fortune - schmortune.... It ain't your money
its not the first time you have said that, and its a stupid thing to say. There are two little things in the NBA called the salary cap and the collective bargaining agreement. Here's a news flash. They matter. They directly affect your ability to make trades and to sign players.
Taking back bad contracts and long contracts DOES matter and has a big impact on the Knick's ability to make future moves.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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1/12/2006  11:55 AM
Did you just call me stupid?

>There are two little things in the NBA called the salary cap and the collective bargaining agreement. Here's a news flash. They matter. They directly affect your ability to make trades and to sign players.

Okay, the gloves are off Mister Know It ALL. The ability to make trades is only limited by the creativity and business-saavy of the man in charge. Isiah has totally revamped what many claimed was an IMMOVABLE roster.

You can play amateur, and I DO mean AMATEUR, GM all you want buddy boy, the salary cap does NOT stop one from making deals. Signing and trading is actually EASIER when you have more money to match salaries - putz.

Stupid is as stupid does, right?

[Edited by - MisterEarl on 01-12-2006 11:56 AM]
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/12/2006  11:59 AM
Collective bargianing agrement my azz.

Just get better basketball players.

If Isiah has done that... What, REALLY, is the problem?

Or are you just THAT much into counting beans?

Sheesh.

Yeah, I said it... It AIN'T YOUR money.
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/12/2006  12:01 PM
>Taking back bad contracts and long contracts DOES matter and has a big impact on the Knick's ability to make future moves.

That was the EXACT same thing said about the bloated contracts of Clarence Weatherspoon, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley and Travis Knight.

Gimme a break

once a knick always a knick
Nalod
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1/12/2006  12:04 PM
Posted by knixphan:

I agree with Earl, that eggs had to be broken, and it's never pretty watching eggs breaking... but 5-0 in '06 is something Layden/Chaney/Herb/Dice/Eisley/Spoon/Deke would not be boasting right now

add spree, allan, thomas, anderson, knight, etc.

I think most of those guys would be gone even if Layden was still here. Its not like they were cemented here forever!

I am forever convinced that Layden was not as stupid as advertised, nor Isiah as brilliant as was hyped either!

[Edited by - nalod on 01-12-2006 12:05 PM]
TheSage
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1/12/2006  12:11 PM
Martin-Fish good posts. Good thread
Bonn1997
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1/12/2006  12:11 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by martin:
Posted by misterearl:

Among Isiah's BEST moves was Larry Brown.

I think this is a grossly underestimated statement. Isiah's BEST move was Larry Brown.
no ifs ands or buts
Isiah created a pretty big mess and took on a fortune. Larry is fixing it right now. Isiah definatly upgraded the talent and drafted GREAT, but his trades were pretty bad in that he always overpaid. I like most of the players but he always bid against himself and pushed up the price.

I think that's false for the majority (but not all) of his trades and it's simply many of us fans sitting back saying "I would have been able to pull of the exact same trade but I wouldn't have needed to give up x, y, or z." Since you said he "always" overpaid, let's start with the Jamal Crawford trade. How did he overpay here?

Othella Harrington, Dikembe Mutombo, Trybanski, Frank Williams for
JYD and Jamal Crawford

misterearl
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1/12/2006  12:11 PM
Nalod - Where was Isiah ever hyped or hailed as brilliant?

Layden is not even worh a discussion

Last I checked people were still pissed about the Larry Bird comment / CBA thing.

Cool
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knixphan
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1/12/2006  12:14 PM
Posted by Nalod:


add spree, allan, thomas, anderson, knight, etc.

I think most of those guys would be gone even if Layden was still here. Its not like they were cemented here forever!

I am forever convinced that Layden was not as stupid as advertised, nor Isiah as brilliant as was hyped either!

[Edited by - nalod on 01-12-2006 12:05 PM]

Yeah, I'm sure Layden probably had a brain... Sometimes though, the 'fresh eye' is just a good thing for a company in need of improvement - it's all too human to become attached to a decision you made and reluctant to see another solution, (especially if it means you'd have to undo your previous one.) Some gamble moderately, some gamble aggresively, and I think Zeke's aggressive style suits fans more-
"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
fishmike
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1/12/2006  12:24 PM
That was the EXACT same thing said about the bloated contracts of Clarence Weatherspoon, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley and Travis Knight.
Luckily we can remember those days as we watch Rose, Q and James each night. Its got nothing to do with the money. Its how the flexibility affects your ability to do things. Kind of like how we missed out on Rasheed Wallace a couple years ago, because the Hawks didnt want our EXPENSIVE cap fodder. Its not being a know it all, more like common sense.
Isiah didnt magically make immovable contracts go away. He just traded them for different ones.
Getting Larry will save his job, because if he doesnt get a guy like Larry to get this group playing well your looking at a group of players far more immovable than the last.
Isiah hasnt made a single trade where he didnt overpay. As for this crap about him being president and his great people skills dont even go there. Every guy thats workED for him pretty much says the same thing. He's a snake. That's Isiah's history. He's burned a lot of bridges and is regarded as a used car salesman at best, but nobody will argue his ability to draft. Stick with what he's good at.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
LBeast
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1/12/2006  12:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Fortune - schmortune.... It ain't your money
its not the first time you have said that, and its a stupid thing to say. There are two little things in the NBA called the salary cap and the collective bargaining agreement. Here's a news flash. They matter. They directly affect your ability to make trades and to sign players.
Taking back bad contracts and long contracts DOES matter and has a big impact on the Knick's ability to make future moves.

THANK YOU. Nice to know I'm not the only Knick fan with some sanity.
misterearl
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1/12/2006  12:29 PM
Best line of the day - "Yeah, I'm sure Layden probably had a brain"

knixphan - Is there documented proof of that?

Based on the return on his transactions, NONE of which were productive, the evidence is somewhat tilted against him.

Go NY Go!

once a knick always a knick
simrud
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1/12/2006  2:16 PM
Layden sucked bigtime, but IT is only a small step up. I think NY fans deserve better. But thats just me I guess.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Bonn1997
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1/12/2006  3:21 PM
We deserve better than Brown teaching a core of Marbury, Frye, Curry, Lee, and Nate? Isiah's made his share of mistakes but I think that's a strong core overall.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 01-12-2006 3:21 PM]
Ira
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1/12/2006  3:33 PM
Posted by simrud:

Layden sucked bigtime, but IT is only a small step up. I think NY fans deserve better. But thats just me I guess.

You have to look at what he started with. Houston, Van Horn, Thomas and Ward were the aging nucleus of the slowest nba team in the last quarter century. We're younger, faster, more athletic and have some very talented players to build around and others with trade value. We've come a long way in the last two years.
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